1213 replies to this topic

[Slartibartfast]

...Human beings don't want to play with buttons and switches. Audio engineers like to play with buttons and switches.

Audio engineers are human beings too, you know, despite some evidence to the contrary. And most of them are sick of replying "Yes, I do know what all the buttons do".

[OfficeLinebacker]

Hell yeah, not only cars, all consumer products should be designed for intuitive use. Apple has fairly proven the essential importance of that point.

You think there should be a law stating that? lol

[pugfan]

You think there should be a law stating that? lol

I would have thought that should be one of top level design goals for any product. I'll admit it's not very easy to verify though.

[Ray Bell]

Catalina... I'd like more details of the Corolla incident in Goulburn, please...

My sister, driving the car my dad bought new just over two years ago, has had five instances now of 'unintended acceleration'... and it's not the floor mat!

I believe that there was no mat in the driver's part of the floor the first time, which she disregarded because she thought she might have imagined it (driving down the freeway). Subsequent occasions have all been in places where she was about to accelerate, I believe, but it's gone further than intended.

The last one has really got her spooked, she called a tow truck and got it off to the dealer. They are claiming 'floor mat!' but she is saying she was actually looking at the mat as she waited for her daughter for 40 minutes after her classes should have finished and that was only 500 metres before this happened. It was not the mat.

The dealer, of course, says it was the mat. Two reps from Toymotor Australia went down to the Gold Coast from Brisbane to try to convince her it was the mat. They offered to buy the car back and she's taking that offer.

[Lee Nicolle]

I am beginning to be spooked by this thread. Yesterday coming home from Ballarat I was discussing this thread with my lady. Soon after the car started to accelearate by itself, the throttle was on the floor. Jumping on the brakes reverted it to normal. While I will put it down to the aftermarket [though dealer fitted] cruise control of which the resume function is very suss it is a little spooky.And yes it is a Toyota fitted with genuine dealer fit floor mats.
But this is a early 100 series Landcruiser with a cable throttle [and standard key type ignition switches]
While I dont like cruise control at all I too use it to save my leg from aching and try and keep from donating to state revenue with speed fines. But thankfully my lady is scared of it so drives the car!! Which is probably good with 4 ton of 'Cruiser and trailer and racecar.

[Catalina Park]

Catalina... I'd like more details of the Corolla incident in Goulburn, please...

It was a little old lady reversing out of her driveway when the car took off. I would assume that she turned sideways to see out the back window and twisted her body a bit and got the wrong pedal by mistake. But it could be another cause.

[Ray Bell]

So are there contact details?

A name? Phone number? When did it happen? What model Corolla?

I've had one conversation with the Toymotor Technical guy in Melbourne who's supposedly investigating the incidents. He assured me it's the mat. When I told him the first occasion took place when there was no mat in the car, he said it was the mat.

Fact is, the Corolla floor is unlike the others I've seen pictured. The pedal isn't that close to the carpet and the pedal, when depressed, goes into a bit of a recess, so no mat could get in there. The only way a mat could do anything would be if it gathered up and got on top of the pedal.

Edited by Ray Bell, 14 December 2009 - 09:32.

[cheapracer]

Gotta laugh, yesterday i used the factory's run around diesel Hi Ace (Toyota Chinese copy, no idea what brand motor) and upon arriving at my destination couldn't work out for a few minutes how to turn it off - it's 2009 and yet it has a pull stop cable! Haven't used a pull stop in years.

I still often turn the wipers on instead of a turn signal in my Japanese car, thats what 8 years of driving an Alfa Romeo does to you (besides the Phychiatrist's bills - bloody Italian cars......).

[Ray Bell]

Speaking of wipers... this was posted on another forum tonight (McGuire will love it!

From another forum
Well , I've got a cracker here, so if you can beat it then fess up.

My work car is an RA Rodeo v6 petrol 5-spd.

After the last service they replaced the wiper blades, the next time it rained they had cocked it up and the screen was streaky, so I pulled over and, with the wipers on, turned the engine off so they were vertical on the drivers side so I could reach them. I made a few adjustments and then manually operated the wiper up and down. The first time I thought thats cool you can just pull them up and down without damaging the wiper gearbox, it seemed to be on a clutch or something.

