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Ed Hugus, 1965 Le Mans winner...


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#1 RDV

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 09:07

Seems that some people win, but dont get the cup...from correspondence in the French site... the concerned persons account...

24 may 05
Dear Hubert

Thank you for your kind letter of may 19. It was very kind of you to remember me. Some writers have been telling me, that I have driven more times at Le Mans than any other american. I do not know this to be a fact.

Re-1965- As you know I had my own entry for the 24 hrs for many years. This year I was to drive a Ferrari of Luigi Chinetti in the race. How ever, the factory did not finish the car in time, so Luigi put me on as reserve driver on the 250 LM. During the night about 4 AM ? Masten had gone out in the LM. A lot of the famous Le Mans pea soup fog moved and Masten with his bad eye sight and very thick glasses came : could not see well. Rindt had disapeared, no one knew where, so Luigi told me to get my helmet on and go so, I finished the last hour or so of Masten part. Luigi told me many times later that he had informed the pit official about this. How ever, as Luigi said, may be they were too busy with a wine bottle behind the pits to do so. He was disapointed and so was I. Say la vie.

Again thank you. Hope this helps.

Ed Hugus


(See also= http://forums.autosp...t=#entry1605573 )

Edited by RDV, 27 October 2009 - 09:14.


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#2 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 09:31

Also discussed in these threads:

Ed Hugus RIP

(which includes the Hugus letter to Hubert Baradat) and:

1965 Le Mans-winning drivers – Huh?

#3 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 10:39

I still very much doubt this legend.

DCN

#4 AMICALEMANS

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 10:55

A kind of Le Mans Nessie.....

#5 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 10:56

I still very much doubt this legend.

DCN



Why, Doug?

#6 RA Historian

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 14:00

Why, Doug?

Indeed. I had thought that over the past several years that this has been accepted as fact. Janos Wimpffen reports it as happening in his epic tome, Time and Two Seats.. Has anything come up to discount this after this has apparently become accepted? Or is this just one of those mysteries that never will be solved?
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 27 October 2009 - 14:07.


#7 AMICALEMANS

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 14:13

Indeed. I had thought that over the past several years that this has been accepted as fact. Janos Wimpffen reports it as happening in his epic tome, Time and Two Seats.. Has anything come up to discount this after this has apparently become accepted? Or is this just one of those mysteries that never will be solved?
Tom



Janos Wimpffen reports it as happening in his epic tome, Time and Two Seats Did he prove it with any testimony from someone else than Ed Hugus himself ?

Did you remember who, when and where began this story on the web ? I am afraid than in 10 years from now we will have many similar stories... like this one or the one about Steve McQueen taking the wheel of the Solar'908 during the 1970 race.

And what about Nessie ?

#8 RA Historian

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 14:20

Janos Wimpffen reports it as happening in his epic tome, Time and Two Seats Did he prove it with any testimony from someone else than Ed Hugus himself ?

I cannot answer for Dr. Wimpffen, but I respect his reputation as an historian and researcher enough to tend to believe him!

As far as the answer, I repost what I said earlier and what I believe: "Or is this just one of those mysteries that never will be solved?"
Tom


#9 AMICALEMANS

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 14:39

I cannot answer for Dr. Wimpffen, but I respect his reputation as an historian and researcher enough to tend to believe him!

As far as the answer, I repost what I said earlier and what I believe: "Or is this just one of those mysteries that never will be solved?"
Tom



I do not doubt about Dr. Wimpffen reputation, but i simply ask if in his book, he explain who, where and when he got this information...If not maybe he knows another testimony (a real person with a real name) who saw Ed Hugus climbed in the #21 Ferrari during the race...

That is the main question and the only point.... Is there anybody else in this world who can testify that he saw Ed Hugus in the car during the race....

Same question for Steve McQueen in 1970....

#10 Haine Kane

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 16:59

I do not doubt about Dr. Wimpffen reputation, but i simply ask if in his book, he explain who, where and when he got this information...If not maybe he knows another testimony (a real person with a real name) who saw Ed Hugus climbed in the #21 Ferrari during the race...

That is the main question and the only point.... Is there anybody else in this world who can testify that he saw Ed Hugus in the car during the race....

Same question for Steve McQueen in 1970....



Hello Friends,

Another time the "wild horse" ((his real name on french forum : mustang66) know the truth.

It's very funny to read his own experience, because it's the only man who have listen, write, speak, about LE MANS.

