169 replies to this topic

[Dunc]

I can't quite make up my mind.

part of me believes all the journalistic hyperbole about him but... Four DNFs in one season, is that really the making of a champion?

[OO7]

I think he's brilliant. Super fast in both qualification and the race, maybe the fastest guy on the grid.

[MegaManson]

The kid is 22 only just turned, Schumacher had a lot of crashes in his first couple of seasons and Vettel has half a finger missng which wouldnt help too

He is brilliant

[dank]

Until he shows me that he can hustle and overtake for position, I remain unconvinced.

[RodrigoL]

4 DNFs huh? Shuey had SEVEN in his third F1 season.

He also had 3 less victories..

[potmotr]

Vettel has certainly changed over the course of this season.

I've detected a bit of arrogance creeping in, which is no bad thing, and certainly required to be one of the top men.

I think in the years ahead we'll see him become a very tough competitor, both in and out of the car.

[egg1980]

Anyone who can get pole position despite a mechanical problem that only allows him to do one flying lap in each phase of qualifying gets my vote!

[potmotr]

Until he shows me that he can hustle and overtake for position, I remain unconvinced.

Can you repost than piece on Vettel from the other day here Dank?

I thought it was quite an illuminating read but can't find it.

[Anomnader]

One of the fastest there is.

Made a few errors, but who didn't

Still young, so great potential.

Needs to improve on overtaking, doesn't seem aggresive enough

Bit of whiner about the Kers button, but as Massa said in his great comeback, I'll swop my Kers for your downforce.

[Ijsman]

The kid is 22 only just turned, Schumacher had a lot of crashes in his first couple of seasons and Vettel has half a finger missng which wouldnt help too

He is brilliant

Half a finger missing?

[BMW_F1]

he is top 5 driver but I think I would pick other drivers before him if I was a team boss.
lewis/alonso/massa/kubica

[dank]

Can you repost than piece on Vettel from the other day here Dank?

I thought it was quite an illuminating read but can't find it.

Here you go, Darren Heath, F1-photograph-extraordinaire: http://www.darrenhea...logs.htm?big=91

The situation at Red Bull is the most intriguing. Up until early July at the Nürburgring, all seemed rosy in the sickly sweet world of energy drink-fuelled F1.

The young ‘n’ trendy Sebastian Vettel had won a race or two, ably supported by his down-to-earth Aussie mate. Mark Webber had dealt with defeat – and rumours of Red Bull's Germanic-leaning favouritism – with aplomb.

After Mark’s maiden win things appear to have changed.

Vettel seemed less than happy to play the runner-up role in Germany, and after Hungary I bet he’s far from chipper at trailing Mark in the championship. Less than flattering mutterings about Sebastian’s attitude to doing anything other than driving are blotting the copybook of this previously very likeable lad.

Word around the camp fire is that the big boss back in Austria has told Vettel that he need not do anything he doesn’t want to. So, journalist with a story, photographer with a brief – don’t even ask. Sebastian is big time now and the bonhomie of recent times is long gone.

Giving rich young men with egos the size of F1 motorhomes the right to refuse all that their employers, press and the like ask of them is more than a little irresponsible. It hardly makes for a level-headed guy who’ll be popular with opinion-formers worldwide.

Webber, of course, is a wily old fox, and from what I hear has noticed plenty in his team-mate’s current demeanour to more than chip away at his young, inexperienced and possibly fragile character.

We’ll see – but with a new contract in his pocket, his team-mate throwing rusks out of his pram and the Brawns on the run, Mark knows his big chance is begging.

[Fallout]

Until he shows me that he can hustle and overtake for position, I remain unconvinced.

This. He's certainly fast, and I love his attitude, as well as his fight with Hamilton last year, but that's about it. Too early to say, but he could become a favourite of mine.

[potmotr]

Thanks Dank.

I reckon it is a good read.

I certainly noticed a change in the relationship with Webber.

[MegaManson]

Half a finger missing?

