40 replies to this topic

[island]

Just read a newspaper story about this subject.
Where and when ?
Any idea ?

[jarama]

I think it was the Avus.

The first meeting was the Avusrennen, held on 24 and 25 September 1921. The race track was 19.57 km -12.16 miles- long and 8m -26 ft- wide.

[TonyKaye]

My guess would be the Opelbahn at Russelsheim, unless you count the Berlin Stadion, which was really a cycle track.

[Boniver]

24 april 1921 Avus
was the first (internationale race)on a permanent racetrack
in Germany
1. Fritz Von Opel - Opel
2. ????
3. ????

there was also a race in 1922 on Avus
1.?????
2. ????
3. ????

But in 29 juli 1900 there was the
Internationale Baanrennen of Frankfurt

it was also a semi permanent Circuit
1. R Benz - Benz

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by TonyKaye
... unless you count the Berlin Stadion, which was really a cycle track.

Tony, can you confirm that it was used for racing?

The Berlin Stadium was finished 13.7.1913 for the 1916 Olympics. It had a 666.66 m bicycle track around the normal 400m running track.

[island]

Tony, you hit the jackpot !
The Opel-Rennbahn near Rüsselsheim opened on October 24,
1920. It was a 1.5 kilometer (concrete surface) oval track with two banked(32 degrees) turns. Quite a few races took
place at the Rennbahn in the 1920s. Drivers like Rudolf
Caracciola appeared.
On March 12, 1928 Opel brought the world`s first rocket
car to the Rennbahn.
In 1949 the track was brought down. According to the
newspaper story, you can still find traces of the track
in a forest near Schönau.

[Boniver]

The Automobil Verkehrs und Ubungs-Strasse was conceived in 1907 as a test track for the motor industry as well as for motorsport. It was the ideas of the Automobilklub von Deutschland but there was little money for the project and it was six years before work began. The track took the form of a section of dual carriageway on the south-west outskirts of Berlin from Charlottenburg to Nikolassee, with banked loops at each end. By 1913 the enormous undertaking had run out of money, and with the war work stopped. Later Russian prisonoers were employed to continue construction, although the track was still only half built when the 1918 armistice came.

info Falcadore

[mhferrari]

I believe it was Avus, the only F1 track where 2 heats were raced. It would be nice if Formula One still raced on it, but there are many tracks like that and so little weeks in a year.

[TonyKaye]

Leif,
I know of only one race meeting at the Berlin stadium, but there could easily have been more. It took place on 28/29 April 1923. Among the winners was Rudolf Caracciola with his little Ego. Most modern drivers have big ones.

[Hans Etzrodt]

That was a nice joke, Tony.

[Leif Snellman]

Thanks, Tony.

Ok. It's mentioned in Caracciola's "Meine Welt", Chapter 3. I have never noticed what track it was before!
And I agree with Hans. Nice joke!

[fines]

Apr 28/29, 1923: I ADAC Stadion-Rennen, Berlin Stadionbahn (0.666 km) (a devilish track ;))

Three races for Motorcycles and two for small cars (4 bhp and 5 bhp, respectively)

Heat 1 (4 bhp)
1. Koch (Koco), 30 laps in 16'53.0" (71.076 kph)
2. Hausherr (Omicron), 27 laps in 16'59.2" (time calculated)
3. Pulkowski (Hagea-Moto), 27 laps in 16'59.6" (time calculated)

Heat 2 (4 bhp)
1. Hüttner (Omicron), 30 laps in 15'23.8" (77.938 kph)
2. Hoffmann (Koco), 30 laps in 16'45.4"
3. van Horn (Nug), 17 laps (engine lost oil)

Heat 3 (4 bhp)
1. Caracciola (Ego), 30 laps in 15'39.2" (76.660 kph)
2. Niedlich (Grade), 30 laps in 15'52.8"
3. Seeger (Bob), 30 laps in 17'26.2"
4. Pingel (Omicron), 30 laps in 17'39.6"

Final (4 bhp), Sunday
1. Caracciola (Ego), 40 laps in 20'29.6" (78.074 kph)
2. Niedlich (Grade), 40 laps in 20'45.0"
3. Hoffmann (Koco), 38 laps in 20'46.6" (time calculated)
4. Hüttner (Omicron), 34 laps in 20'51.6" (time calculated)

Heat 1 (5 bhp)
1. Fettkenheuer (Bob), 20 laps in 10'18.0" (77.669 kph)
2. Koch (Koco), 19 laps in 10'24.6" (time calculated)
3. Sörensen (Club), 18 lpas in 10'21.4" (time calculated)
4. Hausherr (Omicron), 17 laps in 10'52.0" (time calculated)

