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Lowe: Tracks rather than cars need to be altered to encourage overtaking


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#1 D.M.N.

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 17:03

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8307309.stm

One of the key figures charged with boosting overtaking in Formula 1 has said altering corners on tracks, rather than the cars, may be the way forward.

Rule changes for 2009 cars aimed at increasing the sport's most thrilling spectacle have been mostly ineffective.

But McLaren engineering director Paddy Lowe, part of the Overtaking Working Group, sees an alternative solution.

"Why shouldn't all corners have the features drivers can so easily pinpoint to improve opportunities?" he said.

One of three lead members of the OWG, first set up by motorsport's governing body the FIA in 2007, Lowe admitted that body work changes to 2009 cars have not had the effect that F1 so desires.

"It hasn't been a huge success, but it hasn't been a huge failure," he told BBC Sport on Wednesday.

With Lowe also of the firm belief that aerodynamic downforce, which enables cars to produce their top speeds, is likely to be reduced in the near future for safety reasons, he insists that further future car development cannot significantly improve overtaking.

"[It will] keep overtaking in a domain similar to where it is today," he added.

"The benefits will come principally in looking at circuits.

"We were talking about this the other day with Martin Whitmarsh [McLaren team boss]. As he said, if you go to circuit and ask a driver where he can overtake, he will say 'well, there is only one place where I might be able to do it and it's here'.

"All the drivers will agree on that same corner, there is no dispute on that point.

"So, if you follow the logic of that, really we should be looking at 'OK, why shouldn't all corners have the features that drivers can so easily pinpoint to improve opportunities at circuits as whole'."

The introduction of an energy-boost [Kers] button for this season has helped deliver some overtaking - but only simple manoeuvres over long straights and not around corners - while just Ferrari and McLaren now regularly use it after its uptake rapidly dropped away.

Adjustable wings were also introduced for 2009, but their impact on overtaking manoeuvres has been almost negligible.


I'm going to have to disagree with Paddy Lowe here. How are they going to change circuits to encourage overtaking? More chicanes in 'no mans land' - like the 'failed chicane' at Barcelona? If you ask me, the cars need to be adjusted rather than the cars. Braking distances need to be increased again, they are so small nowadays that there is no wonder that cars cannot overtake.

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#2 cordell777

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 17:06

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8307309.stm
I'm going to have to disagree with Paddy Lowe here. How are they going to change circuits to encourage overtaking?

Symmetric "left/right -> join" track sections would be cool :up:,

all good

Edited by cordell777, 14 October 2009 - 17:06.


#3 undersquare

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 17:06

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8307309.stm



I'm going to have to disagree with Paddy Lowe here. How are they going to change circuits to encourage overtaking? More chicanes in 'no mans land' - like the 'failed chicane' at Barcelona? If you ask me, the cars need to be adjusted rather than the cars. Braking distances need to be increased again, they are so small nowadays that there is no wonder that cars cannot overtake.


Totally agree. Obviously as a car guy Paddy thinks it would be easier to let the circuits do the work :lol: .

Less aero, more power, it's that simple.

#4 Mauseri

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 17:09

it's so obvious that the aerodynamic rules need adjustment. It cant be that overtaking is much easier in GP2 than in F1.

-scarp the double diffusers, or rather diffusers alltogether
-improve the efficiency of ground effect
-standard rear wing elements, wide and bulky design

#5 Gareth

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 17:10

I think the suggestion that circuits can be improved, so there are more "overtaking" corners, is a good one. But it shouldn't (IMO) be at the exclusion of rules on car design that will reduce the "dirty air" effect. Both should be happening, IMO.

#6 BRK

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 17:10

I don't understand,then,how GP2 cars run at the exact same tracks produce much better racing. GP2 is beyond being a spec series,now: some cars are better than the rest-surely the cars in F1 are the major factor for a lack of overtaking?

Basically,throwing in the best drivers and technology in the world and shitloads of money can only go down one route. F1's always been this way,not a problem with me.

#7 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 17:12

It's the cars, pure and simple. They cannot run close enough to each other to provide the opportunity to make the pass.


(of course DOF will say the drivers need to move over)

#8 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 17:17

I don't understand,then,how GP2 cars run at the exact same tracks produce much better racing. GP2 is beyond being a spec series,now: some cars are better than the rest-surely the cars in F1 are the major factor for a lack of overtaking?

Basically,throwing in the best drivers and technology in the world and shitloads of money can only go down one route. F1's always been this way,not a problem with me.

True.

GP2 and F1 at the same tracks on the same week end shows that its not the tracks that are the problem.

