169 replies to this topic

[mkay]

Gotta defend Vettel on that one. If it was anybody's fault - it was teams fault. Mclaren did similar mistake, otherwise Lewis would at least pass into Q2, and most likely to Q3.

How is it the team's fault? Have I missed something?

From the look on Vettel's face after Q1, I tend to think it's his, but if I missed something, please tell me.

[Cenotaph]

20 points at least as stated in my previous post. Button did a better on-track job this season, never been his fan, but its true.

Well, as i said i dont agree with your count because to me one thing is screwing up a race for some stupid or very poor move (like the very ambitious stuff at australia, spinning out or sticking the car in the wall), another thing is not being able to maximize the potential of the car in a given race. It happened to every single guy this season many times, it happened many times to Button also.

But i do agree with your last sentence, infact to me button was the best driver this season as ive said in those 2009 best drivers threads, but this one is about vettel.

in brazil he was a bit unlucky in qualifying, not just driver's fault. i've said it right here while watching q1 that he wasnt able to make the most out of the track while conditions were at their best. He actually almost got a spot in q2 near the end of q1 with worse conditions, it was a pretty decent effort. In the race, there was nothing wrong with his performance.

Edited by Cenotaph, 03 November 2009 - 22:38.

[P123]

You honestly believe the TR was the absolute best car in 2008? Dream on sunshine.

As we have seen with the Red Bull cars (and Newey cars in general) they tend to be very good in the wet- they occupied pole and the second row of the grid at Monza that year. Vettel most definitley showed up the big sister team that day and displayed maturity beyond his years, but it's worth noting that Bourdais laptimes were comparable with his teammate during that race. A possible one-two lost due to a technical glitch on the grid.

[velgajski1]

Well, as i said i dont agree with your count because to me one thing is screwing up a race for some stupid or very poor move (like the very ambitious stuff at australia, spinning out or sticking the car in the wall), another thing is not being able to maximize the potential of the car in a given race. It happened to every single guy this season many times, it happened many times to Button also.

But i do agree with your last sentence, infact to me button was the best driver this season as ive said in those 2009 best drivers threads, but this one is about vettel.

in brazil he was a bit unlucky in qualifying, not just driver's fault. i've said it right here while watching q1 that he wasnt able to take the most out of the track while conditions were at their best. He actually almost got a spot in q2 near the end of q1 with worst conditions, it was a pretty decent effort. In the race, there was nothing wrong with his performance.

I said it wasn't his fault in Brazil and didn't count that one, and I'm not speaking about maximizing car potential. If you spin-off and lose a place cause of that - its error under pressure. If you start bad and get overtaken by two cars in first corner - its also an error. Those things I counted. Yes, those mistakes didn't cost him alot looking them as single mistakes, but they cost him points in 7 races. Thats 20 points even when I counted that he wouldn't finish much higher otherwise.

[GIBF1]

Got to agree about the Red Bulls pace in the wet, Webbers pace in Sepang was amazing and ominous at the same time, which then proved itself in China the next race with a 1-2 (which Vettel was fantastic in btw)

[Cenotaph]

i was kinda responding to mkay about brazil.

The rest: fair enough, but I still stand by what i said. Different view of what a screw up is, i guess.

Edited by Cenotaph, 03 November 2009 - 22:45.

[raiseyourfistfor]

I'd quite like to see Vettel ditch the cheeky chappy routine.

I find all his gags about sex, "Kate's Dirty Sister" etc etc tedious in the extreme.

Yeah, HES SOOO corny, it just makes you shake your head when he does it

Very talented driver though.

Edited by raiseyourfistfor, 03 November 2009 - 22:46.

[velgajski1]

How is it the team's fault? Have I missed something?

From the look on Vettel's face after Q1, I tend to think it's his, but if I missed something, please tell me.

Hmm, I forgot exactly what happened, but IIRC it wasn't his fault. Something with qualy strategy and changing conditions on track, but he was just unlucky on that one.

[Cenotaph]

In those 2minutes or so where the track was at its best, he had heavy traffic, which is particularly bad in the rain because of the spray, also had to deal with yellow flags because of that, that's what happened.

Edited by Cenotaph, 03 November 2009 - 22:50.

[velgajski1]

i was kinda responding to mkay about brazil.

The rest: fair enough, but I still stand by what i said. Different view of what a screw up is, i guess.