Heat 2 (5 bhp)
1. Pingel (Omicron), 20 laps in 10'09.2" (78.791 kph)
2. Wetzel (Peter Moritz), 18 laps in 10'33.8" (time calculated)
3. Pulkowski (Hagea-Moto), 16 laps in 10'14.0" (time calculated)
4. Wachsmann (Club), 5 laps (disqualified because engine lost oil)

Final (5 bhp), Sunday
1. Fettkenheuer (Bob), 40 laps in 21'00.2" (76.178 kph)
2. Koch (Koco), 37 laps in 21'09.4" (time calculated)
3. Wetzel (Peter Moritz), 36 laps in 21'26.2" (time calculated)
4. Pingel (Omicron), 33 laps (delayed by puncture)

Fastest time over 15 laps (10 km): Fettkenheuer (Bob) in 7'41.2" (78.057 kph)

Note was made of Caracciola's driving after he was baulked quite badly in the heat and then overtook two other cars at one fell swoop. The meeting was deemed a success but apparently not repeated.

(from "Der Motorwagen", issue 14, 1923)[p][Edited by fines on 11-05-2000]

[Hans Etzrodt]

Michael,
Do you know which library has the original Der Motorwagen" magazines?

I am looking for the early races after WW I at the Opelbahn and Kirchberg's book has only a preview of the 1922 race on page 137.

[fines]

I'm sorry Hans, but I only have the Kirchberg books. There's mention of the "Verlag der ATZ (Automobiltechnische Zeitschrift) in Stuttgart", so maybe that's a starting point.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Michael,
what are the temperatures in Germany now? I guess my blood must by now be very thick, the price for living in the tropics. Do you think I have to bring my earmuffs when I come over end of the month?

[Ray Bell]

I think it would be appropriate for you to post a photo of this phase in your life, Hans.

[david_martin]

Hans, I would not have thought so for Germany in December - even my large, Australian born ears can survive low lying continental Europe at Christmas time. Pity us Northerners (60 degrees North to be exact) - last week it got down to -8 degrees celcius for a spell and when it warmed up a bit we got 20 cm of snow in 12 hours. Now that is winter...

[Hans Etzrodt]

Ray,
I first need to have access to a website for posting pictures. At this time, I have no interest in setting up my own site, where I would have to compete with DD, Leif, Darren and others. I think the ground is very well covered right now.

Don spoke about some upcoming changes at year's end, which might make it easier to post pictures or I probably wait till end of next year when I might reach my 1000th post here at TNF.

[Ray Bell]

A website doesn't have to be like that, Hans. I have a Geocities one which just has a bunch of photos piled on it for this purpose. I don't think anyone can even access it.
But a simpler method is desirable, and a system whereby photos you want posted could be emailed to a central address for posting by Atlas would be good in the interim.

[TonyKaye]

Fines,
Thanks for the detailed results of the Berlin Stadion races. Just one tiny point, I think those figures should be 'hp', not 'bhp'. In those years just after WW1, Germany used a horse power classification for its races, which had only a passing resemblance to the internationally accepted cubic centimeters classes. Usually cars would race in the 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 or 12 hp classes depending on the track. The Berlin Stadion, for instance, was not suitable for larger cars. These classes were very evident in the early 20's German hill climbs.
By 1926 when the International GP was held at the Avus these classes had given way to the normal 1100 cc, 1500 cc etc. The horse power classes were never used at the Nurburgring.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by david_martin
Hans, I would not have thought so for Germany in December - even my large, Australian born ears can survive low lying continental Europe at Christmas time. Pity us Northerners (60 degrees North to be exact) - last week it got down to -8 degrees celcius for a spell and when it warmed up a bit we got 20 cm of snow in 12 hours. Now that is winter...

David,
60° North? Do you live in Alaska, Stockholm or Helsinki? I shiver by the thought of it, -8°? Do I need long'johns?

Just picked up wife and grandson from the beach where it was 31° in the shade and the water of the Pacific here is always comfortably warm.

[Ray Bell]

That's all right, Hans, we recognise your suffering... our noses bleed for you.

[david_martin]

Hans, I live in Finland about 600km north of Helsinki in a place called Oulu, on the shores of the Gulf of Bothnia.

Actually, -8 degrees is very mild, two years ago it got down to -36 degrees in mid January, although the coldest I have experienced was -40.5 at Luleå in Sweden (which is also 60 degrees north, but on the opposite side of the Bothnian Arch, also in January of the same year.