That's not the wierd bit, the wierd bit is when I did it again a little faster, the engine cranked over!

Scared the crap out of me as it was in low gear and the car jumped forwards and almost over my foot.
I couldnt believe it, so when I got back to work I tried our other Rodeo, same thing. I went to the dealer and told him. Of course he didnt believe me, so I did the same thing and again it cranked the engine. I asked him if there was a prize or some thing - he said "No!" and I said, "Well I guess it will be enough of a prize when they all get recalled!"

So if any one has access to a Rodeo the same, give it a go and see what happens.

The Rodeo is an Isuzu pickup, the RA is from 2005. I guess it sells under other names in other parts of the world.

Now... I wonder if we can get floor mats up there on the windscreen?

[McGuire]

That's really interesting. I think I know what it is but I wish I had a wiring schematic of the vehicle in front of me to sort it out for sure.

EDIT: The clues here are that the ignition is shut off and the wiper switch is turned on.

Edited by McGuire, 14 December 2009 - 17:20.

[Grumbles]

Speaking of wipers... this was posted on another forum tonight (McGuire will love it!

few adjustments and then manually operated the wiper up and down. The first time I thought thats cool you can just pull them up and down without damaging the wiper gearbox, it seemed to be on a clutch or something.

That's not the wierd bit, the wierd bit is when I did it again a little faster, the engine cranked over!

Scared the crap out of me as it was in low gear and the car jumped forwards and almost over my foot.


The Rodeo is an Isuzu pickup, the RA is from 2005. I guess it sells under other names in other parts of the world.

Now... I wonder if we can get floor mats up there on the windscreen?

Well of course it cranked over. Rodeo wipers are mechanically driven from the engine via a series of tiny driveshafts and u-joints. The speed control is done with a miniature Powerglide..

[Canuck]

Apparently without a converter

[Wuzak]

Apparently Toyota have managed to offend a few viewers with one of its ads...

http://news.ninemsn....t-incestuous-ad

[Lee Nicolle]

Apparently Toyota have managed to offend a few viewers with one of its ads...

http://news.ninemsn....t-incestuous-ad

Well it may take the focus away from the floor mat ECUs!

[J. Edlund]

Oh hell no. I want the ability to turn off the ignition when I want to, which might be immediately. What if there is zero oil pressure, a massive fuel leak, or the car is on fire? You want me to push the button three times in five seconds? Shall I be doing this before, during, or after I am going for the fire extinguisher? Screw that. That is not a material improvement over the traditional ignition switch. That is a huge step backward. The principle here should be to give ultimate control to the operator, not the minimum we can get away with allowing him. WTF is that.

How long does it take to press a button three times within five seconds? Half a second? One second?

What if there is zero oil pressure, well, will a second make the difference? Do you think that most drivers are able to shut the engine off before it sustain damage? You have seem to forgotten who the car is designed for! Most people I know of would in a sitation like this wonder what the blinking light on the instrument panel is for, not understand that there is an engine fault that requires the engine to be immediately shut down. Also, if this was a serious problem it could easily be solved by two cheap pressure sensors and an auto shut off function.

The same can be applied to a massive fuel leak. Will the average user notice the problem before it's too late? In car fires that occur during driving the driver often just have time to brake, steer to the side of the road and get out of the car.

To give the operator ultimate control is usually a good way to **** up seriously. There are always a couple of operators that think they know better than the guys designing the system, only to later find out they didn't.

How about we build cars with controls that are simple, familiar, and intuitive enough that drivers don't require a two-page tutorial to get off the parking lot? That's good, elegant design. Our job as an industry is not to force human beings to adapt to the machine. That is an arrogant and self-absorbed approach to design. Our job is to adapt the machine to the human beings.

...for thirty years the car and home audio industries waged a competition to see how many rockers, buttons, and switches they could put on the faceplate, half of which served little to no meaningful purpose. Then Apple introduced the iPod and the market was changed forever. Human beings want to listen to music. Human beings don't want to play with buttons and switches. Audio engineers like to play with buttons and switches.

If you plan to make the cars exactly how they always been and never introduce new technology it might work, but unless that is your plan it won't work. There will always be some new technology that all drivers aren't aware of and even the best technology can be dangerous if it's used the wrong way. Even things that are common today like an ignition key and the automatic transmission was once new.

