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Toyota run-aways [not F-1]


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#1101 McGuire

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 16:47

A couple of issues here.

1. News media are money-making companies. They have to manufacture a "wow factor" to keep ratings high and keep the money rolling in.

2. Generally speaking humans seems to be preoccupied with things that will end the world ... even if said thing isn't a realistic problem.



http://imgs.xkcd.com...se_scenario.png


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#1102 dosco

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 17:22

http://imgs.xkcd.com...se_scenario.png


Awesome!!



#1103 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 04:01

The point was that Ford's explanation for their Unintended Acceleration is plainly absurd. They might as well blame a loose roof rack for causing the problem. The floor mat does not control the vehicle's speed.

All the problem with the Ford is that the mats are sliding down and holding the pedal slightly down. The mat IS the problem.

#1104 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 04:03

http://imgs.xkcd.com...se_scenario.png

Sounds fair!

#1105 gruntguru

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 04:59

http://imgs.xkcd.com...se_scenario.png

Someone needs to ask Michael Bay for a worst case scenario on Toyota SUA.

#1106 Zoe

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 14:51

Well, it seems that Toyota now also have a problem with engines that suddenly stop. Maybe they went too far in the compensation of the sudden acceleration ;)

Zoe

#1107 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 15:38

Maybe they went too far in the compensation of the sudden acceleration ;)

:lol:

#1108 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 01:20

Well, it seems that Toyota now also have a problem with engines that suddenly stop. Maybe they went too far in the compensation of the sudden acceleration ;)

Zoe

So do a few manufacturers. A few years ago most Volkswagen owners had the towtruck on speed dial for when it died,,, again. Seems to be ok now. Some LPG Falcon owners were affected for a while too.

#1109 Zoe

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 14:49

Well, Volkswagen had it's own share of funnies; the theft control acting up for instance, blocking the car. Usual answer by the VW garage was "yeah, we know, just bring the car in and we'll fix it for you". Kinda hard to bring a car to the shop when it won't start.

The Phaetons had an engine management system, that throttled the engine down when the output torque would be too much for the (weak) transmission. Especially helpful when trying to cross a street with full throttle.... the computer would turn the engine down and there comes the Freightliner.....

Not to forget the endless stories about the central locking system locking the drives in....

Now I'm right here in LA and have gotten a Toyota Corolla as a rental. Not runaway yet, and no engine stalls either. Knock on wood :-) And yeah, it has gotten the oldfashioned key lock.

Zoe

#1110 Todd

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 22:36

Well, Volkswagen had it's own share of funnies; the theft control acting up for instance, blocking the car. Usual answer by the VW garage was "yeah, we know, just bring the car in and we'll fix it for you". Kinda hard to bring a car to the shop when it won't start.

The Phaetons had an engine management system, that throttled the engine down when the output torque would be too much for the (weak) transmission. Especially helpful when trying to cross a street with full throttle.... the computer would turn the engine down and there comes the Freightliner.....

Not to forget the endless stories about the central locking system locking the drives in....

Now I'm right here in LA and have gotten a Toyota Corolla as a rental. Not runaway yet, and no engine stalls either. Knock on wood :-) And yeah, it has gotten the oldfashioned key lock.

Zoe


Is the Phaeton problem actually to protect the transmission or just crude traction control settings? I've heard that the US market TDi cars with DSG have this problem, so the transmission explanation sounds pretty credible. Apparently they won't go anywhere when you think that flooring the pedal is important.

Rental Corollas are pretty damned impressive. I hammered on one for a couple weeks, only touching the freeway once. I brought the fuel economy all the way down to 31 mpUSg on 87 octane. It was odd getting used to using a key to open the car again though.

#1111 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 23:57

Is the Phaeton problem actually to protect the transmission or just crude traction control settings? I've heard that the US market TDi cars with DSG have this problem, so the transmission explanation sounds pretty credible. Apparently they won't go anywhere when you think that flooring the pedal is important.

Rental Corollas are pretty damned impressive. I hammered on one for a couple weeks, only touching the freeway once. I brought the fuel economy all the way down to 31 mpUSg on 87 octane. It was odd getting used to using a key to open the car again though.

All Toymotas have remote central lock here in Oz, apart from the ones that use the card and pushbutton start.