To be quite honest - its not that much anyway. Looking at latest champions, they usually do lose at least >10 points per season due to their own mistakes, but Button was superb this season. Even when he couldn't get his tyres to work well, he collected points and did best job with his current pace. Reminds me a bit of Alonso in 2006. I actually find it quite surprising that many people are saying that he's one of worst champions in decade. Most unexpected - probably, but far from worst. So, yeah, Vettel had quite strong and unforgiving opposition in his championship battle.

Being a Mclaren/Hamilton fan, I do have to admit that I think that championship battle would be closer if Lewis was driven Brawn GP instead of Button. Perhaps he would be faster and do better in second half of season, but throughout the season, he'd probably make more mistakes than Button did.

Edited by velgajski1, 03 November 2009 - 22:54.

[Schuperman]

Woah! Stop right there.

Both McLaren were out after Q1. Webber ended up 2nd on the grid. There is a major difference, right there. The MP4-24 was terrible under wet conditions while the RB5 was pretty good. Vettel should have made Q2 and Q3 with relative ease, and quite possible could have had a great chance of winning the title in Abu Dhabi.

Watching from TV camera, he was sent out at the heaviest rain in Q1 when the other top 15 had completed their best time.

Let say he had won the Brazilian GP, assuming Button finished where he was in Abu Dhabi, and one point less in Brazilian GP, Button is still a WDC, tied 94 points, but had more wins i.e. 6 - 5.

IMO The crucial points' loss was Australia. That's what I call racing accident (yup I do notice MikeTekRacing didn't agree it was). At the benefit of hindsight, of course he could be wiser by surrendering his position to RK. Monace was his mistakes too.

Other than that I can't see much how he could have made it better.

I do agree with Cenotaph, How is not doing the absolute best possible equivalent to screwing up? Because if thats the case even Button could have done better many times, not to mention Hamilton, Barrichello, Kimi and pretty much every other driver out there.

[velgajski1]

I do agree with Cenotaph, How is not doing the absolute best possible equivalent to screwing up? Because if thats the case even Button could have done better many times, not to mention Hamilton, Barrichello, Kimi and pretty much every other driver out there.

I'd like to see similar analysis done for Button this season. How many times did he spun-off, crashed by his own fault or lost several positions in first corner? And how many points did that cost him. Lets not be subjective, but analytical

[velgajski1]

Other than that I can't see much how he could have made it better.

Look at my analysis few posts up there.

Edited by velgajski1, 03 November 2009 - 23:01.

[Cenotaph]

I'd like to see similar analysis done for Button this season. How many times did he spun-off, crashed by his own fault or lost several positions in first corner? And how many points did that cost him. Lets not be subjective, but analytical

Its always subjective ;) Can you tell for sure how many points those poor qualifyings cost Button? Sure he did less mistakes but that is not the issue. The issue is could he have done better in many races? Sure he could. Cause the way I read your analysis of Vettel, to me some of those races feel more like a "he could have done better" than "he screwed his race up".

But as i said, different views of what is a driver' screw up

Edited by Cenotaph, 03 November 2009 - 23:23.

[hsvone]

Very, very good.

I still believe his debut win at Monza last year to be the best first one by a young driver in ooh let's say the last 20 years or so. Certainly better than another young German who went on to break all sorts of records.

The jury is still out though.

[Sausage]

He's a very good driver.

[beute]

Hamilton nearly won against Raikkonen and beat 2x WDC Alonso for most of the season.

Vettel did not win against Button (who did everything in order to lose his title in the 2nd half of the season, while Red Bull HAD the best car), and was battling with Barrichello for a distant 2nd place in the standings and barely beat Webber (who at times has looked dominant compared to him).

Vettel is quite good, but the age thing is overblown. Vettel has competed in over 40GPs, which is about 10 less than Hamilton. The experience thing just does not matter. Furthermore, Vettel has been testing F1 cars at the same time as Hamilton (2006). So he's been in the business for about the same time as Hamilton.

Whilst Hamilton has been able to have a string of 9 consecutive podiums against established stars like Raikkonen and Alonso, Vettel did not have it easy against Webber, RB and Button (at the same "age", and Vettel had the advantage of having 30 GPs under his belt).

well then Hamilton developes backwards.
I mean look at his perfmormance in 08, he only had ONE contender, he had a team that could focus on him without worrying about a baby in the other car, and there was one more race in 08 than there were in 07.

yet he still scored 11-12(?!) less points than in 07.

you cant compare performances between two drivers in two complety different seasons.
in 07/08 top teams hat absolutely no problem to get into q3 without even using the good tyres.
the top-cars were just that much better.

and now, make one mistake and you're out of the qualifying.

vettels perfmormance was good, atleast he destroyed Webber, the one lap wonder...