This horse is a little bit mytho :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

#11 RA Historian

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 21:30

I do not doubt about Dr. Wimpffen reputation, but i simply ask if in his book, he explain who, where and when he got this information...If not maybe he knows another testimony (a real person with a real name) who saw Ed Hugus climbed in the #21 Ferrari during the race...

That I do not know and cannot answer. Dr. Wimpffen will have to answer that.
Tom

#12 AMICALEMANS

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 21:31

Hello Friends,

Another time the "wild horse" ((his real name on french forum : mustang66) know the truth.

It's very funny to read his own experience, because it's the only man who have listen, write, speak, about LE MANS.

This horse is a little bit mytho :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Maybe are you the one who saw Ed Hugus took the wheel ? Please do not drink and write anymore.....

So just be serious for a while... In fact, if Ed Hugus took the wheel and claimed for the victory back in 1965, it put Luigi Chinetti in trouble...and then the victory went to the #26 Ferrari.... Everybody are still interested by a real testimony....



#13 Haine Kane

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 22:13

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Maybe are you the one who saw Ed Hugus took the wheel ? Please do not drink and write anymore.....


Hello,

Mustang is a funny man, he think that he is the Historian of LE MANS, but look this man (he) with no inspiration, a pen in his mouth, looking to the computer of his neighbour... :drunk: :drunk: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 22:59

I've been sent these to put on this thread:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by Ray Bell, 27 October 2009 - 23:01.


#15 AMICALEMANS

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 23:08

If someone could explain to me what is going on on this thread... It is a little bit foolish to post a picture wich obsviously is not about the subject.... He post picture without copyright (again !) ans without the authorization of the photographer.... did you see that ! rubbish !

#16 cabianca

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 03:40

This subject has been discussed in more length here
http://forums.autosp...ugus at Le mans

Since the above thread has been posted, I have talked to a great many more people involved and my conclusion is that it never happend.

Michael T. Lynch


#17 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 03:56

Originally posted by cabianca
This subject has been discussed in more length here
[url="http://"http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=67812"]http://forums.autosp...ugus at Le mans[/url]

Since the above thread has been posted, I have talked to a great many more people involved and my conclusion is that it never happend.

What a shame Luigi Chinetti isn't still around too...

But it is the case, Michael, that not everyone is of the same view as you. Nevertheless, people will generally believe what they will believe and we can't often change that.

As for the pics I posted, they are of Ed taken on the occasion of his induction into the Watkins Glen Walk of Fame. The stone commemorates a particular win for Ed at Watkins Glen and is now embedded on the sidewalk on Franklin Street near the start/finish line of the original circuit. The man in the photo with Ed is J.C. Argetsinger, President of the International Motor Racing Research Centre. They were taken, if my best guess is correct, about three or four years ago.

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 04:19

And I've had another e.mail, this one from Michael Argetsinger...

Mike is totally convinced that Ed drove the car, he's written this to me:

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Ed filled in as a reserve driver and drove that stint. I could cite any number of good reasons why I believe this (and if you want I can give you some further thoughts on the subject) but the best reason to believe it is because Ed told me it was so.

If you knew Ed you would understand why that was enough. He was an honorable and modest man.

He never made a big deal of having driven the car -- but when the subject came up he explained the circumstances in a straight forward manner. He never tried to make capital of it and really was indifferent to the fact that some doubted him. It was not a matter of great importance to him. He knew he had done it. It was really a small footnote in a very distinguished career that included 10 starts at Le Mans.


I haven't gone into it any further with Mike, but I can put a couple of other facts before people here that would point to the likelihood that it happened.

Remember that Gregory and Rindt didn't expect to be winners. They expected much less than that and, in fact, decided to drive the car flat out regardless of the fact that it might well break.

At the time Ed Hugus is said to have got into the car, it was just about half race distance. There was still another 12 hours of racing to go. The Rindt/Gregory pact to drive it flat out no matter what still had twelve full hours to exact a terminal toll on the car. To them it wasn't important, after all, they weren't going to finish, were they?

The oversight, if that's what it was, regarding putting Ed into the car could well have upset the applecart when they did achieve a good result, so Ed's stint couldn't be mentioned at that time.

#19 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 05:37

As for the pics I posted, they are of Ed taken on the occasion of his induction into the Watkins Glen Walk of Fame. The stone commemorates a particular win for Ed at Watkins Glen and is now embedded on the sidewalk on Franklin Street near the start/finish line of the original circuit. The man in the photo with Ed is J.C. Argetsinger, President of the International Motor Racing Research Centre. They were taken, if my best guess is correct, about three or four years ago.