#1112 Todd

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 00:06

It may well be that they have remote locking here too, but the rental companies are pathological about keys. Enterprise throws all but one key away from every car when it is delivered, then they charge you a fortune and strand you for a business day if you lose the key. Avis had all the keys for the Toyota joined on permanently fused together cable, so you had to carry all the keys at all times. No remote on the loop though.

#1113 Terry Walker

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 15:51

Loose mats - well, back in the day, when I was fitting carpet into a rubber-matted Renault to make it look more modern, my Dad was deeply unimpressed. Never have anything on the floor that can move about, was his message. I found out, after a few subsequent scarey moments, that he was right. I've never had a loose floor mat since. That's a lot of years. If my Dad understood the problem back in around 1961, why has it taken the industry so long to wake up?

One of my scariest moments, I must add (looking back fondly on a enjoyably miss-spent youth) was when an empty beer can rolled forward and came to rest under the brake pedal just when I needed brakes . . . Well, the car and I survived unscathed, but it was a lesson I've never forgotten.

No loose mats anywhere near the pedals. Ever.

Incredibly, loose shag-pile pure sheepskin mats have been, for years, optional in Rolls-Royce cars. They look awful, and in the driver's pigeon-hole they are bloody dangerous.

(Edit - a loose beer can rolled under my keyboard)

Edited by Terry Walker, 09 July 2010 - 15:53.


#1114 MatsNorway

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 16:41

No loose mats anywhere near the pedals. Ever.


I like to slide the car sometimes, but i am not THAT hard on the gas. :D

Edited by MatsNorway, 09 July 2010 - 16:43.


#1115 bombastic

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 22:49

Loose mats - well, back in the day, when I was fitting carpet into a rubber-matted Renault to make it look more modern, my Dad was deeply unimpressed. Never have anything on the floor that can move about, was his message. I found out, after a few subsequent scarey moments, that he was right. I've never had a loose floor mat since. That's a lot of years. If my Dad understood the problem back in around 1961, why has it taken the industry so long to wake up?

One of my scariest moments, I must add (looking back fondly on a enjoyably miss-spent youth) was when an empty beer can rolled forward and came to rest under the brake pedal just when I needed brakes . . . Well, the car and I survived unscathed, but it was a lesson I've never forgotten.

No loose mats anywhere near the pedals. Ever.

Incredibly, loose shag-pile pure sheepskin mats have been, for years, optional in Rolls-Royce cars. They look awful, and in the driver's pigeon-hole they are bloody dangerous.

(Edit - a loose beer can rolled under my keyboard)


Well - and I may introduce myself as this is the first post I make here after several years of lurking... (I am a german engineer, acually worting in Motorsport and - just at this very moment - am quite drunk)

The problem with all these mats sounds like quite some specifical USA thingy (no pun intended). As nobody doesn't want to pay for an additional replacement of the original floor mats when they sell the car back to the dealer, additional mats are used to be placed upon or replace the original ones. Of course, those were never designed to be held back by whatever system Toyota uses for their mats. I've seen velcro, plastic pins and whatever, depending on the car's make, with the sole pupose to fix the carpets. But an additional mat, casually thrown upon them is.......the carelessness, ignorant and idiotic way that you have to deal with, if you have real-existing customers. Even whe just on in amillion customers is stupid enough to... smoke while tuning his injection system and gets burned. Just remember some of those fires at petrol stations, caused by peapole putting the fuel tap in the car and re-entering the driver's seat - leaving it again, loaded with lots of galvanic induced electricity to touch the oppositicely loaded fuel tap...

But - with the wrong publicity, you are the one to get grilled.

The floor mat story is one of all those pieces, that made up all the misery that toyota has to endure - additional to some potential mistakes they may have made just on their own. I don't know enough to make a judgement about those.


I mean - toyota didn't biuld a Pinto - but as a mass producer, even a sub-otpimal detail leaves a big mark in Toyotas history.







Well, I NEVER worked for Toyota. But I understand the situation, an enigneer could find himself in (mentally), if somebody dies in one of "his" cars. Which never happened to me (knock on wood).

#1116 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 23:04

(Edit - a loose beer can rolled under my keyboard)

LMAO

#1117 bombastic

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 23:30

LMAO


Bloody hell, I missed that one :rotfl:

#1118 Greg Locock

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 01:53

I mean - toyota didn't biuld a Pinto -


Fun fact. The Pinto was significantly safer (lower casualties per occupant mile) than its main competitors, in practice. Check the NHTSA statistics.

