140 replies to this topic

[Wirra]

I'll try to re-establish these photos in earlier posts but here they are grouped.

 

Courage at Warwick Farm

 

Allen in the 'Courage tub' at Easter Bathurst

 

Allen in the re-tubbed Courage car

 

Lawrence in the car he assembled, i.e. not ex Bruce McLaren

 

Costanzo (ex Lawrence Palmer) Thanks 'Vivuna'.

Edited by Wirra, 03 May 2019 - 09:43.

[Vicuna]

No ex-Palmer

[Giraffe]

[/IMG]

 

M4A-2 ...the Coombs car for Piers Courage seen today at William i'Anson.

[Ray Bell]

Is that a 're-creation' or a 'resurrection'?

Courage's car, as purchased by Niel Allen and seen in the Bathurst photo from Wirra above, was last seen in one piece by me as it emerged from the kink at Lakeside.

At the time it was somewhere over 20' above the ground, it was going backwards and it was upside down. The chrome and alloy undertray were glistening in the sun as it lost a little of its 130mph speed going through the air, but as it descended it tumbled and rolled, crunched and tore apart. The mechanicals went one way, the four corners went each in their own separate direction and the tub, torn off at the rear of the cockpit came to a standstill without any of these components attached.

The departure of the engine was responsible for the tearing of the aluminium sheeting as the roll bar stay was secure enough to tear the roll bar from its rivets in the tub, this led to all the tearing of the tub.

Subsequently a new tub was either manufactured locally or purchased from McLaren. I rather think the one painted blue above was a genuine one from McLaren, while there was definitely another tub made locally and never used for that car.

At times over the years I've seen bits and pieces from this wreck. If a suspension component was re-used it was likely to be an upright. Even the original FVA fell foul of problems and had to be replaced. I can't say about the gearbox.

So, again, is this a 're-creation' or a 'resurrection'?

[Doug Nye]

...or a 'replacement'....

 

...or a Replica...

 

DCN

[Lee Nicolle]

Grandpas axe!

[MarkBisset]

 

 

Peter Macrow in Tony Osborne’s Argo Racing M4A-1 @ the Sandown Gold Star round in September 1968

Pit Straight whistling towards Peters. Photo credit Denis Lupton

[lyntonh]

Three photos from the Warwick Farm meeting in December 1969.

Alfredo Costanzo in the Argo Racing McLaren M4A during practice.

 

First, under braking for Creek Corner.

 

Coming out of Creek Corner past the commentary box.

That looks like Ian Fergusson's Bowin P3 Ford having a rest on the infield.

Quite where that bloke is heading in the middle of an active session, facing away from the traffic, is interesting........

 

In the second session, Alfie is seen in a shot taken from Shell Bridge.

 

[Ray Bell]

The Creek Corner/Esses shot is clearly practice day...

 

I'd think it's fair to say the bloke isn't actually looking away from the traffic. He's probably just checked on cars coming from Creek, the slowest part of the circuit, before going to cross.

[MarkBisset]

Thanks Lynton,

 

All of the Argo Racing main men with the exception of Ray Gibbs are still with us.

 

Tony Osborne, well into his eighties is retired and lives in Flinders, Peter Macrow is still sharp as a tack and will happily sell you his Ralt RT5, he is still in a day or so a week in the family workshop whilst Alfie is most recently a Movie Star

 

Best wishes to all of them

 

m

[amerikalei]

Just trying to see if my image posts here.  This would be M4a chassis 10 I think based on an earlier post.  Chuck Dietrich with my parents and me, 1967.  Amey-Dietrich Racing.

 

Thank you Ray for the coaching!

Edited by amerikalei, 01 July 2022 - 14:24.

[amerikalei]

[amerikalei]

[amerikalei]

That's all I have for now, but more to come.  This was the '67 SCCA FB championship car, which performed as expected at Daytona in November.  Somewhere I have some slides from that race showing the FA cars on the banking with high wings, which seems risky.  I believe they were too draggy for the actual race and were not used.  In '68 Chuck and Martin Sellers ran new chassis, and Chuck was second in the FB national championship there, run at Riverside.  Still have the Giacometti-esque trophies from those years title races.

[SGM]

The US M4A/M4B mixup might be because the car was used in their Formula B...

Another one to race in Australia was based in Melbourne and driven by Peter Macrow and Alfie Costanzo. Allen's car (the Courage M4A), in the meantime, had a total rebuild after its crash and there was a 'spare' chassis built which featured an extension of the rear of the chassis M10 style, tapering down beside the engine to the rear crossmember.

