169 replies to this topic

[Cenotaph]

I think you actually misread. I counted only races with real errors like slow starts, crashes or getting off the track, I didn't count being outpaced by Webber, I didn't count races like Brazil where I felt it was more teams error / lack of luck. Only pure errors. Fact is - Vettel had 7 of those races. I'm asking again, how many of those did Button have?

To me a poor start is not a mistake, specially when one of the guys that overtakes you is in a car with KERS, also not being able to overtake Massa isnt exactly an error. So to me, your analysis of Bahrain and Spain doesnt mean much. Then there is also Turkey, it is a fair call, i admit, he did run wide after all, but on the other hand I dont think that was 'The' decisive factor that cost him the 2nd place.

I think you can find some examples of button losing positions at start as well but tbh i have no reason to go after button so i won't bother, as i said he was the driver of the season for me.

[Dalton007]

Vettel is fantastic when he's out in front but doesn't have the Lewis factor when he's stuck in the midfield.

[Chezrome]

He won at Monza 08 due to a great qualifying performance, and the 'non-customer-spec' Grade A Ferrari engine Toro Rosso were given mid-season. Vettel started from the front, and with no spray in front of him, took off into the distance. I seem to recall an anecdote about one of the RBR drivers, not sure if it was DC or MW, jumping in that Toro Rosso at the end of the year and exclaiming '**** me!' at the level of power it had over the RB4 Renault.

With respect, about 10 other drivers on the grid could have won Monza 08 in the Toro Rosso, and at least 5 or 6 teams could have won that day from Pole.

It wasn't as special as has been made out.

Mmm. Ten other drivers would have put that car on pole? Really? However good the car was, I think it was Vettels win.

[mkay]

Shoodav, coodav woodav...............but somehow didn´t. Amazing that.

Well, only 2 drivers were driving that Toro Rosso, so his statement could not have been applied in real life anyways.

[mkay]

To me a poor start is not a mistake, specially when one of the guys that overtakes you is in a car with KERS, also not being able to overtake Massa isnt exactly an error. So to me, your analysis of Bahrain and Spain doesnt mean much. Then there is also Turkey, it is a fair call, i admit, he did run wide after all, but on the other hand I dont think that was 'The' decisive factor that cost him the 2nd place.

I think you can find some examples of button losing positions at start as well but tbh i have no reason to go after button so i won't bother, as i said he was the driver of the season for me.

Actually, one of Button's qualities is that he RARELY went backwards during races, while it is (was) more often the case for Vettel and all the other contenders. In fact, for most of the season, the only 2 drivers who gained positions or stayed put were Hamilton and Button (with supporting data).

Furthermore, if not being able to over a KERS car is not an error, then why was Button able to do so (Bahrain) and why was Webber - Vettel's teammate - able to pass Alonso in Spain? Why was he able to pass Hamilton in Malaysia?

Vettel has been stuck behind slower cars during a lot of GPs and it cost him a bunch of points, and perhaps the title, in hindsight.

Edited by mkay, 04 November 2009 - 08:25.

[Turbo4]

Shoodav, coodav woodav...............but somehow didn´t. Amazing that.

You haven't argued your point, nor argued against mine, at all.

All you've done is be a bit of a tool.

Tell me how i'm wrong - Vettel had THE gun engine in the back of one of the best chassis, with no spray in his face! He wasn't exactly breaking new ground by winning when everything was stacked in his favour.

Needless to mention, he also had Kovalainen playing the Jarno Trulli role with similar skill behind him. I think an Alonso or a Hamilton in second place would have made the job a whole lot harder.

[Turbo4]

Mmm. Ten other drivers would have put that car on pole? Really? However good the car was, I think it was Vettels win.

Well Bourdais put his identical Toro Rosso 4th on the grid - what does that tell you about the car given where Bourdais is plying his trade these days?

Edited by Turbo4, 04 November 2009 - 08:34.

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

You haven't argued your point, nor argued against mine, at all.
All you've done is be a bit of a tool.

How does one debate a subject when the opposing opinion is based on speculation and imaginary scenarios?