#1119 McGuire

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 02:09

The Pinto was introduced in 1971, when Toyota had yet to build anything as good. Except for the fuel tank design the Pinto was a very decent car. Two great little engines, near-classics really: the 1600 Kent and the 2000cc OHC.



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#1120 Todd

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 20:39

Toyota's late '60s Corona was much better than the Pinto. Toyotas of the day were so much better than the subcompacts from Ford and GM that they made conquests of almost everyone who tried a Toyota, and they would get a shot at many who tried a Pinto or Vega.

Anyway, the government has a report on the Toyota 'sudden acceleration' issues, and they say DRIVER ERROR, except when the driver was a cop who killed his family. That was a floor mat. Thin blue line cuts right through you. Anyway, the data loggers revealed that drivers are incompetent and Toyota engineers are not. Shocker.

#1121 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:10

The Pinto was introduced in 1971, when Toyota had yet to build anything as good. Except for the fuel tank design the Pinto was a very decent car. Two great little engines, near-classics really: the 1600 Kent and the 2000cc OHC.

In 71 the Kent motor was very dated making the japanese offerings quite good, particularly Nissans L series. The 2 l OHC engine ws a strong modern item though but was and is bloody heavy!

#1122 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:19

Toyota's late '60s Corona was much better than the Pinto. Toyotas of the day were so much better than the subcompacts from Ford and GM that they made conquests of almost everyone who tried a Toyota, and they would get a shot at many who tried a Pinto or Vega.

Anyway, the government has a report on the Toyota 'sudden acceleration' issues, and they say DRIVER ERROR, except when the driver was a cop who killed his family. That was a floor mat. Thin blue line cuts right through you. Anyway, the data loggers revealed that drivers are incompetent and Toyota engineers are not. Shocker.

Surprise surprise. Most of these accidents were driver error but some were not. But the minority that were not seem to being swept under the carpet. As is poor design that makes it hard to take the cars out of gear and to turn the engine off when the car does accelarate.
And I would suggest that not just Toymota have these problems.

#1123 Todd

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:21

In 71 the Kent motor was very dated making the japanese offerings quite good, particularly Nissans L series. The 2 l OHC engine ws a strong modern item though but was and is bloody heavy!


The strength of the Kent in the Pinto was that the only real domestic competition was the Vega 2300, an engine that didn't have as much life as a good wax job. All Chyrsler had was a rebadged Hillman Avenger. All the Japanese lacked by 1971 was brand acceptance.

#1124 Todd

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:26

Surprise surprise. Most of these accidents were driver error but some were not. But the minority that were not seem to being swept under the carpet. As is poor design that makes it hard to take the cars out of gear and to turn the engine off when the car does accelarate.
And I would suggest that not just Toymota have these problems.


An autocross competitor just inverted his $300,000 polished aluminum Cobra into a creek due to a stuck throttle. He had a clutch and a 4-speed stick offering him options beyond killing the engine, but still spun repeatedly and then flipped after competing in a driving event. The problem is defective people.

http://jalopnik.com/...y...ne=true&s=i

#1125 cheapracer

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 08:01

In 71 the Kent motor was very dated making the japanese offerings quite good, particularly Nissans L series. The 2 l OHC engine ws a strong modern item though but was and is bloody heavy!


Toyota in 1971 had the K and R series - no different in basic pushrod design structure to the Kent, in fact the R's had 3 main bearing cranks not that that gave any trouble.






#1126 Ian G

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:48

An autocross competitor just inverted his $300,000 polished aluminum Cobra into a creek due to a stuck throttle. He had a clutch and a 4-speed stick offering him options beyond killing the engine, but still spun repeatedly and then flipped after competing in a driving event. The problem is defective people.

http://jalopnik.com/...y...ne=true&s=i


I posted earlier that i saw a Mini go into a river at a gymkhana with a stuck throttle,the guy couldn't reach the ignition switch with a harness on but when asked why he didn't just knock it out of gear and brake he said he didn't think of it,i think some people just freeze in an emergency,talking to driving instructors over the years they have countless examples of it.



#1127 Todd

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 15:01

Toyota in 1971 had the K and R series - no different in basic pushrod design structure to the Kent, in fact the R's had 3 main bearing cranks not that that gave any trouble.