This induction took place in September 2004.

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#20 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 11:26


May I suggest the name of someone who quite likely could throw some additional information to verify or not Hugus´ role at the 1965 LeMans.

If anyone knows where to contact Dr MRJ (Jesse) Wylie it is quite likely that he would have some contemporary knowledge of the subject.

I was a Pittsburgh Pa resident and co-member of the Steel Cities Region of the SCCA from 1955 and raced shoulder to shoulder as well as knowing both Hugus and the Wylies til 1960 before moving to Australia. I returned to membership of the Steel Cities Region late in Sixties and through the Seventies. Unfortunately the 1965 LeMans race occurred when I was out of that loop.

However Doc Wylie was well in the loop then, knew Hugus well and most likely could/would offer his knowledge of the subject if asked.

It would be most interesting to get his view.

Regards

#21 RCH

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 12:53

As we all know the Le Mans organisers were very much opposed to changes to the nominated drivers once the race had started. Clearly if this had happened the matter would have to kept secret.

However this begs the question, did it happen to any other car at any other time?

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 13:05

The letter, however, states that this was no last-minute change...

He was entered as a reserve driver after his own car couldn't be made ready.

#23 RCH

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 13:38

The letter, however, states that this was no last-minute change...

He was entered as a reserve driver after his own car couldn't be made ready.


But even a nominated reserve couldn't be substituted once the race had started.

#24 AMICALEMANS

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 13:48

But even a nominated reserve couldn't be substituted once the race had started.


No, it was possible : in 1960 on the #30 AC Ace entered by Georges Gachnang for André Wicky and him. Georges Gachnang was a little bit injured when he spun on oil and went out of the track...when he came back to the pits, the car was ok but not this head ! So the reserve driver, Jean Gretener took the wheel and finish the race with André Wicky.

The reserve driver was able to take the wheel BUT, in this case, one of the nominated driver should not take the wheel....

Edited by AMICALEMANS, 28 October 2009 - 13:51.


#25 philippe7

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 19:06

The reserve driver was able to take the wheel BUT, in this case, one of the nominated driver should not take the wheel....


Just for the sake of clarity, may I re-phrase this a little : once the reserve driver had stepped in, one of the two original drivers could not drive again until the end of the race.


#26 AMICALEMANS

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 15:18

Just for the sake of clarity, may I re-phrase this a little : once the reserve driver had stepped in, one of the two original drivers could not drive again until the end of the race.



thanks Philippe7 ;)

#27 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 20:44

So, to rewrite the whole setting:

Hugus was sitting around helping the lapscorers etc... Gregory flies in and says he can't go on in the murk because his glasses are fogging up. "Where's Jochen?" goes out the cry.

Ascertaining that Jochen isn't to be found in the minute or so of the pit stop (I guess a refuel and quick checkover...), Ed is bundled into the car. But that now means Masten isn't allowed back into the car.

Ed, presumably, doesn't match the pace of the star drivers, so Luigi Chinetti doesn't advise the pit officials of the change of driver and then seeks to cover up Ed's placement in the car. Masten is hustled off to bed somewhere... again, presumably... and got right out of sight for the hour.

When the hour's over, Jochen turns up for his stint, Ed comes in and is hustled off as if he's Masten, though perhaps he's not told of the subterfuge going on around him. Things return to normal and the car goes on to win.

#28 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 21:01

Yeah ...... right........that's all explained then... :rolleyes:

DCN

#29 AMICALEMANS

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 09:02

So, to rewrite the whole setting:

Hugus was sitting around helping the lapscorers etc... Gregory flies in and says he can't go on in the murk because his glasses are fogging up. "Where's Jochen?" goes out the cry.

Ascertaining that Jochen isn't to be found in the minute or so of the pit stop (I guess a refuel and quick checkover...), Ed is bundled into the car. But that now means Masten isn't allowed back into the car.

Ed, presumably, doesn't match the pace of the star drivers, so Luigi Chinetti doesn't advise the pit officials of the change of driver and then seeks to cover up Ed's placement in the car. Masten is hustled off to bed somewhere... again, presumably... and got right out of sight for the hour.

When the hour's over, Jochen turns up for his stint, Ed comes in and is hustled off as if he's Masten, though perhaps he's not told of the subterfuge going on around him. Things return to normal and the car goes on to win.