Tell me how i'm wrong - Vettel had THE gun engine in the back of one of the best chassis, with no spray in his face! He wasn't exactly breaking new ground by winning when everything was stacked in his favour.
Needless to mention, he also had Kovalainen playing the Jarno Trulli role with similar skill behind him. I think an Alonso or a Hamilton in second place would have made the job a whole lot harder.

Even if the engine Vettel had in the back of his TR was the same as the official Ferrari´s , where were they?
You conveniently overlook the fact that neither the 21 year old in the cockpit, nor the package he was sitting in, had ever won a race. In fact, neither had even scored a podium until that day. It was a seat that, until then, would have been towards the bottom end of any drivers wish list, and yet his victory in atrocious and extremely trying conditions isn´t considered anything special as he simply lucked out, and for that one day he had the best car, worst opposition behind him, and most fortunate weather to help him?
Sorry, but can´t you see how ridiculous you are being?
In a post race interview with Nikki Lauda, he (Lauda) said it was one of the best drives he had ever witnessed in F1.
I can´t argue with that.

[undersquare]

He should be very proud of his accomplishments.

And remain humble.

Seb is not even on nodding terms with 'humble'

He's desperate to catch up with Lewis, his whole pc talk at Abu Dhabi was about how he was going to get him at the pitstops anyway, and how it was only kers that separated them.

Humble people don't dedicate themselves to driving round in circles 0.1 seconds faster than anyone else in front of 300m people, or whatever it is.

He's a competitor. A top competitor with a top ego, as you'd expect.

[holiday]

I can't quite make up my mind.

part of me believes all the journalistic hyperbole about him but... Four DNFs in one season, is that really the making of a champion?

His season was montoya-esque. Great potential, but still too many mistakes. Under the old dropped score rule, he would have already kicked arse, but he has to improve his consistency to take the fight permanently to FA and LH.

[pacwest]

Vettel has certainly changed over the course of this season.

I've detected a bit of arrogance creeping in, which is no bad thing, and certainly required to be one of the top men.

I think in the years ahead we'll see him become a very tough competitor, both in and out of the car.

QFT X2

[mstar]

for me his weakness is overtaking and being "in the pack" he doesn't have the combative skills of alonso/button/hammy/massa/kimi etc. he seems more comfortable on his own doing fast laps and try to pass people in the pits, thats fine in the races he been in since he been in F1. He is relatively the weakest out of the top drivers in this aspect.

But his speed is not in question one of the fastest around!

[Group B]

I think we all agree he's quick but makes stupid mistakes which he seems to be cutting out.

To people saying he's getting cocky, he's 22 ffs, he's still growing up and like Lewis was it's in the public eye which can't be easy.

Although i'm not a massive fan he seems like a good guy, alot nicer than others on the grid seem to be.

Gotta defend Vettel on that one. If it was anybody's fault - it was teams fault. Mclaren did similar mistake, otherwise Lewis would at least pass into Q2, and most likely to Q3.

But Vettel got his lesson in similar way to Hamilton on 2007. - championship is not one in one race, something Button understood right from start to finish.

Two sensible posts; proving that it's possible to appreciate someone without supporting them. SV clearly still has things to learn, areas to improve, and some annoying habits, but as GIB says he's relatively young and comes across as an essentially likable lad with a degree of talent that makes the F1 grid a better place for fans of the sport.

[mstar]

i heard from somewhere not sure where i read it, that SV is average technically and MW is the main person redbull look at to show if a upgrade works or not. Not a critisim of SV as mark been in f1 for years but he has to develop his techincal ability a little. speed can only get u so far the team cnt keep giving u magic set-ups when the car is not as good.

[Chezrome]

Well Bourdais put his identical Toro Rosso 4th on the grid - what does that tell you about the car given where Bourdais is plying his trade these days?

Exactly. Bourdais did not put the car on pole. Vettel did. Just like Piquet and Grosjean did not put the Renault in the top 10 when Alonso did do it, time after time. Vettel took the opportunity that was presented to him and he took it very well. F1 racing is about getting yourself in the best car possible, and then take the maximum result. Vettel did that. If you want my opinion, giving the circumstances, I think that of the current drivers only Alonso is always THERE. Hamilton is perhaps more talented, perhaps even faster, but he is not always THERE all the time.