Erol Richardson could fill us in with greater detail about the latter part of that chassis' life... rms, where are you?

There is a "McLaren M4a" in Hobart Tasmania. I believe it raced locally in the late 1970s and early 80s but has been in storage since then. From what I understand it was built up from a spare tub so I assume it is the tub mentioned by Ray?

[Ray Bell]

Possibly so...

 

The big difference, very easily spotted, is that the tub isn't full-sized behind the cockpit bulkhead. Like the McLaren M10 tub, it then tapers down.

 

Pics of the M10s on this page show what I mean:

 

https://www.oldracin...m/mclaren/m10b/

 

I'm guessing that the chassis was built by Pat Burke Racing, or possibly Tony Williams, I seem to recall that Erol Richardson's name was attached to the car at some time, possibly it was used in hillcimbs?

 

 

 

 

.

Edited by Ray Bell, 12 September 2022 - 12:58.

[Doug Nye]

The Pat Burke ex-Coombs, ex-Courage, ex-Farnsbarns & His Brother M4A was one of the Burke Collection cars entered in the first Brooks auction at Earl's Court in 1989ish.  The Collection's running cars were taken to the Chobham FVRDE test-track flanking the M3 at Longcross, Surrey. We all stood in admiring awe around that gorgeous little car, then fired it up and put the smallest member of our then team - an experienced driver - into its cockpit for filming.

 

Our cameraman set up on the inner leg of the test track, on a steep downhill section just after a very pronounced brow.  

 

We heard the car approaching, as yet out of sight, then it burst into view, full suspension droop, at probably 70-80mph.  But as it landed after that brow a rear suspension Rose joint neck failed, the left-rear wheel turned in and the car spun past us, to collect a raised brickwork manhole surround - about 18-inches tall and 4-feet wide - full in the side, between front and rear wheel.  It was a dead-stop.  Krummmppp!

 

Miraculously the driver, though decidedly shaken, escaped serious injury.  Fortunately the same can be said of the car's cast suspension uprights - then the hardest part to re-source.  

 

Upon examination of the failed Rose joint neck one could clearly see the progressive 'beach marks' of a fatigue failure.  It had been a damaged or suspect component carelessly used in previous restoration/preparation, presumably un-tested.  The remaining un-cracked material had just reached the point at which it was insufficient to resist the loads applied by that landing.  But regardless, the joint just shouldn't have been left on the car in the first place

 

After some reflex phone calls, arrangements were made and so - around four hours after standing on the apron at Longcross admiring this little jewel - three of us were helping Mo Gomm's panel-shop staff drill out the rivets on the damaged side and peeling the tub apart.  I spent the next 24 hours hurtling around the country for replacement parts, including two M4A wheels.  The rebuilt car, again looking immaculate, was hurried into Earl's Court just in time for the sale viewing, and although we had run out of time to set it up properly I remember lifting each corner to turn the wheels to the point at which each one lined up with its sister and looked right.  And in its subsequent ownership the little car reportedly ran well once properly prepared - so the Longcross near disaster (which could have been just horrible) became another chapter in its long story.

 

DCN

[Ray Bell]

Let's not forget its most famous owner-driver driver, Doug...

 

Niel Allen.

 

But the tub referenced as possibly having been built by Pat Burke Racing is not that car. It was unused for many years.

[Ray Bell]

An M4a being restored at the moment has the restorer perplexed on a couple of questions...

 

The first is, "How is the battery retained under its cover?" This is what he has so far:

 

Battery in place without cover. The pieces attached to the floor at the sides and front of the battery are exactly as in the original.

 

With cover in place. As can be seen, there is provision for the battery to come out of the hole in what becomes the seat area and has another cover over it.

 

But there's got to be something to restrain the battery, to prevent it bouncing around as the car's being driven, and that 'something' has to be removable by reaching in through the square hole. How is it done?

 

Next, the oil lines under the tub. This tub clearly shows straps hanging down to hold them, but where do they go?

 

Oil line straps. This is the best photo available, apparently, of the straps, but it doesn't show how they hold the oil lines in place.

 

Any and all comments, particularly from people who have helped run these cars, would be appreciated.

[10kDA]

An M4a being restored at the moment has the restorer perplexed on a couple of questions...

 

The first is, "How is the battery retained under its cover?" This is what he has so far:

 

Battery in place without cover. The pieces attached to the floor at the sides and front of the battery are exactly as in the original.