Right now it is actually rather warm, about +8 and raining - has been for about three or four days, which is a bit unseasonal for this time of year. All the snow has melted and we are now living in fear that a cold snap will hit and all of this water on the ground will freeze and turn the place into an ice skating rink.

As for long johns, I would have thought that if you have a good coat and are not planning to spend hours at a time outside you probably won't need them. I have not yet resorted to mine this winter. Perhaps it would be prudent to pack one pair just in case there is a really cold snap, but then again if it does get really cold, either stay inside or go and buy some.

Of course, veering back on topic for a minute, I recall reading somewhere that the Avus circuit was "disabled" during the partitioning of Berlin as it lay across the frontier between the free city and the East - the old Nordcurve was on the wrong side of the wall. Can someone enlighten me?

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by david_martin
Of course, veering back on topic for a minute, I recall reading somewhere that the Avus circuit was "disabled" during the partitioning of Berlin as it lay across the frontier between the free city and the East - the old Nordcurve was on the wrong side of the wall. Can someone enlighten me?

Funny, Hans and I have discussed that matter last week.
Both he and I are 99% sure that NO part of the track
was ever in the Sovjet zone.

- The old South curve had already been dismantled in 1939 as the track was connected to the Reichs-Autobahn.
- The track was probably shortened after the war to cut the high repair costs.
- The north curve was dismantled in 1968.

Yesterday I uploaded the Avus & Nürburgring texts at:
http://www.kolumbus....snellman/t2.htm

P.S. I cannot remember experencing anything lover that -35 degrees myself but the cold is not a real problem as long as the wind isn't blowing. It's + 8 here also and the rain has stopped.

[david_martin]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
P.S. I cannot remember experiencing anything lower that -35 degrees myself but the cold is not a real problem as long as the wind isn't blowing. It's + 8 here also and the rain has stopped. [/B]

Leif, thankyou for the Avus information - very enlightening.
On the subject of weather all I can add is

Weak Southerners.....

[Ray Bell]

I'm not afraid of putting thermal underwear on in this climate in winter... gets down to -7 at times, but worst I had this year was about -2.

[david_martin]

Ray, -7 degrees in Australia - that is a new one even for me. Except on skiing holidays I don't ever recall sub-zero daytime temperatures. Do you live on top of Mount Kosiosko or Macquarie Island perchance ?

[Darren Galpin]

At least you don't need to walk around with a snorkel, unlike us in England at the moment,

[Ray Bell]

Canberra gets down to -4 virtually every day in August... that's Celcius or Centigrade, not Fahrenheit... or are we off on a tangent here?
I'm about 110km inland from Canberra.
Large areas see sub-zero temps... In Queensland around Stanthorpe and Toowoomba, all down the New England plateau into NSW, occasionally the Blue Mountains. Big slices of mountain areas and inland western district Victoria too, and of course Tasmania does as well.
I don't know how cold the centre gets on frosty August nights, but I think I'd take the thermals there, too. Big range of temps in those parts.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Boniver,
Your description of the borderlines might be correct, because I have no old maps showing the different sectors of Berlin during occupation.

The true reason why the Avus received a new south curve after the war was as Leif already stated.
"The old South curve had already been dismantled in 1939 as the track was connected to the Reichs-Autobahn."

After the 1937 Avusrennen, discussion was going on in Germany at that time. Here is an extract from my own story about the 1937 event:
"This 1937 race was the first and only event to take place on this 11.984 mile long track, which included the new steeply banked North Turn and the old South loop. The German promoter O.N.S. (Oberste Nationale Sportbehörde), did not want to take the responsibility of holding future events here with speeds having risen to what they were now. It had become too great a risk. For the spectators the races had become boring. The track was too long, and the cars did not drive past the grand stand often enough.

"The Avus was just too narrow for speeds of 240 mph on the straight. Overtaking was now a delicate matter if not almost impossible. The two corners were the only places of interest and the track had the reputation to be boring for spectators as well as drivers. It was however odd, that the track that had just been altered with considerable expense to achieve higher speeds, had indeed become too fast and too dangerous."

[Boniver]

Hans, Leif,

If the new south curve was change in 1939 then was the raeson not the Sovjet zone,
The Sovjet zone was start after 1950

And is Leif correct, the old south curve was after the war in Sovjet zone, but it was not the raeson for making a sort circuit,……….