In this race, Vettel was THERE, and he won. Deservedly. It would have been a travesty if Bourdais would have won. And he didn't.

[DePortago]

In my opinion he is the only guy who can beat Lewis when he has a good day only I think he and Lewis will be the top drivers for the next 10 years. Currently I rate Lewis at 8,9 and Vettel at 8,2

You´re very funny! Not even Senna and Prost were able to win exclusively all the seasons they drove together! Do you remember guys like Piquet or Mansell?

[Cenotaph]

Actually, one of Button's qualities is that he RARELY went backwards during races, while it is (was) more often the case for Vettel and all the other contenders. In fact, for most of the season, the only 2 drivers who gained positions or stayed put were Hamilton and Button (with supporting data).

Furthermore, if not being able to over a KERS car is not an error, then why was Button able to do so (Bahrain) and why was Webber - Vettel's teammate - able to pass Alonso in Spain? Why was he able to pass Hamilton in Malaysia?

Vettel has been stuck behind slower cars during a lot of GPs and it cost him a bunch of points, and perhaps the title, in hindsight.

As far as starts go alone, you don't need to go any further than the Japanese Grand Prix to find a race where Button lost places in the start... His ability to make up places was never in question. But in that regard you also dont need to travel that much back in time to find a good example of Vettel doing great from the back, just look at Brazil.

And what kind of twisted logic makes it a driver error to not overtake someone just because it is possible?

[mkay]

As far as starts go alone, you don't need to go any further than the Japanese Grand Prix to find a race where Button lost places in the start... His ability to make up places was never in question. But in that regard you also dont need to travel that much back in time to find a good example of Vettel doing great from the back, just look at Brazil.

And what kind of twisted logic makes it a driver error to not overtake someone just because it is possible?

He did great, but Hamilton did better with a slower car. We could also argue that Button did something similar to Vettel, as he was risking a lot by overtaking on track.

If you want my opinion, giving the circumstances, I think that of the current drivers only Alonso is always THERE. Hamilton is perhaps more talented, perhaps even faster, but he is not always THERE all the time.

In this race, Vettel was THERE, and he won. Deservedly. It would have been a travesty if Bourdais would have won. And he didn't.

Huh? Give me a race where Hamilton wasn't THERE? And what do you mean by wasn't there? If you mean, extracting most of the car in a particular race, then you're wrong, because Hamilton has proven he could perform with a crap car this season, no matter what you think.

Two sensible posts; proving that it's possible to appreciate someone without supporting them. SV clearly still has things to learn, areas to improve, and some annoying habits, but as GIB says he's relatively young and comes across as an essentially likable lad with a degree of talent that makes the F1 grid a better place for fans of the sport.

I don't personally support him, but I am able to recognize and admire the guy's talent. Like Hamilton, he will only get better with time. As Alonso said this season, his future, long-term rivals will likely be Vettel and Hamilton.

[skid solo]

One of the best, steely determination too. Bit weak under pressure...Race of champions latest episode. In a straight fight I would go for Hamilton.

[SRi130Brett]

Hes got to be second only to Hamilton as the best of the new young guys. Im not a fan nor do I dislike him, but I rate him very highly - he has it all. There were to many mistakes early in the year which cost him in the end, that said, from the mistake at Turkey on lap 1 onwards he sorted his act out and was fantastic on most weekends, especially considering the reduced practice time he had. The damage was done in terms of a title bid though and reliability finished him off. Hes good at qualifying, hes got great race pace. Doesnt seem to have the killer instinct for a pass the way Button does early in a race and that cost him on occasions too, but he can overtake. Hes got a lot to learn like Hamilton, I think their careers could run parallel in F1 for many years. Dare I say hes done better at ironing out the mistakes so far?

Unlike Hamilton and Alonso though Im not as certain about the long term title challenging ability of his team when compared to McLaren and Ferrari. He might have to change teams sooner or later and may have to wait a while for one.

Above all, hes going to be a star for many years, thats for sure.