#9 Don_Humpador

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 17:18

"OK, why shouldn't all corners have the features that drivers can so easily pinpoint to improve opportunities at circuits as whole."


Er.. What? Paddy wants every corner to be an overtaking opportunity? Wouldn't that mean that the whole of the Esses at Suzuka would be scrapped? And other such similar pieces?

Here's an idea Paddy. Let's just go to some NASCAR tracks, and every corner will be an overtaking opportunity.

As previously said, it's aero, brakes, engines first, then we can see about changing the tracks.

#10 domhnall

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 17:35

True.

GP2 and F1 at the same tracks on the same week end shows that its not the tracks that are the problem.


Yeah but remember in gp2 you've got plenty of drivers who are either out of their depth or just barely keeping up with the cars.

I do agree though that the cars need to be changed. The reason there's only 1 overtaking spot at most tracks is of course because of the nature of the cars.

#11 Atreiu

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 17:59

One MUST disagree with him. Look no further than Bahrain. From turn 11 to turn 4 there are three consecutive straights (one over 1km long) which are very wide and both beginning and ending in slow corners. And yet we see very little overtaking there. I dare find a single person who says Bahrain is not overtaking friendly.

The problem obviously lies within the cars, which can neither follow each other closely through the corners nor overpower one another down the straight to overtake.

Even Hungaroring and Jerez, which were even tighter and slower back in 1986, provided close racing and overtaking.

I just wonder what Lowe has been smoking or drinking lately.

Edited by Atreiu, 14 October 2009 - 18:02.


#12 noikeee

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 18:09

What does he want, every circuit to be made of only 1km long straights and hairpins?

#13 Gemini

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 18:12

This is the most radiculous opinion from F1 professional I read in a long time. What doe he want? for 1 km straights connected with 4 90 degree corners?

Spec engines
Spec tyres
Spec electronics

Aero changes negated by smart diffusers

And short braking distances due to slick tyres.

Yeah, it's tracks that are at fault. LOL

Edited by Gemini, 14 October 2009 - 18:13.


#14 le chat noir

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 18:17

there is the point though, that as each car is unique to the team, each team will build that car to be able to run close to the car in front (good) but also disturb as much air as possible to prevent competition running close behind it.

short of a spec formula, or the most stringent of dimensions to build in, there's nothing to do about that. and it can only be beneficial for track designers to bear in mind the need to allow several overtaking spots in their designs. you wouldn't want them building another monaco really now would you if overtaking is the be all and end all - oh look here's valencia and singapore.

#15 stevvy1986

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 18:24

If you ask me, the cars need to be adjusted rather than the cars.


Couldn't help but notice that :) to be honest though the cars need changing (aero especially), but equally some of the tracks could be with tweaks here and there. Not every corner of every track as an overtaking opportunity, and we don't want to go from 1 extreme (hardly any overtaking) to the other (so much overtaking that it's so easy as to not be exciting), but we do need a few more opportunities. Some tracks it's debatable as to whether they even have 1 opportunity to pass, let alone 2, 3, 4 or whatever.

#16 jez6363

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 18:37

I agree that the tracks could be changed to make a big difference in overtaking, but the reasoning, AS STATED in the report, seems to be nonsense.

No matter what the track, every driver will of course (mainly) agree on the best corner - it means nothing about it being a good overtaking corner - just that when the drivers put them in order, and pick the best one, they come to the same conclusion - usually they are picking the best of a very bad bunch..

Its also obviously totally impractical to make corners all the same.

However, I think that it is unfair to assume Lowe doesn't have some good thinking behind the claim.

It would be interesting to see an analysis of the good overtaking corners - across all tracks, grouped by high / mid / low downforce circuits.

Then maybe some sort of pattern would emerge, such as that low downforce circuits favour overtaking on sharp bends, or that high downforce circuits favour overtaking at the end of a straight following a set of fast bends.

Then you could selectively tighten / open up some corners, to improve overtaking.

Also maybe you could do things to the track surface to get some similar effects (that spraygrip idea I keep on referring to - continuously vary the grip across the corner in a way that generates multiple racing lines).

#17 DOF_power

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 11:35

http://www.formula1....9/10/10083.html


But then I don’t think we should expect miracles. The performance of the cars is at historically close levels, so that is also a negative for a driver overtaking.
...
.
.
I personally think that the benefits will come by looking at circuits. We were talking about this only the other day with (McLaren team principal) Martin Whitmarsh, and he made quite an obvious statement that is also quite meaningful. If you go to a circuit and you ask a driver where he can overtake he will say, ‘there’s only one place where I might be able to do it and it is here.’ All the drivers will agree on that same corner. So if you follow the logic of that, we should be asking why all corners can’t have the features that drivers can so easily pinpoint to improve opportunities.