[alan]

Very, very good.

I still believe his debut win at Monza last year to be the best first one by a young driver in ooh let's say the last 20 years or so. Certainly better than another young German who went on to break all sorts of records.

The jury is still out though.

The torro roso of last year was like the red-bull of this year...a very good car in the wet. He qualified on pole and was lucky that lewis had to pit for extra tyres otherwise he would have been beaten....i don't see where this great drive hyperbole comes from when he had no spray to block his progress.

This year, he should have at least been close to Button but made too many mistakes. He has been in F1 now for 3rd year...same as hamilton...so no rookie errors here. He has never won except from the front.

He started being very humbe ...but has become very arrogant as this year has gone on. I believe he is good, but i think very overrated I believe there are other drivers who given the same machinery would have done better. I believe Lewis or Alonso would have beaten Button in that Redbull. So, i reserve my judgement until he proves himself like Lewis, Alonso or kimi

Edited by alan, 03 November 2009 - 23:29.

[hsvone]

The torro roso of last year was like the red-bull of this year...a very good car in the wet. He qualified on pole and was lucky that lewis had to pit for extra tyres otherwise he would have been beaten....i don't see where this great drive hyperbole comes from when he had no spray to block his progress.

This year, he should have at least been close to Button but made too many mistakes. He has been in F1 now for 3rd year...same as hamilton...so no rookie errors here. He has never won except from the front.

He started being very humbe ...but has become very arrogant as this year has gone on. I believe he is good, but i think very overrated I believe there are other drivers who given the same machinery would have done better. I believe Lewis or Alonso would have beaten Button in that Redbull. So, i reserve my judgement until he proves himself like Lewis, Alonso or kimi

I am rubber, you are glue.

[Mandzipop]

The difference I've noticed with Vettel is his learning curve. The early mistakes made at the beginning of the season have been cut out. He has changed a lot. At the beginning of the year he was a much weaker driver than he is now. I liked him but I thought there was something missing. That one thing was being hard and cold. It was his first deason up at the front and was probably not aware of how up the front he was. I honestly think he misjudged the competition. That is lack of experience of being up at the front. Next time he will go into points saving mode. Before it was gain as many as you can, but if you dont it doesn't matter because we weren't going to get many anyway. I still think the incident with Kubica was 50/50, but he'll not do it again.

When it came down to the most intense part of the season, he matured. He didn't "choke", he did the opposite. He upped his game even though it was too late. As I say he has grown and he has shown that nerves dont get to him. In fact the opposite.

[PassWind]

Not surprised many of the comments are negative, its mostly a reflection of the human condition to cut those tall poppies down.

Sebastian is clearly very talented and obliterated a Team Mate in QvQ who previously had the best record in Team mate to Team Mate caparison of current drivers.

His racing still shows some youth which like all of us he will lose, and as to his overtaking, he can I just don't think in the future he will need to much given the right chassis.

[Lewis]

In my opinion he is the only guy who can beat Lewis when he has a good day only I think he and Lewis will be the top drivers for the next 10 years. Currently I rate Lewis at 8,9 and Vettel at 8,2

[Anomnader]

Where is all the destroyed / oblitered Webber coming from?

He was leading Vettel and doing well until the team and FIA screwed him up several times.

There was no "destroying" that I saw, infact for all the reputed ability of Vettel, a recovering Webber could run him so close

[Bumper]

Thread edited. Some of you guys need to get some fresh air.

Don't get personal please, it's only racing.

[hsvone]

Not surprised many of the comments are negative, its mostly a reflection of the human condition to cut those tall poppies down.

Sebastian is clearly very talented and obliterated a Team Mate in QvQ who previously had the best record in Team mate to Team Mate caparison of current drivers.

His racing still shows some youth which like all of us he will lose, and as to his overtaking, he can I just don't think in the future he will need to much given the right chassis.

Yeah I agree mate. Those that criticize ie bash are the ones that would have no idea how hard it is to be a modern GP driver let alone sit in one of those infernal machines. They are only human after all. Flesh and blood like us. With emotions.

Ah why do I bother?