Your comparison with iPod is really bad. Infact, the whole idea with passive start and entry is to simplify and make it easier. You can just walk up to you car with the key in your pocked, pull the door handle and the car unlocks automatically. Then you just get in and push a button and the engine start. How can it be simpler than that? A mechanical key certainly isn't and since a mechanical key only allow around 1000 possible combinations it isn't particulary safe from an anti-theft perspective either.
I would also claim that it was compact low cost flash memory that changed the market for music players, but that's a different subject.

[J. Edlund]

Speaking of wipers... this was posted on another forum tonight (McGuire will love it!



The Rodeo is an Isuzu pickup, the RA is from 2005. I guess it sells under other names in other parts of the world.

Now... I wonder if we can get floor mats up there on the windscreen?

To get the starter motor to crank the engine you only need to supply +12V to the starter motor, something normally done over a relay. The windscreen wipers are normally powered by another relay. But to crank the engine and to start the engine are two different things. The engine won't start just because the startermotor is running.

Normally though, the starter relay should not be powered when the ignition is turned off.

[Ray Bell]

Yeah, I think we're all familiar with these things...

We're all just wondering what quirk of the wiring and componentry sent the twelve volts to the starter the wrong time... whether it was going to start the engine or not.

[imaginesix]

If you plan to make the cars exactly how they always been and never introduce new technology it might work, but unless that is your plan it won't work.

The idea is not to introduce new technology without considering the operator's interface with it.

Motorcycles have a highly standardized ignition system even between different brands, that consists of an ignition key, main power interrupt and starter button. This very setup could be implemented on cars, even with the elimination of the mechanical ignition switch, leaving just a main power toggle that uncovers the starter button, kind of like a safety switch.



The first time anyone starts the engine, they have to lift the main switch then press the starter. This would make it immediately obvious how to shut off the engine without the need for any kind of training or study program while maintaining the geek appeal that manufacturers are looking for.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Quite, that makes the car seem quite gnarly, something only a real man can control.

Like an F16 or something.

[Catalina Park]

News just in....
Freeway terror as cruise control jams.

Edited by Catalina Park, 15 December 2009 - 09:45.

[saudoso]

The first time anyone starts the engine, they have to lift the main switch then press the starter. This would make it immediately obvious how to shut off the engine without the need for any kind of training or study program while maintaining the geek appeal that manufacturers are looking for.

Kinf of the expose lenses->camera on, hide lenses->camera off on sony's point & shooters. Geeky indeed.

[GreenMachine]

News just in....
Freeway terror as cruise control jams.

I saw that item today. Its a bit of a worry - good thing he wasn't on the down side of the Westgate Bridge

Maybe this thread should be merged with the Fraud - sorry,I meant Ford - thread

[J. Edlund]

The idea is not to introduce new technology without considering the operator's interface with it.

Motorcycles have a highly standardized ignition system even between different brands, that consists of an ignition key, main power interrupt and starter button. This very setup could be implemented on cars, even with the elimination of the mechanical ignition switch, leaving just a main power toggle that uncovers the starter button, kind of like a safety switch.



The first time anyone starts the engine, they have to lift the main switch then press the starter. This would make it immediately obvious how to shut off the engine without the need for any kind of training or study program while maintaining the geek appeal that manufacturers are looking for.

Often standardization lags behind new technology. When for instance the automatic gearbox was introduced there wasn't a standard availible that regulated how it should work, even if there is one today.

Manufacturers aren't looking for 'geek appeal' they are looking for simplicity, and that solution isn't really as simple as pressing a button.

Also, as is mentioned here the key got it's own safety problem when used to turn off a car in motion
http://www.dpccars.c...tle-Problem.htm
Shifting into neutral seems to work fine though

[Ray Bell]

That's really strange...

The handbrake stopped it?

[Tony Matthews]

It snapped off in his hand, he leant out of the window and jammed it in the spokes. Simples...

[Ray Bell]

Talking to a local motoring journo here last night... one who's willing to take up the issues and not fear the manufacturers to the same extent that others seem to...

He said that the US has seen Toymotor 'get over' the floor mat issue. That they are now, presumably, accepting that there's an electronics problem.

Has anyone seen reference to this?