In the US, by 1968 we were getting the 8R in Corona MKIIs and pickups with 5 main bearings, SOHC valvetrains, and 108 hp. It was also praised by the contemporary press for its subjective characteristics. Good engines are more than spec sheets. Toyota engines became known for their durability and smoothness while Detroit's 4 cylinder efforts became known for oil consumption and thrashiness.

#1128 Todd

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 15:03

I posted earlier that i saw a Mini go into a river at a gymkhana with a stuck throttle,the guy couldn't reach the ignition switch with a harness on but when asked why he didn't just knock it out of gear and brake he said he didn't think of it,i think some people just freeze in an emergency,talking to driving instructors over the years they have countless examples of it.


It seems that many people even panic when the cause of their 'stuck throttle' is their clumsy foot mashing the gas pedal when they think it is the brake. I suppose in such cases it should be no surprise that they can't think to do something involving the transmission or ignition.

#1129 McGuire

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 16:08

Toyota's late '60s Corona was much better than the Pinto. Toyotas of the day were so much better than the subcompacts from Ford and GM that they made conquests of almost everyone who tried a Toyota, and they would get a shot at many who tried a Pinto or Vega.


Not even Toyota ever believed that. I drove and worked on those cars. They were cheap and nasty junk. I can scrap a '69 Corona with my hands. The pickups were okay but how good does a $1500 pickup need to be? The paint was horrible and they had no fit and finish but who cares. The Datsun 510 was head and shoulders superior to the Toyota but not as good as the Pinto, especially in durability. The products improved over time. The initial success of the Japanese automakers in the USA wasn't based on quality but on price. To a very large degree, this is what what caused Detroit to underestimate them so badly.

Anyway, the government has a report on the Toyota 'sudden acceleration' issues, and they say DRIVER ERROR


This is what you would expect to find in the great majority of cases. See post #5 in this thread. The great hazard lies in dismissing them all as such. The manufacturer who does so is making a big mistake and it will surely rear up and bite them in the ass. What part of this have I gotten wrong so far?

Edited by McGuire, 14 July 2010 - 16:09.


#1130 Todd

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 16:33

Not even Toyota ever believed that. I drove and worked on those cars. They were cheap and nasty junk. I can scrap a '69 Corona with my hands. The pickups were okay but how good does a $1500 pickup need to be? The paint was horrible and they had no fit and finish but who cares. The Datsun 510 was head and shoulders superior to the Toyota but not as good as the Pinto, especially in durability. The products improved over time. The initial success of the Japanese automakers in the USA wasn't based on quality but on price. To a very large degree, this is what what caused Detroit to underestimate them so badly.



This is what you would expect to find in the great majority of cases. See post #5 in this thread. The great hazard lies in dismissing them all as such. The manufacturer who does so is making a big mistake and it will surely rear up and bite them in the ass. What part of this have I gotten wrong so far?



Pintos sold very well for most of a decade. They were completely ubiquitous where I grew up while I was a child. Many of my friend's mothers had a Pinto wagon at some point. I rode in more Pintos than I can even speculate about. But you know what? I have never driven one. They were almost all gone when I started driving my friends' cars frequently in 1985. There may have been one in my highschool parking lot in 1986, but they went from being as common as Mazdas are today to gone 5 years after production ended. I also remember the ones I rode in being nasty little caves with interiors that had Porsche room combined with Yugo quality. I still knew people who drove early '70s Coronas and Corollas when I was in college in 1990, and they were never particularly common in '70's Virginia. Besides that, we had road salt.

Unintended aka runaway acceleration is a real problem that has plagued several manufacturers over the past few decades. However, identification and diagnosis are greatly complicated by the fact that misaligned floor mats, operator error, etc. also really happen as well. All the various incidents must be sorted out on a case-by-case basis, which is extremely difficult and time consuming -- especially after the fact.

But it is a real failure and I have seen and experienced it myself. The engineers will typically say something like, "But it's impossible. You would need two failures at the same time to generate that condition." My reply to that: Pfft, two? Is that all? With this junk? What's so far-fetched about that? By "impossible," they mean "unlikely." Of course it's unlikely. If it were an obvious failure, you guys would have figured it out by now.

I identified a cause myself with one mfg'ers vehicle line: cruise control module failure + cruise control brake switch failure on the same vehicle. The module went into its accel mode unprompted and the brake switch failed to cancel it. Away the car goes, and inside a building it is difficult to get the car stopped without hitting something, even if you are prepared for it. Saw it, drove it, duplicated it, fixed it, validated it, so don't even try to tell me it doesn't exist.