Yeah he had a crash at Spa pre F1 and lost half of his finger of my memory serves me correctly

[RodrigoL]

We’ll see – but with a new contract in his pocket, his team-mate throwing rusks out of his pram and the Brawns on the run, Mark knows his big chance is begging.

Oh the irony...

[Muppetmad]

I think people use Vettel's age as an excuse to cover up his mistakes. At Vettel's age, Hamilton was thrown into the sport finished just 1 point off the championship. Nobody used the age excuse for Hamilton then, and they don't now. Vettel has 2 and a half seasons worth of experience now.

[Oblivion]

Vettel has a great potential. But now he's not as good as Lewis, Kimi or even Massa. The first worrying thing are his starts. Other one - I think he cannot handle the pressure. Unfortunately he wasn't able to win in F3 and F-Renault because of his early trip to F1 and he just doesn't know how to win. I think he's a future champion but only when he grows older...

[GIBF1]

Seems like a nice guy but i'm still not convinced. I like exciting drivers and although he's fast he struggles to overtake people.

He's still young though so will mature and i want to see young drivers do well so i hope he has a good career

[kliene]

The kid is 22 only just turned, Schumacher had a lot of crashes in his first couple of seasons and Vettel has half a finger missng which wouldnt help too

He is brilliant

off course he brillant so long as he is not hamilton..

[potmotr]

I'd quite like to see Vettel ditch the cheeky chappy routine.

I find all his gags about sex, "Kate's Dirty Sister" etc etc tedious in the extreme.

[MegaManson]

I think people use Vettel's age as an excuse to cover up his mistakes. At Vettel's age, Hamilton was thrown into the sport finished just 1 point off the championship. Nobody used the age excuse for Hamilton then, and they don't now. Vettel has 2 and a half seasons worth of experience now.

Look up Schumi's stats for 91-93

Look at Hakkinen's early career where he was nicknamed Mika Crashinen

They hardly turned out too bad with 9 titles between them about about 115 wins

[BullHead]

I think people use Vettel's age as an excuse to cover up his mistakes. At Vettel's age, Hamilton was thrown into the sport finished just 1 point off the championship. Nobody used the age excuse for Hamilton then, and they don't now. Vettel has 2 and a half seasons worth of experience now.

One season in a top car. TR 08 was dragged to it's best by Vettel. Hammy had it easy going into a front running McLaren from day one.

[BMW_F1]

good point.
kubica in 2008 was in his 2nd full season and was mighty consistent. Vettel was in his 2nd full season this year.

[maverick69]

Probably better at timetrials than he is at racing.

[Szoelloe]

definitely the biggest promise on the grid at the moment, by far

[dank]

Yeah he had a crash at Spa pre F1 and lost half of his finger of my memory serves me correctly

He severed his finger, but was stitched back on.

[MegaManson]

He severed his finger, but was stitched back on.

Aah thanks for correcting me

[BullHead]

Will be a multiple champion I think. Future years see Vettel / Hammy / Massa / Alonso sharing the crown around. (sorry Jenson, I think you had your year)

[potmotr]

He severed his finger, but was stitched back on.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Was that an F3 Euroseries race?

[velgajski1]

I think Vettel showed this season just how good Hamilton actually is.

Vettel had a championship capable car this season - there's no doubt about it, but he failed to deliver. Not in terms of pace (he showed he's capable of that), but he lost some duels and cracked few times under pressure. It comes down to his age/experience, he will learn and I think we can expect him much stronger in the future - perhaps as soon as next season. Looking forward to it

[GIBF1]

On his relationship with Webber, you could tell after Turkey everything wasn't rosy when he wasn't allowed to challenge Mark in the last laps in Istanbul.

His face looked like a smacked arse on the podium

[MegaManson]

I think Vettel showed this season just how good Hamilton actually is.