[Lee Nicolle]

This sounds suss to me.Taking the keys out almost certainly will jam the steering lock on. Taking it out of gear SHOULD stop it driving.
At a guess another attention seeker. Lets see how it pans out.
Nothing on our local online news here in Oz about this today.

[Greg Locock]

I saw the Explorer one. The driver said he couldn't put it in neutral or switch the key off.

Hmmm.

[Lee Nicolle]

You can simply knock an 02 Explorer into neutral from drive. So almost certainly an attention seeker.
Though they do have very suspect cruise control evidently.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
This sounds suss to me.Taking the keys out almost certainly will jam the steering lock on. Taking it out of gear SHOULD stop it driving.
At a guess another attention seeker. Lets see how it pans out.
Nothing on our local online news here in Oz about this today.

Nothing on online news? You've got to be kidding!

I put <news+"cruise control"+police> into google and came up with news from new.com, the ABC, the Herald Sun, 3AW,
the Brisbane Times, the Sydney Morning Herald and the Courier Mail... and I haven't got to the bottom of the first page listing yet!

It's there all right.

And I don't think he's being a prima donna, either, check his quotes:

''That's when I realised I had a bit of a problem,'' he said.

The 22-year-old, recently arrived from Queensland, called a Ford service centre and asked why he could not turn the key off. He was told not to drive the car as it would be dangerous.

''I said, 'Well, that's kind of the problem, I'm actually in the car and can't stop it','' he told Fairfax radio.

I'll bet he loved it when the Ford people put him on hold!

He reports trying to turn it off, put it out of gear and turning the brakes to useless. But it's got me wondering... will he be charged with speeding or with using a mobile phone while driving. He was talking to a police sergeant on the mobile for over twenty minutes.

Edited by Ray Bell, 16 December 2009 - 01:23.

[Lee Nicolle]

Nothing on online news? You've got to be kidding!

I put <news+"cruise control"+police> into google and came up with news from new.com, the ABC, the Herald Sun, 3AW,
the Brisbane Times, the Sydney Morning Herald and the Courier Mail... and I haven't got to the bottom of the first page listing yet!

It's there all right.

And I don't think he's being a prima donna, either, check his quotes:

''That's when I realised I had a bit of a problem,'' he said.

The 22-year-old, recently arrived from Queensland, called a Ford service centre and asked why he could not turn the key off. He was told not to drive the car as it would be dangerous.

''I said, 'Well, that's kind of the problem, I'm actually in the car and can't stop it','' he told Fairfax radio.

I'll bet he loved it when the Ford people put him on hold!

He reports trying to turn it off, put it out of gear and turning the brakes to useless. But it's got me wondering... will he be charged with speeding or with using a mobile phone while driving. He was talking to a police sergeant on the mobile for over twenty minutes.

Not on Adelaide Now national online. I looked at Sunherald to find it for interest sake. Which seems a better site.
You can select nuetral on an Explorer while driving, I have driven them. Though not my favorite car!

[Ray Bell]

But if there's something haywire in the Cruise Control?

Maybe there's a 'protective' device to prevent accidental disengagement of gears while the cruise control is in action?

[dosco]

Manufacturers aren't looking for 'geek appeal' they are looking for simplicity, and that solution isn't really as simple as pressing a button.

Have you driven a BMW lately? My brother in law has a 2008 M5 ... the switchology in the cabin is simply outrageous. Nothing simple about operating that car, IMO.

Shifting into neutral seems to work fine though

There have been mentions on this thread that the people in question could not switch to neutral. Did you miss that?

[dosco]

How long does it take to press a button three times within five seconds? Half a second? One second?

What if there is zero oil pressure, well, will a second make the difference? Do you think that most drivers are able to shut the engine off before it sustain damage? You have seem to forgotten who the car is designed for! Most people I know of would in a sitation like this wonder what the blinking light on the instrument panel is for, not understand that there is an engine fault that requires the engine to be immediately shut down. Also, if this was a serious problem it could easily be solved by two cheap pressure sensors and an auto shut off function.

The same can be applied to a massive fuel leak. Will the average user notice the problem before it's too late? In car fires that occur during driving the driver often just have time to brake, steer to the side of the road and get out of the car.

I think you're missing the point. How do you disengage a runaway engine? It doesn't appear to be as simple as you make it out to be.