I would expect that the problem would be more difficult to achieve in ETC cars than with manual throttle but it is by no means "impossible." Anything that can go wrong, will.


Wrong.


You don't know that. It is not in your power to know that. The most you can say is Audi was never able to identify a mode of mechanical failure. Which is a completely different statement.

Wrong.


...I am sorta scratching my head at the many attempts here to transfer blame for SUA to the car owners. WTF. SUA is an incredibly dangerous vehicle behavior, period. It really doesn't matter if the problem is a poorly designed throttle pedal, criticality of floor mat fitment, awkward or unconventional pedal spacing, an inscrutable software bug, or EMI generated by high-tension wires, etc and so on. You name it, it's still a screwup on the part of the manufacturer and it is ultimately responsible for the failure. Nobody else. For example, if you are building cars for which selecting an ordinary pair of floor mats is a life-or-death decision for your customers, those are some f**ked up cars you are building. Weak design, no way around it. And from my perspective there is a considerable arrogance in this whole deal. Sorry about your family but they installed non-approved floor mats.

WRONG.

Anyway, you wrote a book here. Most of it completely absurd. I'm not going to fix you by pointing it all out. They looked at their little data loggers and none of your fantasy stacked failures occured. Incompetent drivers floored the gas and panicked. Even a floormat on the gas is no excuse for throwing your hands up when you're behind the wheel. Too much will be lost building the Mac of cars with one button so idiots can't hurt themselves.

#1131 desmo

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 17:57

I think in these runaway situations the elderly driver usually finds that standing on the brake (throttle) pedal with full force simply won't slow the car down as one would expect and the transmission is somehow locked into a drive gear and can't be disengaged. If the transmission is manual (unlikely) then the clutch also surprisingly won't disengage either.


^^^ Post #2 of thread :D


#1132 McGuire

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 22:15

Many of my friend's mothers had a Pinto wagon at some point.


Did they take turns using it or did they all crowd in at once?


#1133 SteveCanyon

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 22:58

Toyota in 1971 had the K and R series - no different in basic pushrod design structure to the Kent, in fact the R's had 3 main bearing cranks not that that gave any trouble.



And the T series - I had an early 70's 2T-G, which was an excellent engine for the period.
I also owned a 1974 Corolla KE-30 for a few years and it was again a pretty good thing for the period and price.

#1134 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:36

Originally posted by Todd
.....They looked at their little data loggers and none of your fantasy stacked failures occurred. Incompetent drivers floored the gas and panicked. Even a floormat on the gas is no excuse for throwing your hands up when you're behind the wheel. Too much will be lost building the Mac of cars with one button so idiots can't hurt themselves.


While I agree that there's no excuse for the driver to stop thinking (to save himself), I think you're dismissing some of the evidence way too lightly...

My sister, without equivocation, had SUA when there was NOTHING fouling the pedal. The Corolla ran rampant on her, downshifting when she hit the brakes and only came under control when she killed the ignition.

Yet she was told by Toymotor that it was the floormat. Just as, I believe, my father was told before her. I sincerely believe that is why my father removed every single mat from the car... so they could never tell him that again.

Had it been me in my sister's shoes, Toymotor would have had me on their doorstep until they solved the problem, and they'd have plenty of publicity about how the car had tried to kill me and how the dealer and the company tried to cover it up.

#1135 Slartibartfast

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 11:06

I don't think Toyota can blame this one on a floor mat!

#1136 BRG

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 11:25

It's appalling! That poor bear! Toyota should recall every car they have ever made and fix them so that no more bears are ever put at risk. Blaming this on floormats is just bear-faced effrontery.

Bear with me, it is clear that the whole board of Toyota should be hauled in chains before a Senate committe and beaten with sticks until they admit to their crimes. They must panda to the authorities.

But luckily, BP is now the corporate villain and Toyota will get away with this latest example of grizzly incompetence.

#1137 cheapracer

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:39

It's appalling! That poor bear! Toyota should recall every car they have ever made and fix them so that no more bears are ever put at risk. Blaming this on floormats is just bear-faced effrontery.

Bear with me, it is clear that the whole board of Toyota should be hauled in chains before a Senate committe and beaten with sticks until they admit to their crimes. They must panda to the authorities.

But luckily, BP is now the corporate villain and Toyota will get away with this latest example of grizzly incompetence.