 

With cover in place. As can be seen, there is provision for the battery to come out of the hole in what becomes the seat area and has another cover over it.

 

But there's got to be something to restrain the battery, to prevent it bouncing around as the car's being driven, and that 'something' has to be removable by reaching in through the square hole. How is it done?

 

 

Any and all comments, particularly from people who have helped run these cars, would be appreciated.

If it was up to me I'd build in a "pad" or "stop" on the inside of the removeable cover that would keep the battery in place when the removeable cover was secured. Not saying that's how it was done but it would eliminate an additional component. If you wanted the battery to remain in place in the event of a crash or whatever, fasteners used to secure the cover would need to be up to the estimated loads. As always YMMV.

[amerikalei]

Ray, do you know the history of the car under restoration?  Somewhere, long ago, I recall a set of walk around photos my father took of the M4A we had in '67, the Chuck Dietrich FB SCCA National Championship winner that year.  If this is the same car it might be worth making another effort to locate them.  I recall Allen Brown mentioned that car might be in Australia about a decade ago.  They were black and white but might help.

[Ray Bell]

It's not that car, I am certain it's never  been to America...

 

The owner does know of another car in Australia, I will ask about that.

[MarkBisset]

 

 

AGP historics tent 2022.

 

McLaren M4A Lotus-Ford twin-cam. No idea of the owner or chassis number and I gave the programme the fate it merited at the end of the weekend…

[Ray Bell]

That car is obviously a Trojan build...

 

Probably at Phillip Island this weekend?

 

If someone could get the chassis number it would be good, amerikalei would obviously appreciate it.

 

And a quick look to see how the details I've asked about were taken care of would be great.

[cooper997]

55 McLaren is listed to Nick Argyrou in the 2022 AGP programme.

 

 

Stephen.

[Ray Bell]

Where is he from, Stephen?
 
Is he likely to be there this weekend?
 
Meantime, I have found a pic showing the oil lines:
 

Aftermath. This was the biggest single-car crash I've ever seen in person. One helper was supporting Niel Allen's head as others look at whether or not they should release him from what's left of the M4a tub. Anyway, it shows the run of the oil lines.

[cooper997]

Ray, the AGP Historic demo list is not always a good reference point of who is owner and driver. They can sometimes be one or other. The McLaren 'owner' is not known to me, so not sure where it's from and if it appears on my radar at Phillip Island then I shall see what I can find out.

 

 

Stephen

[Librules]

Ray, the AGP Historic demo list is not always a good reference point of who is owner and driver. They can sometimes be one or other. The McLaren 'owner' is not known to me, so not sure where it's from and if it appears on my radar at Phillip Island then I shall see what I can find out.

 

 

Stephen

I've browsed the Island Historics entry list a couple of times (on the VHRR website)  but can't see any M4a's listed.

[Ray Bell]

I'm a bit surprised that there's been nobody who's been connected with these cars in their heyday has posted...

 

Looking at cutaway drawings I have found online, it seems that the battery location - and therefore its means of restraint - is the same on the M7.

[frnkeore]

I'm a bit surprised that there's been nobody who's been connected with these cars in their heyday has posted...

 

Looking at cutaway drawings I have found online, it seems that the battery location - and therefore its means of restraint - is the same on the M7.

It's not to unusual to me. Most of the guys are dead now. I'm 79, Ron Pohl and Gary Jarlson (I don't remember them by name) must also be in my age range.

 

I was also a Atlantic racer, between '73 and '79 and a friend of Chuck Willis. Chuck helped me immensely with my engines. His Mk 4 was stored above the office area, in his shop and as a matter of fact, Chuck sold me the wing off of it, as he raced it and I still have it. Not original to the car, of course.

 

Mike Lewis was his step son, that took over the business and would have sold the Mk 4. I sold my Brabham to him and another guy, in about '84. I don't think Mike cared about anything but money.

 

Regarding a Mk 5 transaxle, in his Mk 4, that could have been a possibility. When talking about switching to a BD engine, in my car, he suggested that I keep my Mk 5 because, he thought it was strong enough and it would be about 80lb lighter. It was my since that he had used one in his car.

 

I think Marc Bahner (805-499-7301) might be your best hope at info on Chucks car and any specs or info on a Mk 4. He's probably restored one. I haven't talked to him in a few years but, I think he's still in business. He was in the same row of shops as Chuck and Wilbur Bunce (Wilbur has pasted), it was a Formula car Mecca, in those days.