To give the operator ultimate control is usually a good way to **** up seriously. There are always a couple of operators that think they know better than the guys designing the system, only to later find out they didn't.

Simplicity doesn't lead to cock-ups ... people lead to cock-ups. Humans seem to operate under Murphy's principles and mess up everything regardless.

Your comparison with iPod is really bad. Infact, the whole idea with passive start and entry is to simplify and make it easier. You can just walk up to you car with the key in your pocked, pull the door handle and the car unlocks automatically. Then you just get in and push a button and the engine start. How can it be simpler than that? A mechanical key certainly isn't and since a mechanical key only allow around 1000 possible combinations it isn't particulary safe from an anti-theft perspective either.
I would also claim that it was compact low cost flash memory that changed the market for music players, but that's a different subject.

It seems simple from an operational standpoint, sort of like traction control in F1 ... the software takes the control away from the driver, and the operator relies on the smarts of the software architect and electrical engineers to ensure the system functions correctly/smartly. Seems that Toyota didn't do that in this case.

[imaginesix]

Manufacturers aren't looking for 'geek appeal' they are looking for simplicity, and that solution isn't really as simple as pressing a button.

Sure, but simplicity from who's point of view, the manufacturer's or the user's? Push button starting systems are probably simpler to manufacture, simpler to sell, but they are not simpler to operate if people are crashing at least in part because of their design.

[V8 Fireworks]

You can just walk up to you car with the key in your pocked, pull the door handle and the car unlocks automatically.

So if you park by a coffee shop, and drink your coffee at a roadside table near you car, the theif can open the door and extract your laptop computer, and sprint down the road? How is that good?

[Ray Bell]

Why don't they just drive the car away?

I mean to say, it's hot weather here, sprinting with a laptop under your arm can be sweaty work in this weather...

[OfficeLinebacker]

There have been mentions on this thread that the people in question could not switch to neutral. Did you miss that?

Exactly. The PEOPLE could not switch to neutral. No conclusive proof that it's impossible for the VEHICLES to be switched into neutral. Just that the humans couldn't accomplish it at the time.

[Ray Bell]

I must admit, I don't think my sister tried that in her episode last week...

But turning off the engine killed the problem for her anyway.

The guy in the Melbourne runaway in cruise control tried to get it out of gear, so I guess he'd done that before and knew how to do it. So I guess that conclusively proves (as he was trying to stop the thing for half an hour... and the brakes were a non-event after a few minutes) that he tried hard to do so.

[Tony Matthews]

BBC News has just shown footage and voice-recordings of the locked cruise-control episode. I admit to scepticism over most things, but this really did come over as a non-event. Even the driver's 'Oh my God! I'm going to die!' was delivered with all the passion normally reserved for turning down the offer of a second cup of tea. I may be wrong, but there is nothing convincing about this episode.

[imaginesix]

Why don't they just drive the car away?

I mean to say, it's hot weather here, sprinting with a laptop under your arm can be sweaty work in this weather...

I think they'd have to kidnap the owner to get the key within range of the interior sensors, and then that just raises the stakes to a whole different level. Then again, the laptop might have biometric security devices so having the owner's digits or face nearby might be necessary anyways.

[Ray Bell]

He was only 22, Tony...

And tell me, when was the last time you deliberately crashed over a median strip on a 6-lane road and drove towards the oncoming traffic?

Is that not an act of total desperation?

[Tony Matthews]

As I said Ray, I may be wrong - and his age doesn't signify a great deal. There are younger people who can cope with extreme situations, and older people who would never be capable.

[Lee Nicolle]

I would be very surprised if the brakes would not pull it up from 80k against the cruise. Anything much faster maybe not.It was not accelarating just holding a constant speed.And you can get them into nuetral by clicking the stick forward.
Besides as i said yesterday the whole thing is suss, seems an attention seeking thing to me.
Toyotas that accelarate by themselves are one thing but this is somewhat different.
Cruise control faults are fairly common but braking overrides the cruise.

[dosco]

Exactly. The PEOPLE could not switch to neutral. No conclusive proof that it's impossible for the VEHICLES to be switched into neutral. Just that the humans couldn't accomplish it at the time.