Well they've been messing with the circuits ever since the 1970s. All the great slipstream tracks have been modified or eliminated.
Just look at Monza before the chicanes and afterward.

#18 DOF_power

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 11:48

One MUST disagree with him. Look no further than Bahrain. From turn 11 to turn 4 there are three consecutive straights (one over 1km long) which are very wide and both beginning and ending in slow corners. And yet we see very little overtaking there. I dare find a single person who says Bahrain is not overtaking friendly.

The problem obviously lies within the cars, which can neither follow each other closely through the corners nor overpower one another down the straight to overtake.

Even Hungaroring and Jerez, which were even tighter and slower back in 1986, provided close racing and overtaking.

I just wonder what Lowe has been smoking or drinking lately.




But Bahrain holds the record of dry weather passes in 2006.
There where 34 passes in 2006, 18 in 2007, 13 in 2008 and 15 in 2009.

But that was before the spec tires, frozen engines and spec electronics.

#19 Clatter

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 11:53

I think the suggestion that circuits can be improved, so there are more "overtaking" corners, is a good one.


But isn't this something all the new Tilkedromes are supposed to have accounted for?

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#20 MegaManson

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 11:53

GP2 is basically kamikaze racing a lot less professional than F1 on track with inferior drivers, F1 should not be looking at GP2 for inspiration

I agree on the whole with Lowe, designs need to be changed and get rid of these bloody "Senna S's" (a total insult to the guys name as he was a hard racer)

#21 Kucki

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:00

Aero-Grip dependence of the car doesnt allow to get close enough to the car infront to get a chance to overtake. Every driver and there mothers says this. Everybody knows thats the main issue (except for Ogami Musashi)

Edited by Kucki, 20 October 2009 - 12:02.


#22 BRK

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:02

Maybe the drivers can only point out the corners they could overtake at given the nature of the cars they have at their disposal? Maybe they would be ready to overtake anywhere on the track if they had cars better suited for overtaking?!



This soft of kiddish logic leads nowhere,really. They've tried changing the cars,so are now going to mess around with the tracks,for the heck of it. That won't work,so let's get to work on the drivers instead. Or introduce inane ideas like reversed grids and driver swapping. I don't think they realize this sort of tinkering not only leads to dead ends,but pollutes the sport and leaves a trail of garbage behind. Like the silly looking cars we've had this year,or maybe neutered stop-go circuits devoid of any 'real' corners in the future.




#23 DOF_power

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:04

According to cliptheapex.com:

Brazilian Grand Prix 2009

Total overtakes: 25
Drivers: most overtaking moves: Heikki Kovalainen (5), Jenson Button (4), Lewis Hamilton (4), S. Vettel (3)
Most times overtaken: Jaime Alguersuari (5), Romain Grosjean (5), Giancarlo Fisichella (4)



So 4 drivers where responsible for 2/3 of the passing because they qualified badly, and 2 rookies where responsible 40% of those being passed.

So to increase overtaking F1 needs more top drivers-cars that qualify poorly and more "meat cannon" rookies (and maybe pay-as-you-go/rent-a drivers).


#24 wingwalker

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:08

Leave the track alones. With that logic a perfect track would consist of a straight, then a tight left hairpin, another straight, tight left hairpin, straight etc. with a chicane and a left or right hander co connect the ends.

Cars can hardly follow each other (altough it is a bit better this year imo, get rid of double decker diffs!) but a bit less talked thing is rev limit and engine 'freeze' rules working towards equalizing engines take the straight line speed differential away and this were overtaking happens: at the end of the straights.

#25 DOF_power

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:09

Aero-Grip dependence of the car doesnt allow to get close enough to the car infront to get a chance to overtake. Every driver and there mothers says this. Everybody knows thats the main issue (except for Ogami Musashi)




That's not true.
Speedcar didn't have aero issues, but they did have little passing due to drivers waving the cars all over the track/blocking and braking in the last moment. They also suffered from marbles/trunking due to the cars sliding and due to wheelspin. That's not counting that all the cars where the same and that they hit the rev limiters.

Champcar had actually better races then Speedcar for most part, those venturi tunnels produced a lot of downforce compared to the Speedcar NASCAR "twisted sisters".

Edited by DOF_power, 20 October 2009 - 12:11.


#26 DOF_power

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:11

Leave the track alones. With that logic a perfect track would consist of a straight, then a tight left hairpin, another straight, tight left hairpin, straight etc. with a chicane and a left or right hander co connect the ends.