[GreenMachine]

Nice first post, please don't wait another four years for your second!!   

[Ray Bell]

Frank, and I'm assuming your name is Frank, I'm most grateful for your response...

 

I've phoned the number, reaching Marc's son Jon, and sent an e.mail to them to see if there's any recollection that will help.

[frnkeore]

Thanks Ray, your very welcome. Glad to help.

 

I'm not a expert on F/B or Atlantic cars, I only owned one but, loved redesigning it, in the years that I raced it. It was sold to me as a Brabham18/21, with a Mk 13 engine. Chuck upgraded the head to a Vegantune and then I bought a Big Valve Hart, that he help guide me on rebuilding but, as you can see, it doesn't look like a BT18, in my avatar.

 

I joined this forum 4 years ago, to respond to this thread but, never got around to it, until now, when I got a Email notice of a new post.

 

My only knowledge is some of the things that went on in that group. I got to become friends with Chuck, Marc and Wilbur (Bob Snow, also) and some very good drivers, including Pete Halsmer and Danny Ongias. Memory's I will cherish, forever. I do still follow F1 and Indy Car.

Edited by frnkeore, 08 March 2024 - 01:09.

[Ray Bell]

The Hart variation took the power levels up a bit...

 

But from memory there was almost zero clearance as the valve heads passed each other on their overlap. Very touchy to set up and subject to strict rev limits.

[E1pix]

It's not to unusual to me. Most of the guys are dead now. I'm 79, Ron Pohl and Gary Jarlson (I don't remember them by name) must also be in my age range.

I was also a Atlantic racer, between '73 and '79 and a friend of Chuck Willis. Chuck helped me immensely with my engines. His Mk 4 was stored above the office area, in his shop and as a matter of fact, Chuck sold me the wing off of it, as he raced it and I still have it. Not original to the car, of course.

Mike Lewis was his step son, that took over the business and would have sold the Mk 4. I sold my Brabham to him and another guy, in about '84. I don't think Mike cared about anything but money.

Regarding a Mk 5 transaxle, in his Mk 4, that could have been a possibility. When talking about switching to a BD engine, in my car, he suggested that I keep my Mk 5 because, he thought it was strong enough and it would be about 80lb lighter. It was my since that he had used one in his car.

I think Marc Bahner (805-499-7301) might be your best hope at info on Chucks car and any specs or info on a Mk 4. He's probably restored one. I haven't talked to him in a few years but, I think he's still in business. He was in the same row of shops as Chuck and Wilbur Bunce (Wilbur has pasted), it was a Formula car Mecca, in those days.

Very nice to see your posts!

Did you race at the Runoffs in the ‘70s? If so, I’d know who you are.

By Bob Snow, do you mean the guy who raced in D Sports Racer?

Gary Jarlson posts on the ApexSpeed site from time to time, and Ron Pohl used to post here. I worked in the P1 shop the week before the Long Beach GP in ‘83 and spent some quality time with Wilbur, he was a lovely guy and we were both mutual friends with Bob Lazier. I sold some prints to Danny Ongais in 1976, I was 16 and he was awesome.

Please stick around, it’s rare and great to read posts like yours from the day!

Edit: It is my understanding that Marc Bahner is indeed still in business.

Edited by E1pix, 08 March 2024 - 04:07.

[Ray Bell]

Yes he is, with his son Jon...

 

Tomorrow I'd expect a message saying, "Hell, man, I don't remember that!" or maybe, "It's only a hazy outline, but..."

 

The other person who should know is Wally Wilmott, I guess. Does anyone have contact with him (I think he's still around...)?

[Catalina Park]

Wally Wilmott died a couple of years ago (2019).

I did look at an M4 in Wally Story's Greenacre workshop in the 1990s. I don't know who owned the car.

[Ray Bell]

Thanks, Michael...

 

That blows that. And obviously I'd forgotten his passing.

[frnkeore]

No, I never ran any run offs. I was just a club racer and ran at Riverside, Willow Springs and Ontario Motor Speedway. 

 

Yes, Bob Snow, the long time D/SR of Snows Garage in Orange, CA. Orange was my home town and I actually worked for The City of Orange when I raced. I was a low buck racer and used my income tax return, full time school, GI benefits and a $100 a pay day to race on. I took a second out, on my house to get started. Remember, that's when a dollar was worth much more. Best thing I ever did for myself!