Boniver/Rudiger

[Leif Snellman]

Boniver,

That's hard for me to believe, especially as the
Grenzkontrollstelle (checkpoint) Dreilinden was south of Nikolaisee road crossing, 7.5 km southwest of the line you mention! If you saw a bunkerline at Hüttenweg, near the Schloss, are you sure it wasn't they did not belong to the British-American sector border?
I was there myelf in 1991 but never south of the Avus North schleife.

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Ray,
At this time, I have no interest in setting up my own site, where I would have to compete with DD, Leif, Darren and others. I think the ground is very well covered right now.

Except for the 1920s, Hans!

[p][Edited by Leif Snellman on 11-07-2000]

[Don Capps]

The "zones" were in place well before 1950. While not quite the same as that which came in the Summer of 1961, there were controlled access points between the Western & Eastern Zones.

When I did my RVM on 1959 and did my research, I found out that after I submitted my article that I had goofed:

The AVUSrennen was revived in 1951 through 1953 for Formula Two cars. The last major race at the AVUS was the Berlin Grand Prix in 1954, which was a Mercedes demo run won by Kael Kling. The track was shortened to 8.299 km due to alterations dictated by the southern portion of the circuit now being in East Berlin. The Nordkurve remained, however, and the Sudkurve was back to being a hairpin as in the original, only much closer the Nordkurve.

Yes, some the southern part of the old course was in the Eastern Zone, but the Sudkurve itself had already been dismantled so as to make the link into the Autobahn. Even had racing returned to the AVUS, this would have required a change in the circuit. I did look at maps of the zones and the bit in the Soviet Zone is essentially the old South Curve and some of the road leading into and out of the curve. They backed up the "new" southern curve so as not to get too close to the sector boundries and also to simply shorten the rather lengthy circuit.

I didn't realize all this despite it being right under my eyes until I found another file with all this laid out in it. Doh!!! Sometimes you have the information but still drop the ball simply because you didn't look just that teeny bit closer....

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by Don Capps
While not quite the same as that which came in the Summer of 1961...

That's were I got it wrong as I assumed the zone borders were unchanged between 1945 and 1989.
Sorry for that Rudiger!

[Boniver]

Leif,

What is important, that we after 40 years again know that the Avus circuit not is change for the Sovjet zones, but for safety.

Autoracing was so match the « player’s ball » of economic and political problems
(and mony) but not here……………

not but :yawn: autoracing is only a sport ;)

Rudiger

[Yves]

I always believe that the Avus track was using a regular Autobahn portion, so not being a "permanent circuit" ?
Was it the opposite and it has been converted to highway after being used as permanent race place ?

http://www.kolumbus....snellman/t2.htm

This place has always been a "bad" place for the very young french fan I was : it's the place of Jean Behra's death

Y.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Hello Yves,
A great welcome to you. It is very nice to have someone from France here at TNF. I had been in Rouen and Paris this year during April and had a great time. Where in France do you live, if I may ask?

To answer your question, the easiest is to look here at http://www.kolumbus....snellman/t2.htm.
The Avus was a track like an Autobahn with two loops at each end built in 1921. In 1939, the Avus was connected to the other Autobahn leading to Frankfurt.

[Yves]

Thank you for your welcome, Hans.

I'm living west-south-west from Paris (50 kms from Monthléry, 1 hour by Highway from LeMans and 8 kms from the place were Jenazy beat the World record of absolute speed on the "Jamais Contente" ) but work in Paris suburban (Suresnes).
Thanks for the link that I already checked after I read this topic.

Y.

[fines]

Aaah, Suresnes! Home of Darracq and Lago-Talbot...

[Boniver]

Leif,
You have right

In 1938 the track was reduced to 8.3 km in length. Only a sportscar race was held that year. The Nurburgring was by this time favoured for the Grand Prix.

In 1940 the Avus was connected to the Autobahn system of the city, it had been altered from toll to public road in the late 30's The circuit had been damaged in the war and needed extensive work to restore it to usable condition. In 1951 after much campaigning by a group of enthusiasts headed by Dr Lindner who had led a deputation to the authorities in the city, work began on the circuit to re-open. The circuit at this time crossed between the British and American sectors of the city


http://www.cybersnippets.com/

"links - Berlin A Motor Racing History"

[mrBosch]

I read Caracciola's autobiograpy (Mercedes Benz Grand Prix Ace). He wrote: "... Niedlich drew the first heat and I was glad that this dangerous competitor was not in my group..." "... Niedlich won the first race..." (Page 27)

 

Perhaps He remembered poorly?