Vettel had a championship capable car this season - there's no doubt about it, but he failed to deliver. Not in terms of pace (he showed he's capable of that), but he lost some duels and cracked few times under pressure. It comes down to his age/experience, he will learn and I think we can expect him much stronger in the future - perhaps as soon as next season. Looking forward to it

No one was going to seriously catch Button after he won what was it ? first 5 or 6 races ? Red Bull was only championship capable car after about 6 races rest of the time everyone had to play catch up to Jenson

[Muppetmad]

Look up Schumi's stats for 91-93

Look at Hakkinen's early career where he was nicknamed Mika Crashinen

They hardly turned out too bad with 9 titles between them about about 115 wins ;)

Different era - can't be compared. Back then, teams could afford to give drivers time to settle in and learn. Nowadays we have incredibly young athletes who are expected to get up to speed quickly and then perform. Look at Grosjean this year - he hasn't set the world on fire, and now looks like he's going to go - even though he hasn't driven a full season in F1. Expectations are much higher of rookies today than they used to be - and that's why it can't be compared.

[Cenotaph]

In my opinion, Vettel is quickly becoming the fastest driver in F1. Sure, he does some mistakes, but so does Hamilton and he is already a champion. If Vettel was driving for Brawn this year instead of Rubens, Im not sure Button would have made it.

[BlackCat]

best of the germans active in F1. not sure about bigger picture.

[BullHead]

If Vettel was driving for Brawn this year instead of Rubens, Im not sure Button would have made it.

My thoughts exactly

[velgajski1]

No one was going to seriously catch Button after he won what was it ? first 5 or 6 races ? Red Bull was only championship capable car after about 6 races rest of the time everyone had to play catch up to Jenson

This is not true. Many people forget that many of those races that Button won weren't just due to superior car, in fact its not like he always started from pole position. Just as Red Bull was relatively weak in first part of season - Brawn Gp was in second part.

As I've said, its hard to accept to some Vettel fans that he, not Red Bull lost his championship. But I'm not saying he's a bad driver, he has great potential - he's just not there yet.

Another thing I'd like to add is that he has #1 trait of successful driver - he is getting bigger and bigger support of his team (I'm looking at Red Bull in general) from season to season.

[Clatter]

No one was going to seriously catch Button after he won what was it ? first 5 or 6 races ? Red Bull was only championship capable car after about 6 races rest of the time everyone had to play catch up to Jenson

You should look back at the points Vettel dropped due to his own mistakes in the first half of the season. That's the reason he finished 2nd, not just because JB won the early races.

[Group B]

One season in a top car. TR 08 was dragged to it's best by Vettel. Hammy had it easy going into a front running McLaren from day one.

Lewis this, Lewis that, Lewis can balance a hatstand on his todger while breaking the 100m world record and dictating poetry to make Keats look like a tree stump. Yawn.

For the record I suspect LH is probably the most gifted driver on the grid, but I'm also aware of his extremely pampered, favourable, fortunate career and tire of his planet sized ego. He is not the be-all and end-all of F1. Vettel still has to prove a few things, but any impartial fan of F1 will have a pretty hard time not seeing that he's an extremely gifted guy who more likely than not will be challenging for several WDCs over the next decade.

[apoka]

I think Vettel showed this season just how good Hamilton actually is.

Vettel had a championship capable car this season - there's no doubt about it, but he failed to deliver.

I find it quite hard to compare drivers based on assumptions of how good their car actually is. Maybe, Hamilton had the slightly better car and less competition than Vettel in his WDC season. Surely, Hamilton should be rated highly for what he has achieved since he entered F1, but we may have to wait for another couple of years until we can compare Vettel with him.

[velgajski1]

What I was hinting at was Hamilton on 2007. He made stronger championship bid with less F1 experience and with much stronger teammate. He also made less mistakes and handled the pressure better.

In my view, both are around same level of talent, but Hamilton is a bit more mature driver at the moment.

[Murdoch]

Until he shows me that he can hustle and overtake for position, I remain unconvinced.

I agree.

Apart from overtaking RB in Brazil (when RB was fueled right up and was on cold tyres), I can't actually recall a successful overtaking manoeuvre. Not saying there wasn't, just that i can't remember any. Was there?

p.s I said 'successful' as he did try to overtake Kubica in Aus....