True. However the root cause must be determined, and whilst I agree that there may be a people problem here, it should be proven the cars do not lock the operator out of selecting neutral.

[Ray Bell]

Lee, it's because it's holding a 'constant speed' that the brakes become useless...

With the gearbox automatically downshifting to resist the brakes, as if the 4WD is climbing a steep hill, it's working hard to stay at that speed set on the cruise control.

And as has been mentioned a page or two back, if the guy gave it a couple of half-hearted tries first, the brakes might be fairly hot to start with. He said the brakes went 'hard'. So the pedal went to the floor... the fluid boiled. How would he know that unless it happened?

Did you look at the picture of the Lexus brake posted by McGuire?

[Greg Locock]

Was 2002 exploder drive by wire? was it shift by wire? If it wasn't shift by wire then it is very unlikely that there was anything stopping him shifteing into neutral. And I refuse to believe that the ignition key was disabled.


Up until recently you could shift our trans into reverse at 80 kph(or faster probably) if you so desired, which can be an amusing party trick when done right.

[Ray Bell]

No, it probably didn't have 'drive by wire', but the cruise control takes over, doesn't it?

So check out the quotes:

"They told him to turn the ignition off, which he could not do because the car was moving. Then he was put on hold."

"The 22-year-old, recently arrived from Queensland, called a Ford service centre and asked why he could not turn the key off. He was told not to drive the car as it would be dangerous."

"The Explorer will now be examined by police and Ford. Mr Weir claims six Australians have contacted him on Facebook to claim similar issues with their cars."

"The driver of the Ford tried a number of options to stop his vehicle, including braking, attempting to knock it out of gear and also trying to remove the keys, all to no avail,” Sen-Constable West said."

"FOOTAGE has emerged from a UK documentary which details stories of runaway Ford Explorers eerily similar to Chase Weir's freeway horror this week.

The Dispatches episode, entitled 'Runaway Cars', was broadcast in the late 1990s on British television and investigated numerous complaints that were made by Ford customers about being unable to slow their Explorer down.

One man, Chris Merrick, died when he crashed in a Bristol park in April 1998.

A couple's story of being unable to slow down on the motorway when returning home from London in early 1997 bore strong resemblances to Mr Weir's account of his panicked 30-minute trip down the EastLink freeway on Tuesday."

Or listen to the first part of the phone call to 000:

http://media.theage....t-1-976035.html

Or the second part:

http://media.theage....cue-976138.html

And a comment from among the plethora of anti-Weir statements given to the media:

"I hope you don't mind me posting this link:

http://suddenacceleration.com/?p=490

...as it confirms power brakes will fail to work when the vehicle is trying to accelerate.

Isn't it kind of strange that when there is a mismatch in vehicle input - that is acceleration and braking similtaneously - that vehicles are designed so that the accelerating will over-ride the braking.

You'd have thought it would be the opposite."

[Lee Nicolle]

Was 2002 exploder drive by wire? was it shift by wire? If it wasn't shift by wire then it is very unlikely that there was anything stopping him shifteing into neutral. And I refuse to believe that the ignition key was disabled.


Up until recently you could shift our trans into reverse at 80 kph(or faster probably) if you so desired, which can be an amusing party trick when done right.

Fairly certain they are mechanical shift. Rod or cable. If not they feel it. With the throttle I do not know.
I spent about an hour driving one recently through the hills While it did not excite me though it drove and ran ok. I accidently selected nuetral [a couple of times]when reselecting drive after going down one gear on some long downhill stretches. More operator error than vehicle fault.

[Catalina Park]

A tale of three trucks at my work.
Truck 1. Had a fault with the brakes. When the driver pushed down on the brake pedal (this is air brakes so the feel is not like hydraulic brakes) the pedal went hard and the truck didn't stop.
Truck 2. Had a fault with the auto gearbox. It is an Allison auto with a keypad for a gear-change, it has no lever. Due to a fault in a plug on the wiring harness the truck was stuck in 4th gear with a locked up torque converter. No matter what button you pressed on the keypad it would not come out of 4th gear. The driver didn't select 4th, he was in drive when it went wrong.
Truck 3. Had a fault with the accelerator pedal. The potentiometer was mucking up causing the throttle to stick.

If just one of those trucks had managed to get all three faults at once imagine the outcome.