A fairy tales ?


#30 Ralliart

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 11:10

If Hugus isn't going to, possibly, drive, what is he doing suited up in the middle of the night? And standing in the Chinetti pits? Ready to hop in the car, should he be needed. Rindt couldn't be found (was he asleep, waiting for his next stint, and Gregory came in sooner than planned?) And Gregory doesn't feel comfortable due to the murky conditions. Who's there? Ed Hugus. And, if Hugus wasn't involved, what was he doing in the immediate throng as the LM was pushed to parc ferme? So, he was part of the team, to the extent that he was there, suited up, helping to push the victorious car to parc ferme (or wherever it ended up). He stuck around and didn't get the next stage out of Dodge. He was rewarded by the team, in full view of the officials, the crowd and everyone else, by pushing the winning car. Part of the team. Why this reward? This public recognition? Could it be because he drove during the 24 Hours? And kept his mouth shut?

#31 Catalina Park

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 11:24

It was 1965. There was no need to suit up. Just pull on a helmet.

#32 RCH

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 13:09

I'm still not convinced that the substitution of a reserve driver was allowed after the race started. It may have happened but I would guess after considerable negotiation, probably in French. ISTR reading somewhere that Lofty England had arranged to substitute Bob Berry for Mike Hawthorn in 1955 should it be necessary but this was presumably because the ACO were desperate to keep Jaguar and Mercedes from withdrawing. I am sure I have heard of instances when such substitutions were requested but declined but cannot, of course, think of anything specific at present.

The story goes that after gearbox (?) repairs had been carried out on the car Rindt was nowhere to be seen. Gregory found him ready to leave the circuit and it was then that the pact to drive flat out was agreed. Interesting to know whether the car was circulating whilst they were having their discussions!

#33 D-Type

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 13:31

It's difficult to decide what is myth and what is fact.

The "flat out to the finish" pact, if it happened, could have taken place while the gearbox was being fixed. Either Gregory had brought the car into the pits and was looking for Rindt to take the next stint or Rindt had brought it in and decided it was beyond repair and either Gregory noticed or oneof the tem dod and told Gregory.

The Ed Hugus taking over could be a myth, but that leaves the Ed Hugus letter posted on one of the earlier threads unexplained, particularly in the light of what people who knew him had said about the type of man he was.

As it is the last Ferrari Le Mans victory it is inevitable that it attracts a certain amount of romanticism.

Personally, I believe the Ed Hugus story 100% but have reservations about the about the pact: I would say I believe it 75%.

#34 RA Historian

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 13:31

He was rewarded by the team, in full view of the officials, the crowd and everyone else, by pushing the winning car. Part of the team.

Reward? Pushing the winning car? It seems to me that as far as pushing the winning car everyone on the team who is available will do it as part of the celebration. Just like in the stick and ball sports. One team wins the title and everyone on the bench rushes onto the field and jumps on the pile. Not just those who played in that game, but all members of the team. I am afraid that your argument carries no water, at least as I see it.
Tom



#35 RCH

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 14:28

It's difficult to decide what is myth and what is fact.

The "flat out to the finish" pact, if it happened, could have taken place while the gearbox was being fixed. Either Gregory had brought the car into the pits and was looking for Rindt to take the next stint or Rindt had brought it in and decided it was beyond repair and either Gregory noticed or oneof the tem dod and told Gregory.

The Ed Hugus taking over could be a myth, but that leaves the Ed Hugus letter posted on one of the earlier threads unexplained, particularly in the light of what people who knew him had said about the type of man he was.

As it is the last Ferrari Le Mans victory it is inevitable that it attracts a certain amount of romanticism.

Personally, I believe the Ed Hugus story 100% but have reservations about the about the pact: I would say I believe it 75%.


I'm inclined to believe it did happen but would, naturally, be kept quiet. It does lead me to wonder whether a similar thing ever happened with other teams.

Regarding the pact, I suspect it is the sort of thing that the experienced long distance racer Gregory would have said to the new "hotshoe" Rindt to keep him interested. However it seems obvious to me that any team finding themselves with a healthy car but a long way back at LeMans would decide to run flat out, nothing to lose and maybe a lot to gain.

#36 SEdward

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 15:22

I think the key is that the move was in breach of the rules, which is why it was kept secret at the time and has been hushed up ever since. Especially since the car went on to win, against all expectations.