Cars can hardly follow each other (altough it is a bit better this year imo, get rid of double decker diffs!) but a bit less talked thing is rev limit and engine 'freeze' rules working towards equalizing engines take the straight line speed differential away and this were overtaking happens: at the end of the straights.




True, the engine freeze and rev limit is horrendous.

#27 MegaManson

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:11

According to cliptheapex.com:

Brazilian Grand Prix 2009

Total overtakes: 25
Drivers: most overtaking moves: Heikki Kovalainen (5), Jenson Button (4), Lewis Hamilton (4), S. Vettel (3)
Most times overtaken: Jaime Alguersuari (5), Romain Grosjean (5), Giancarlo Fisichella (4)



So 4 drivers where responsible for 2/3 of the passing because they qualified badly
, and 2 rookies where responsible 40% of those being passed.

So to increase overtaking F1 needs more top drivers-cars that qualify poorly and more "meat cannon" rookies (and maybe pay-as-you-go/rent-a drivers).


And 9 of those overtakes were due to KERS which is artificial racing

#28 Clatter

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:12

That's not true.
Speedcar didn't have aero issues, but they did have little passing due to drivers waving the cars all over the track/blocking and braking in the last moment. They also suffered from marbles/trunking due to the cars sliding and due to wheelspin. That's not counting that all the cars where the same and that they hit the rev limiters.

Champcar had actually better races then Speedcar for most part, those venturi tunnels produced a lot of downforce compared to the Speedcar NASCAR "twisted sisters".


What's trunking?

#29 DOF_power

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:26

What's trunking?




What does that mean ?!

#30 DOF_power

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:26

And 9 of those overtakes were due to KERS which is artificial racing




No it's not.


#31 Clatter

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:29

What does that mean ?!


You said marbles/trunking, I've never heard of trunking.

#32 wingwalker

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:32

Trunking:
Posted Image

#33 Clatter

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:33

Trunking:
Posted Image


Nah, that's a boot.

#34 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:34

Theres a reason T1 at Brazil has seen more overtaking than nearly any other corner in recent history. Its the combination of a long straight out of a slow tricky corner (Juncqao) but more importantly it is a multiple line corner. Its just as fast and grippy taking an early apex as it is leaving it out wide and cutting back in as we saw with MS in 06 and Jenson this year and many many others. We need more corners like this in F1. I believe it is most achievable by cambering the corners so the outside allows more speed to be carried relative to the inside but evened out by the longer distance. A base philosphy of oval track design I believe to improve racing. This would also reduce the marble effect offline as more cars would run multiple lines keep more of the track clean.

This isnt something that can be applied to existing tracks easily but should be considered in new track designs and rebuilds.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 20 October 2009 - 12:36.


#35 Clatter

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:36

Theres a reason T1 at Brazil has seen more overtaking than nearly any other corner in recent history. Its the combination of a long straight out of a slow tricky corner (Juncqao) but more importantly it is a multiple line corner. Its just and fast and grippy taking an early apex as it is leaving it out wide and cutting back in. We need more corners like this in F1. I believe it is most achievable by cambering the corners so the outside allows more speed to be carried relative to the inside. This would also reduce the marble effect offline as more cars would run multiple lines keep more of the track clean.

This isnt something that can be applied to existing tracks easily but should be considered in new track designs and rebuilds.


Why can't it be applied to existing circuits? I'm sure Silverstone had a proposal at one point for track changes that would have included slightly banked corners to give multi-lines.

#36 Kucki

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:39

That's not true.
Speedcar didn't have aero issues, but they did have little passing due to drivers waving the cars all over the track/blocking and braking in the last moment. They also suffered from marbles/trunking due to the cars sliding and due to wheelspin. That's not counting that all the cars where the same and that they hit the rev limiters.


Are you serious? Have you watched a single Speedcar race I really wonder??? In Speedcar the cars were all over the place, slipstreaming and passing under braking, there were battles, passing, defending, running wide, bumping, there was action going on in the field all the time! They were often passing and repassing each other from corner to corner.

But eitherway Speedcar and the stockcar racing should not be what overtaking in Formula 1 and open wheel cars should be compared to. Because of the lower speeds, long brake distance, the little aero-grip dependence and the huge amount of draft the big cars generate, the tolerance on little contact, there will always be more overtaking in that motorsport area. But F1 cars ability to overtake can be compared to other forms of open wheel racing like IndyCar, GP2, or to F1's history when cars were less aero-grip dependent and it was easier to follow the car closely in the corners, slipstream and overtake.