[Lewis]

Where is all the destroyed / oblitered Webber coming from?

He was leading Vettel and doing well until the team and FIA screwed him up several times.

There was no "destroying" that I saw, infact for all the reputed ability of Vettel, a recovering Webber could run him so close

Webber still losed Everyone knows Vettel is the overall quickest RB driver.

[mkay]

Don't get personal please, it's only racing.

Impossible...

[pgj]

As a driver he is there or thereabouts imo. He is maturing from a sulky lad into well rounded adult. His interview on the BEEB was excellent he did himself and his team proud. If he has made any mistakes with his driving he is intelligent enough to make adjustments and learn from them. He is a top-draw driver imo.

[Anomnader]

As a driver he is there or thereabouts imo. He is maturing from a sulky lad into well rounded adult. His interview on the BEEB was excellent he did himself and his team proud. If he has made any mistakes with his driving he is intelligent enough to make adjustments and learn from them. He is a top-draw driver imo.

I think most people seem to be thinking he is maturing from a well round young lad into a sulky adult.


He is one of the fastest out there.

[Alfisti]

The difference I've noticed with Vettel is his learning curve. The early mistakes made at the beginning of the season have been cut out. He has changed a lot. At the beginning of the year he was a much weaker driver than he is now. I liked him but I thought there was something missing. That one thing was being hard and cold. It was his first deason up at the front and was probably not aware of how up the front he was. I honestly think he misjudged the competition. That is lack of experience of being up at the front. Next time he will go into points saving mode. Before it was gain as many as you can, but if you dont it doesn't matter because we weren't going to get many anyway. I still think the incident with Kubica was 50/50, but he'll not do it again.

When it came down to the most intense part of the season, he matured. He didn't "choke", he did the opposite. He upped his game even though it was too late. As I say he has grown and he has shown that nerves dont get to him. In fact the opposite.

You do realise that RBR brought a MASSIVE update to Singapore?

[PassWind]

Where is all the destroyed / oblitered Webber coming from?

He was leading Vettel and doing well until the team and FIA screwed him up several times.

There was no "destroying" that I saw, infact for all the reputed ability of Vettel, a recovering Webber could run him so close

I mentioned qualifying only and that was a white wash against a guy renown as one of the best over a single lap. Change of tire and pre-season injury aside Vettel blitzed a very quick driver in qualifying.

Races were a different story, but Webber late season I could make the same accusation as to Vettel's early, and Webber ought to know better.

[Madera]

SV is a cool kid. Amazingly mature for his age.

He always has that look of amazement to me that what he's done is WHAHOO!

Just as it should be.

He is up against some tough competitors.

He should be very proud of his accomplishments.

And remain humble.

Only great things remain for him.

We are fortunate to have him in our future at F1!

[Alfisti]

As good as he is, with Lewis and Fred in arch rival teams and likely unwilling to want Seb alongside them ...... where does that leave Seb if McLaren and Ferari continue to dominate? Things were different this year, was that a blip or can RBR or someone else consistantly challenge and does Seb correctly guess who that someone else is?

[Turbo4]

Fact that he creamed Mark Webber good and proper in the same team says it all really.

right.

bunk.

[Arion]

As good as he is, with Lewis and Fred in arch rival teams and likely unwilling to want Seb alongside them ...... where does that leave Seb if McLaren and Ferari continue to dominate? Things were different this year, was that a blip or can RBR or someone else consistantly challenge and does Seb correctly guess who that someone else is?

If his stock remains high, that "someone else" whoever they are would want him.

[Arion]

As for Vettel, well that depends how you rate Webber.

Yup. Webber vs Vettel is a bit like Heidfeld vs Kubica. The performance gap isn't as huge as people think, but the young gun look way more impressive because of their age.

[Turbo4]

You honestly believe the TR was the absolute best car in 2008? Dream on sunshine.

He won at Monza 08 due to a great qualifying performance, and the 'non-customer-spec' Grade A Ferrari engine Toro Rosso were given mid-season. Vettel started from the front, and with no spray in front of him, took off into the distance. I seem to recall an anecdote about one of the RBR drivers, not sure if it was DC or MW, jumping in that Toro Rosso at the end of the year and exclaiming '**** me!' at the level of power it had over the RB4 Renault.

With respect, about 10 other drivers on the grid could have won Monza 08 in the Toro Rosso, and at least 5 or 6 teams could have won that day from Pole.

It wasn't as special as has been made out.