The story seems plausible to me.

Edward

#37 RA Historian

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 17:55

All very interesting, but one thing comes back to me over and over: the lack of confirmation. All this conjecture is based upon the claim of one man, Ed Hugus, who is no longer with us. I was reminded recently by one of our TNF members that any claim must have at least a second verification before it can be taken seriously. As much as I would like to see this story as true, I am not aware of any second verification of Hugus's claim whatsoever. As such, I reluctantly conclude that I cannot believe it happened until some credible witness comes forward to verify the claim of Ed Hugus. Unfortunately, until then, this will remain in the realm of a fish story, at least to me.

It certainly is plausible; the circumstances do make sense. But where is somebody, anybody, who can say it happened? Where is the proof?

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 30 October 2009 - 17:56.


#38 ZOOOM

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 20:07

To me, the most interesting part of the story is just HOW Gregory and Rindt won.
They had been given an old Ferrari to drive by Chineti and weren't supposed to be compedative at all. In fact, they had no tire contract for the race.
They apparently went to Leho Miehl from Goodyear and he reluctantly gave them some of the spare last years tires to run the race.
The tires were so out of date they couldn't really push the car as fast as it would go on good tires.
Thus they avoided the high speeds that broke all the rest of the compeditors.
I'm sure somebody here can correct my memory. Am I right?


ZOOOM

#39 MCS

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 20:53

......The story seems plausible to me.

Edward


I really want to believe this story.

But then, every December I try really hard to imagine there's actually a Father Christmas...


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#40 Tim Murray

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 21:20

To me, the most interesting part of the story is just HOW Gregory and Rindt won.
They had been given an old Ferrari to drive by Chineti and weren't supposed to be compedative at all. In fact, they had no tire contract for the race.
They apparently went to Leho Miehl from Goodyear and he reluctantly gave them some of the spare last years tires to run the race.
The tires were so out of date they couldn't really push the car as fast as it would go on good tires.
Thus they avoided the high speeds that broke all the rest of the compeditors.
I'm sure somebody here can correct my memory. Am I right?

The tyre story as told by Michael J Cox (TNF's 'Joe Fan') in Masten Gregory: Totally Fearless was that a Goodyear Vice President - Mr Hartz - had promised Chinetti a supply of tyres for the Ferrari, but hadn't told Leo Mehl, who had arrived at Le Mans with 5.000 tyres really only suitable for the big Fords. When Chinetti asked him for the promised tyres, all he could come up with were some "skinny little rain tires" which he gave Chinetti to keep him quiet. A little while later Ed Hugus came and told Mehl "They're great! They feel great. The drivers love 'em." Mehl said "Really? Are you sure?" Hugus said "Absolutely. They feel great".

#41 RCH

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 10:47

To me, the most interesting part of the story is just HOW Gregory and Rindt won.
They had been given an old Ferrari to drive by Chineti and weren't supposed to be compedative at all. In fact, they had no tire contract for the race.
They apparently went to Leho Miehl from Goodyear and he reluctantly gave them some of the spare last years tires to run the race.
The tires were so out of date they couldn't really push the car as fast as it would go on good tires.
Thus they avoided the high speeds that broke all the rest of the compeditors.
I'm sure somebody here can correct my memory. Am I right?


ZOOOM


An old Ferrari to drive? Not sure where that idea comes from, it was the second string NART entry and of course a 250LM wasn't as quick as the P2 prototypes but it was the fastest of the LMs (I think!). Regarding the tyres, I've never heard this story before, but in 1965 Goodyear would not have been first choice for racing in Europe so would have been regarded a little suspiciously maybe? Also in 1965 tyre development was not the same as now, there is no reason why last year's tyres wouldn't be as good as this year's.

Avoided high speeds? Thought that was the significant point about this win, they were (supposedly) flat out all the way.

I'm just starting to work up a little conspiracy theory regarding the 250LMs at Le Mans in '65. I note that there was a fair number running that year, yet no GTOs and just one 275GTB. As we know Ferrari was in dispute with the FIA regarding the homologation of the 250LM. Could Ferrari have been expecting the FIA to relent and accept the LM just before the race? As I say just an idea that popped into my mind so I am expecting to be shot down in flames.

#42 ERault

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 12:27

A quote from Donna Mae Mims' colomn in Competition Press, sept 18, 1965 : "Shortly before the race, Ed Hugus and John Baus were appointed team managers by Luigi, and devoted their full time to the pits, and strategy". So at least, Hugus was not just hanging around and had a good reason to be found in the NART pits in the middle of the night.