 

My first drivers school was Danny's second at Willow Springs, in Nov of '73. He was starting to get his license for F5000. Carol Smith was the wrench on his Lola 300, both supplied by Parnelli. If you were at the Riverside race, in the Summer of '78, where the tow truck, turned Ted Fields Lola over, on the straight (twin to Danny's car), I was there. I was on the cool down lap, going by, when it happened.

 

I last talked to Wilbur, when he was wrenching NASCAR Truck's, before he went back East. He wrenched Howdy Holmes F/B car, when I first started. He liked Howdy, a lot and had a few "story's" about him .

 

The Hart variation took the power levels up a bit...

 

But from memory there was almost zero clearance as the valve heads passed each other on their overlap. Very touchy to set up and subject to strict rev limits.

Yes, the BV Hart was the top of the twin cam HP level. Chuck dynoed mine at 195 HP @ 8000. Injected ones were suppose to be close to 205 HP. As I said, I had to rebuild mine and I had to make my valves they were made from cut down, Jaguar valves.~1.75 intakes x 1.44 Ex. They did came close to each other and the LSA was 102°. I shifted at up to 8500 in 2nd & 3rd, 8k in 4th & 5th and geared for 8k on the short Riverside straight, same gearing for Willow.

 

Marc is a workaholic and he worked for a after market motorcycle parts company, in those days. After a practice on Sat and after a race, it was common that he would be in his shop, working on someones broken formula car, into the wee hours and wasn't home much after he got off his job. The wife and kids would bring him something to eat, a lot of times. Also, he built many of the sand bent, F/B and F/A headers for the SoCal guys.

[Ray Bell]

We had quite a number of Hart versions of the Twin-Cam come here...

 

I recall talk of about 210hp with the best of them. Paul Hamilton, who posts on here, had one in an Elfin 600, he ran it for several years.

 

Before you discount your experiences, however, let me tell you that I think anyone who ran a Brabham with an engine of that nature was going racing pretty seriously.

[E1pix]

No, I never ran any run offs. I was just a club racer and ran at Riverside, Willow Springs and Ontario Motor Speedway.

Yes, Bob Snow, the long time D/SR of Snows Garage in Orange, CA. Orange was my home town and I actually worked for The City of Orange when I raced. I was a low buck racer and used my income tax return, full time school, GI benefits and a $100 a pay day to race on. I took a second out, on my house to get started. Remember, that's when a dollar was worth much more. Best thing I ever did for myself!

My first drivers school was Danny's second at Willow Springs, in Nov of '73. He was starting to get his license for F5000. Carol Smith was the wrench on his Lola 300, both supplied by Parnelli. If you were at the Riverside race, in the Summer of '78, where the tow truck, turned Ted Fields Lola over, on the straight (twin to Danny's car), I was there. I was on the cool down lap, going by, when it happened.

I last talked to Wilbur, when he was wrenching NASCAR Truck's, before he went back East. He wrenched Howdy Holmes F/B car, when I first started. He liked Howdy, a lot and had a few "story's" about him .


Yes, the BV Hart was the top of the twin cam HP level. Chuck dynoed mine at 195 HP @ 8000. Injected ones were suppose to be close to 205 HP. As I said, I had to rebuild mine and I had to make my valves they were made from cut down, Jaguar valves.~1.75 intakes x 1.44 Ex. They did came close to each other and the LSA was 102°. I shifted at up to 8500 in 2nd & 3rd, 8k in 4th & 5th and geared for 8k on the short Riverside straight, same gearing for Willow.

Marc is a workaholic and he worked for a after market motorcycle parts company, in those days. After a practice on Sat and after a race, it was common that he would be in his shop, working on someones broken formula car, into the wee hours and wasn't home much after he got off his job. The wife and kids would bring him something to eat, a lot of times. Also, he built many of the sand bent, F/B and F/A headers for the SoCal guys.

As luck would have it, I just now saw a post from Gary about Mike Gilbert, who just died:
https://www.apexspee...ed=1#post662574

I sent him a Private Message with my contact info about your post. If I can help reconnect you guys, I’d be happy to.

You might appreciate some comments made on Danny Ongais’ thread, with some of my photos when I was barely 16:
https://www.apexspee...-Flyin-Hawaiian

And some comments when Wilbur passed, including mine:
https://www.apexspee...24-Wilbur-Bunce

Please let me know if I can help, and Thanks for your posts here.

Edited by E1pix, 10 March 2024 - 03:52.