[Cenotaph]

Sure, in hindsight he only finished 12 points away from the title, so its valid to think he could have done better. But in my perspective that small points gap works more for him than against him. To be honest he didnt even threw away a huge amount of points, also if he had put more pressure on Button, Button would probably do more points instead of playing safe so many times, so its not that simple.

He is still a bit inconsistent in terms of results, but at the same time pretty consistent in terms of speed, probably the very best in 2009 when it comes to that alone

[Group B]

What I was hinting at was Hamilton on 2007. He made stronger championship bid with less F1 experience and with much stronger teammate. He also made less mistakes and handled the pressure better.

In my view, both are around same level of talent, but Hamilton is a bit more mature driver at the moment.

I think we need to remember here that LH is far from immune where mistakes, including those under pressure, are concerned. He's a fantastic driver; fast, exciting, etc, but he was aided by arriving in F1 on a shag file red carpet, and in between some wonderful driving that followed has made his own share of errors, albeit some more costly than others.

[Magnus]

I can't quite make up my mind.

part of me believes all the journalistic hyperbole about him but... Four DNFs in one season, is that really the making of a champion?

Ive been taking my time in evaluating him as I also dont care for journalistic hyperbole which too quickly jumps on a drivers bandwagon. I used to think he was overrated and I like bashing his 2009 season because It was very scrappy but its clear he has massive potential and is the only driver on the grid who could possibly be on the level of Alonso and Hamilton. Its still too early but if i had to make a bet id probably say he was. He seems to have that extra bit of speed and ability that seperates the special drivers from the rest. He seems to always be fast, and able to put down a lap when it matters. I did and still do have a question mark about his race pace and racing ability but the speed he showed in the last race went a way to convincing me and his racing ability will probably improve with experience. The key to everything is does he have exceptional speed, and it looks like he does.

[velgajski1]

Sure, in hindsight he only finished 12 points away from the title, so its valid to think he could have done better. But in my perspective that small points gap works more for him than against him. To be honest he didnt even threw away a huge amount of points, also if he had put more pressure on Button, Button would probably do more points instead of playing safe so many times, so its not that simple.

He is still a bit inconsistent in terms of results, but at the same time pretty consistent in terms of speed, probably the very best in 2009 when it comes to that alone

He did threw more than 12 points. As far as I counted he screwed up 6 races this year - if that number was 2-3 he'd be the champion.

[velgajski1]

I think we need to remember here that LH is far from immune where mistakes, including those under pressure, are concerned. He's a fantastic driver; fast, exciting, etc, but he was aided by arriving in F1 on a shag file red carpet, and in between some wonderful driving that followed has made his own share of errors, albeit some more costly than others.

This is true, comparing Hamilton to Alonso for example may prove that he still has room for improvement in that section, but Vettel makes even more errors than Hamilton. But, in few seasons I think they'll both be pretty consistent and hopefully have great cars

[mkay]

Hamilton nearly won against Raikkonen and beat 2x WDC Alonso for most of the season.

Vettel did not win against Button (who did everything in order to lose his title in the 2nd half of the season, while Red Bull HAD the best car), and was battling with Barrichello for a distant 2nd place in the standings and barely beat Webber (who at times has looked dominant compared to him).

Vettel is quite good, but the age thing is overblown. Vettel has competed in over 40GPs, which is about 10 less than Hamilton. The experience thing just does not matter. Furthermore, Vettel has been testing F1 cars at the same time as Hamilton (2006). So he's been in the business for about the same time as Hamilton.

Whilst Hamilton has been able to have a string of 9 consecutive podiums against established stars like Raikkonen and Alonso, Vettel did not have it easy against Webber, RB and Button (at the same "age", and Vettel had the advantage of having 30 GPs under his belt).

Edited by mkay, 03 November 2009 - 19:37.

[Magnus]

No one was going to seriously catch Button after he won what was it ? first 5 or 6 races ? Red Bull was only championship capable car after about 6 races rest of the time everyone had to play catch up to Jenson

If vettel had driven better in the first half of the season there would have been a lot less catching up to do. vettel only finished 15 points ahead of his team mate, so he hardly performed miracles. He wasted his clear speed advantage over webber.