#43 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 18:11

All very interesting, but one thing comes back to me over and over: the lack of confirmation. All this conjecture is based upon the claim of one man, Ed Hugus, who is no longer with us. I was reminded recently by one of our TNF members that any claim must have at least a second verification before it can be taken seriously. As much as I would like to see this story as true, I am not aware of any second verification of Hugus's claim whatsoever. As such, I reluctantly conclude that I cannot believe it happened until some credible witness comes forward to verify the claim of Ed Hugus. Unfortunately, until then, this will remain in the realm of a fish story, at least to me.

It certainly is plausible; the circumstances do make sense. But where is somebody, anybody, who can say it happened? Where is the proof?

Tom


Maybe somebody could ask Nino Vaccarella if he remembers Hugus driving the NART 250LM in 1965? Vaccarella and Pedro Rodriguez drove a Ferrari 365 P2/0838 for the NART team to 7th overall and first in Prototipo 4001/5000.

Vince H.




#44 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 21:07

Originally posted by RA Historian
All very interesting, but one thing comes back to me over and over: the lack of confirmation. All this conjecture is based upon the claim of one man, Ed Hugus, who is no longer with us.

I was reminded recently by one of our TNF members that any claim must have at least a second verification before it can be taken seriously. As much as I would like to see this story as true, I am not aware of any second verification of Hugus's claim whatsoever. As such, I reluctantly conclude that I cannot believe it happened until some credible witness comes forward to verify the claim of Ed Hugus. Unfortunately, until then, this will remain in the realm of a fish story, at least to me.

It certainly is plausible; the circumstances do make sense. But where is somebody, anybody, who can say it happened? Where is the proof?


Tom, that is not always possible... as you well know...

So where do we in fact stand? We have one person who knew Ed and says he was not a man to make false claims, so anyone who leaps on the 'I don't believe this rubbish' bandwagon is effectively saying that's not true. And they are calling Ed a liar.

Does Ed's record warrant that? Do the circumstances suggest that it might be the case? You've already agreed that the circumstances provide that it could well have happened.

We recently had a huge loss to this forum because of the kind of thinking above. No second verification? Call the man a liar! No credible witness? Call the man a liar!

No... if there's no credible witness, we have to say 'Yet!' and keep looking for one.

#45 RA Historian

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 21:10

Maybe somebody could ask Nino Vaccarella if he remembers Hugus driving the NART 250LM in 1965?

I trust that has been done long ago.
Tom

#46 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 23:05

Originally posted by RA Historian
I trust that has been done long ago.


Probably not... and it's an excellent idea...

#47 fbarrett

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 01:55

Friends:

Ed's son called me a few years ago on another matter, but I can't find his name or contact information. The Pittsburgh phone book would be a good place to start, and I wonder if the Chinetti family has any old race documentation. Surely if Hugus got into the car, the team would have recorded it.

Frank

#48 AMICALEMANS

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 22:28

No... if there's no credible witness, we have to say 'Yet!' and keep looking for one.

We are waiting for it...

But i remind you, that in this case....in 1965, that mean that the Ferrari would be DQ..... Maybe some old fellows of ACO know about it, but they shut their mouths....

In any case, 3 drivers in 1965 mean that it is a trick....


Edited by AMICALEMANS, 01 November 2009 - 22:30.


#49 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 23:14

That's exactly why this thread exists, is it not?

Anyone who knew would have done just that... shut their mouths... and so it passes into a questionable nether area, nobody knowing for sure whether or not it happened.

But there was another NART-Le Mans experience ten years later that points to the probability of it being able to happen. Sam Posey drove into the pits in the dead of night and found nobody there! Like Masten in '65, it wasn't at a time when a pit stop was due and many were sleeping, others simply not minding their posts closely enough.

Sam did what was needed and drove away again, nobody ever recording that he'd stopped.

#50 scheivlak

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 23:43

No... if there's no credible witness, we have to say 'Yet!' and keep looking for one.

We are waiting for it...

But i remind you, that in this case....in 1965, that mean that the Ferrari would be DQ..... Maybe some old fellows of ACO know about it, but they shut their mouths....

In any case, 3 drivers in 1965 mean that it is a trick....


And -to put it bluntly- two Belgian privateer drivers were robbed of a historic win......