[GregAU]

He is a pretty good driver but only time will tell.

I'm disappointed that he turned into an arrogant whiny tool as the season unfolded though.
He's such a sore loser I can just imagine him being a spoiled prick of a kid when he grew up.

But you cant deny that he can drive.

Edited by GregAU, 04 November 2009 - 04:54.

[slideways]

He's still improving and considering what he's shown us already that's a great sign for the future.

[slideways]

I'm disappointed that he turned into an arrogant whiny tool as the season unfolded though.

He's not the only one.

[velgajski1]

Its always subjective ;) Can you tell for sure how many points those poor qualifyings cost Button? Sure he did less mistakes but that is not the issue. The issue is could he have done better in many races? Sure he could. Cause the way I read your analysis of Vettel, to me some of those races feel more like a "he could have done better" than "he screwed his race up".

But as i said, different views of what is a driver' screw up

I think you actually misread. I counted only races with real errors like slow starts, crashes or getting off the track, I didn't count being outpaced by Webber, I didn't count races like Brazil where I felt it was more teams error / lack of luck. Only pure errors. Fact is - Vettel had 7 of those races. I'm asking again, how many of those did Button have?

[velgajski1]

Yeah I agree mate. Those that criticize ie bash are the ones that would have no idea how hard it is to be a modern GP driver let alone sit in one of those infernal machines. They are only human after all. Flesh and blood like us. With emotions.

Ah why do I bother?

Hope this one doesn't go for my analysis cause I actually like Vettel since I think he's super talented. But in all fairness - he ruined his chances this season mostly himself. At least 20 points lost just by crashing, slow starts, or getting off the track.

[BRK]

Very highly.

[nainz]

He will be Hamilton's greatest rival over the next decade, I don't think I can give him any more praise than that.

[Muppetmad]

Let see, assuming the 6 races you mentioned are as below.

1. Australian GP - Collision with ambitious RK. Racing Accident

2. Malaysian GP - Australia GP's Penalty (not because of collision but due to keep continuing the race with a damaged car). Starting grid third but had a 10-grid place penalty. Not much he could have done starting from 13th place.

That is wrong, sadly. Vettel got a fine for continuing to drive with a wheel hanging off - he got the ten place drop for the collision with Robert, meaning that the stewards deemed that it was not a racing incident. That rippled into Malaysia - but it was still his fault.

[Bishy]

I think people use Vettel's age as an excuse to cover up his mistakes. At Vettel's age, Hamilton was thrown into the sport finished just 1 point off the championship. Nobody used the age excuse for Hamilton then, and they don't now. Vettel has 2 and a half seasons worth of experience now.

[H2H]

Time will tell.

Right now I recon that he is among the five best. We will see what car he will get in 2010.


H2H

[Bishy]

I guess you were living in FantasyLand since July?

Seriously, Vettel is fast, but he's far from being the finished article. If I had to hire a driver, I'd choose Hamilton, Alonso and quite probably Raikkonen before him. Not to say he won't be at the top level, but those saying Vettel is a top-notch driver after this season are delusional.

Hamilton's rookie season "at the same age" but less GP experience was even better than Vettel's and yet he did not get the same love Vettel is getting.

Ignore them, you dared to question the "hype" and simply stated what the rest of us saw (summarised perfectly by Ragged Edge) and you got blasted for it; is it still half-term?

[Bishy]

For my money, Hamilton and Vettel are in a class of their own on the grid. Hulkenberg has the skill to join them.

This is a brave statement to make; you'd be hard-pressed to prove to anyone that he's better than the top 4 - Alonso / Lewis / Kimi / Massa - then you'd struggle even more to prove he's better than Button so that leaves him fighting for 5th position in the real world.

Don't get me wrong the boy is fast and if another year like '09 comes around just like Jenson he'll claim the word-title but he hasn't shown the same "racing ability" Lewis as a rookie showed in his very 1st race and as has been pointed out time and time again stick him at the front (like Massa) and he'll win, if he has to race to win then he struggles.

When he's mastered the art of "raccing for the win" then maybe you can measure him against the best drivers in F1 currently.

Chill on the hype for now please

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

With respect, about 10 other drivers on the grid could have won Monza 08 in the Toro Rosso, and at least 5 or 6 teams could have won that day from Pole.

Shoodav, coodav woodav...............but somehow didn´t. Amazing that.

It wasn't as special as has been made out.