The solution is not in KERS / Push to pass buttons and other artificial gimmicks that should have nothing to do with racing. The cars should get back to a lower aero-grip dependence and to how they used to be in the past when overtaking was much easier.

Edited by Kucki, 20 October 2009 - 12:44.


#37 weta

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:40

One of the best places to overtake is under braking, however carbon brakes have made braking distances so short it's virtually impossible to outbrake another driver unless they make an error. Personally I think carbon brakes should be banned, as a result the increased braking distances would give rise to a lot more overtaking opportunities. IMHO it's the cheapest and most logical way of resolving this issue.

#38 pingu666

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:49

I think the undulations and curve onto the start/finish straight help alot, maybe the cars produce a bigger tow when turning slightly ?

#39 johnap

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:54

I don't understand,then,how GP2 cars run at the exact same tracks produce much better racing. GP2 is beyond being a spec series,now: some cars are better than the rest-surely the cars in F1 are the major factor for a lack of overtaking?


:up: You've got it, I've got it, a lot of people have got it, the Overtaking Working Group...hasn't

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#40 BlackCat

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:58

remove chicanes. dangerous? make stronger cars.

#41 marcm

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 13:01

One of the best places to overtake is under braking, however carbon brakes have made braking distances so short it's virtually impossible to outbrake another driver unless they make an error. Personally I think carbon brakes should be banned, as a result the increased braking distances would give rise to a lot more overtaking opportunities. IMHO it's the cheapest and most logical way of resolving this issue.


Banning carbon brakes wouldn't increase braking distances. It has been mentioned several times by team engineers that steel discs would give similar braking distances .. the main advantage of carbon brakes is the weight (or lack of - particularly as this is an unsprung mass)



#42 DOF_power

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 13:11

Banning carbon brakes wouldn't increase braking distances. It has been mentioned several times by team engineers that steel discs would give similar braking distances .. the main advantage of carbon brakes is the weight (or lack of - particularly as this is an unsprung mass)




Not only that but they also don't expand and contract like steel brakes.
When carbon brakes where first tested and used in the late 70s it was because the some of steel brakes expanded to the point they broke the rims, thus causing retirments. F1 cars back then where in the ground-effect and turbo era and thus their brakes where far more stressed then on other racecars.

I think some people need to understand that GP racing was always different. Touring car races and/or motorcycle races provided far more entertainment historically then GP races.

#43 noikeee

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 13:15

GP2 is basically kamikaze racing a lot less professional than F1 on track with inferior drivers, F1 should not be looking at GP2 for inspiration

I agree on the whole with Lowe, designs need to be changed and get rid of these bloody "Senna S's" (a total insult to the guys name as he was a hard racer)


Lol, the Senna S is the one place where we did see passing lately.

#44 noikeee

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 13:18

I don't understand,then,how GP2 cars run at the exact same tracks produce much better racing. GP2 is beyond being a spec series,now: some cars are better than the rest-surely the cars in F1 are the major factor for a lack of overtaking?

Basically,throwing in the best drivers and technology in the world and shitloads of money can only go down one route. F1's always been this way,not a problem with me.


Wait a minute there. You're saying that the reason why GP2 has more passing is because the cars are more different between each other than the F1s??? :drunk:

#45 Kucki

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 13:21

In GP2 we see the racing has been better with the old less aero-grip producing chassis

#46 wingwalker

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 13:23

I think the undulations and curve onto the start/finish straight help alot, maybe the cars produce a bigger tow when turning slightly ?



I think what helps is a breaking zone forcing drivers to trail break all the time, just like in Interlagos in T1. If you look at Button, Kubica or Hamilton (from previous years) moves, they were able to put their car in front with quite a margin, something which is rarely seen even on longer, but perfectly straight, breaking zone. The fact it's pretty downhill towards the end helps too.

#47 Rob

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 13:46

Sorry, this is so ridiculous it's almost impossible to believe that it comes from a professional.

#48 craftverk

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 13:54

Sorry, this is so ridiculous it's almost impossible to believe that it comes from a professional.

I know, absolute tosh if I ever heard any. And McLaren employ him...

#49 Rinehart

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 14:00

They use insanely fast cars with amazing brakes, aero set ups that are designed to disturb a following car, a points system that rewards consistency, a qualifying system that orders cars in their race pace running order and often circuits that don't allow the driver to make enough of a difference... and they're wondering why there isn't enough overtaking.

What a bunch of muppets.

#50 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 23,571 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 20 October 2009 - 14:11

I vote for active floor aerodynamics. This should allow overtaking to occur almost regardless of the circuit.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 20 October 2009 - 14:13.