You post is unbearable, way too many clawses honey.


#1138 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 02:18

Everywhere you go some one wants to break in to your car. Phones and Ipods for the backward head brigade, the stereo or the wheels for others and sandwiches for the bears.And I bet the bear did not have a liscence either!

#1139 gruntguru

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 04:21

Everywhere you go some one wants to break in to your car. Phones and Ipods for the backward head brigade, the stereo or the wheels for others and sandwiches for the bears.And I bet the bear did not have a liscence either!

If he did they should cancel it. Fancy sounding the horn before starting off. Poseur!

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#1140 ray b

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 04:35

''''Govt. Study Finds No Electronic Cause for Runaway Toyotas

Published August 11, 2010
Associated Press

WASHINGTON - A government investigation into runaway Toyotas has found no new safety defects beyond problems with accelerator pedals that explain reports of sudden acceleration in the vehicles, according to preliminary findings released Tuesday.

Safety experts have said vehicle electronic systems could be to blame for the problems that have led to Toyota's massive recalls but the review by the government, while still at an early stage, has not found any evidence of those issues.

Toyota, the world's largest automaker, has recalled about 9.5 million cars and trucks since October in a quality crisis that has threatened to undermine the Japanese automaker's reputation for building safe vehicles.

Following congressional hearings, the Transportation Department and NASA have been investigating what may have caused unintended acceleration in Toyotas. The government has received about 3,000 complaints about sudden acceleration and estimated the problem could be involved in the deaths of 93 people over the last decade.

The Transportation Department said it had not found any new causes of the problems beyond two previously identified in the recalls — floor mat entrapment and sticking accelerator pedals.

Toyota said in a statement that the remedies the company has "developed for sticking accelerator pedal and potential accelerator pedal entrapment by an unsecured or incompatible floor mat are effective." The automaker said it has inspected more than 4,000 vehicles and "in no case have we found electronic throttle controls to be a cause of unintended acceleration."

Investigators with NASA and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have reviewed event data recorders, or vehicle black boxes, on 58 vehicles in which sudden acceleration was reported. In 35 of the 58 cases reviewed, the black boxes showed no brakes were applied.

In about half of those 35 cases, the accelerator pedal was depressed right before the crash, suggesting drivers of the speeding cars were stepping on the accelerator rather than hitting the brakes.

Fourteen cases showed partial braking. One case showed pedal entrapment and another showed that both the brake and the pedal were depressed. Other cases were inconclusive.

The black boxes are devices that track a number of details about a vehicle around the time of an accident, including which pedals were applied and how fast the car was traveling.

Olivia Alair, a Transportation Department spokeswoman, said the review of the black boxes was "one small part" of the investigation, which is expected to be completed later in the fall.

Alair said they were still at an "early period in the investigation" and experts with NASA and NHTSA were "conducting research at labs across the United States to determine whether there are potential electronic or software defects in Toyotas that can cause unintended acceleration."

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and NHTSA Administrator David Strickland briefed members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee on the findings of the government review. LaHood and Strickland declined comment following the meeting.

Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., who has led a House investigation into the Toyota recalls, said following the briefing that the findings did not settle the issue of whether electronics could be a culprit. "We've got a long ways to go. We are not ready to make a conclusion one way or another," Stupak told reporters.

Toyota has said its own investigation had found a number of explanations for the sudden acceleration, including pedal entrapment by floor mats, sticking gas pedals and the misapplication of the pedals. The company has said it had not found any cases in which the electronic throttle control was the cause.'''''

#1141 Zoe

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 06:12

It's all fine and well. However, in the case of the runaway Audis, the investigation revealed that there was no fault with the cars (with maybe the exception that the brake pedal could have been mounted differently, far away from the throttle pedal). Still, it took the company how many years to recover from the bad press.

I wonder, what the impact on Toyota is in the long term.

Zoe

#1142 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 21:08

I have a customer right now that used to do vehicle dynamics for the NHTSA and he says the Audi 5000 case was all due to people in the administration not having the balls to say "you people can't drive"

#1143 desmo

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 23:31

Can you blame them? Blame a faceless foreign corporation or blame dear old Aunt Zelda x10000 who swears she was pressing the brake pedal, not the accelerator? Are you calling sweet Aunt Zelda a liar?!?!? Who in a position exposed to political pressure would let the truth get in the way of simple expedience?

#1144 Catalina Park

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 16:28

I am on holiday in England at the moment and I have a Vauxhall Astra rental car. It has a rather annoying throttle that will stick when you change from first gear to second gear. It seems to be set that way for a reason but I can't work out the reason.
When I lift the throttle and push the clutch the revs stay on or shoot up to about 2500 for a second or two. It does not do it in any other gear but first.
Silly cars!

#1145 Tony Matthews

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 16:59

Silly cars!

At least the steering wheel is on the correct side!

#1146 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 23:33

I am on holiday in England at the moment and I have a Vauxhall Astra rental car. It has a rather annoying throttle that will stick when you change from first gear to second gear. It seems to be set that way for a reason but I can't work out the reason.
When I lift the throttle and push the clutch the revs stay on or shoot up to about 2500 for a second or two. It does not do it in any other gear but first.
Silly cars!

Clarksons favorite car!!
Other cars do that too, why i really do not know and I find it extremely annoying too. And not particularly safe either

#1147 McGuire

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 00:17

The ETC and/or idle device closing rates are modulated to prevent rich overrun on closed-throttle decel. Remember the "anti-stall dashpots" of back in the day? There was a little spring-loaded air cylinder on the side of the carb to prevent the throttle from closing too quickly. On carbureted cars the rich overrun was bad enough that the engine could actually stall when the throttle slammed shut suddenly. Too much fuel + not enough air. This is the same deal, except now it's driven more by emissions and economy.

#1148 McGuire

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 00:54

It's all fine and well. However, in the case of the runaway Audis, the investigation revealed that there was no fault with the cars (with maybe the exception that the brake pedal could have been mounted differently, far away from the throttle pedal). Still, it took the company how many years to recover from the bad press.

I wonder, what the impact on Toyota is in the long term.

Zoe


I'm sure Toyota will be fine. There is every indication the company will come out stronger as a result. Strange as it may seem, this is by far not the worst problem that can beset a company with Toyota's troubles, which essentially amount to severe growing pains.

You know, in the case of Audi, the investigations never concluded that there was no fault with the cars. This is one of those myths that won't die. The investigations never identified a problem, which is a rather different conclusion.

I've never personally experienced SUA with the Audi or Toyota. However, I have personally worked with it on two other makes. In these two cases the details and failure paths were somewhat different, but they were essentially the same failure. Saw it myself, so I know it exists. Some years ago an engineer in Sweden circulated a paper suggesting a potential mode of failure in the Audi SUA. When I read the paper I about fell over -- it was the same failure. This is by no means proof of a problem with Audi, not by a long shot, but there is no reason on earth that the same general failure could not occur with the Audi. It's just a car, built out of the same sort of junk to do the same sort of thing.

That said, in any SUA case set, driver error will be the cause or a contributing factor in the majority of cases. That's just how it is with SUA. That doesn't mean SUA doesn't exist; it only makes the "real" cases harder to identify. When the manufacturer decides the problem doesn't exist, then it becomes impossible. Take for example Ray's sister's car from earlier in this thread. She is convinced she has a real SUA, but when she took the car to the dealer, they removed the floor mats from the trunk, installed them in the throttle-jamming position, and then photographed it for the factory records. Voila, one more floor mat case. Sounds ridiculous, but.... we all know that problems are much harder to identify and fix in large organizations than in small ones. The reason is large organizations are much more effective at hiding their problems from themselves. Really, this was only a more absurd example of all the wonderful ways they do this.




#1149 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 03:23

There is no doubt that it happens, and not just Toymotas. A lot of these cars are dumb in design, making them hard to turn off, take out of gear just adds to the problems. Some of it is Cruise Control related too. I have had that happen to me a few times and have heard of it on other makes too.
So the Hearing has been a white wash too.
And as has been said the dealers blame mats [in boot] and every thing except the car.
And most of these accidents have been accentuated by driver error

#1150 Zoe

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 13:13

I had an unintended acceleration today in my Peugeot van. First I thought it was the throttle pedal getting stuck in the rubber mat. After switching off the ignition I coasted to a stop; sure enough, no contact with the throttle pedal and the mat. The throttle pedal even pulled back easily, still the engine was screaming. Turned out to be a dirty throttle linkage before the throttle body. Some WD40 and mechanical persuasion did the trick.

Some reasons for runaway engines are most uncomplicated....

Zoe