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Toyota run-aways [not F-1]


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#251 McGuire

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 10:53

Was 2002 exploder drive by wire? was it shift by wire? If it wasn't shift by wire then it is very unlikely that there was anything stopping him shifteing into neutral. And I refuse to believe that the ignition key was disabled.


Up until recently you could shift our trans into reverse at 80 kph(or faster probably) if you so desired, which can be an amusing party trick when done right.


I am pretty certain that Explorer uses a mechanical shift linkage and a conventional ignition switch. I want to take this young man's story at face value but it's difficult. It's certainly possible that the ignition switch and shifter could fail at the same time but in listening to the audio that is available, I strongly suspect they did not fail. I suspect this young man did not know how to use them. I could certainly be wrong.

I gathered the impression that neither the driver nor the police operator/dispatcher have a useful conception of what makes an automobile go/not go. I was struck with how the ignition switch and gear selector were bruited as possibilities as though they were buttons one might try on a kitchen appliance -- push that one and see what it does. Maybe there is more audio we haven't heard that proves me wrong about this... I hope so.



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#252 McGuire

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:10

This seems like we have a teaching opportunity in front of us. We all need to ask our friends and neighbors: Do you know what to do with a stuck throttle? Do you know to select neutral and stand on the brakes, and if the shifter doesn't work, to shut off the ignition? We need to engage people and talk to them about the controls on their vehicles, what they do and how to use them. The Edmunds.com video on SUA is pretty decent. It wouldn't hurt to send a link to the people in your circle.

It occurs to me that if your training as a driver includes time with manual transmissions, your chances of getting into trouble with a stuck throttle are greatly reduced. At least you grasp the concept that the engine can be disengaged from the drive wheels.

#253 cheapracer

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:14

I would have advised the guy to slam on the brakes as hard and as suddenly as he could after some time to assure they were cool first rather than "push them hard" in the hope the sudden grab might overcome the engine.

I can imagine that the shifter may go into neutral as the brakes are applied? but I imagine he never tried both at the same time concentrating on driving while attempting singular motions.

#254 cheapracer

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:16

Truck 1. Had a fault with the brakes. When the driver pushed down on the brake pedal (this is air brakes so the feel is not like hydraulic brakes) the pedal went hard and the truck didn't stop.


What was that about? Most of us realise that air brakes fail the right way and you come to a grinding and sometimes embarrassing halt.


#255 Greg Locock

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:31

Ray, no, on a conventional car the cruise control merely applies throttle as required to maintain a speed. It does not "take over" the gearbox, which responds to the throttle just as it ever did. Even on a throttle by wire car the same is true. If the car is shift by wire then it is possible (but not likely) that shifts into neutral are disabled.

Explorer had a conventional ignition lock. Therefore I choose to think that the kid is at best mistaken. Explorer has apparently got problems with its cruise control switch, but this causes unintended warming of the car (yes, a joke) not any mysterious tendency for the car to take control of its destiny.




#256 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:45

Btw to get back on the 3 second kill switch thingy, I don't think it's a good idea either. My Dell laptop's power switch works the same way. If it locks up and you have to physically shut it off, you have to hold the button down. I do it maybe a few times a month, and everytime I'm thinking "why is this taking so long?" and I'm not panicking or moving at any great speed, I'm just impatient to get my computer rebooted. I bet most people in a total flap wouldn't hold it down long enough because your sense of time when waiting for something to happen is completely skewed under the best of conditions.

#257 McGuire

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 12:15

Some background: I believe there are around 2000 open, reported cases of SUA in the USA at the moment. I would assume there are probably 2x or 3x that many events that went unreported to the NHTSA, that being just the way these things go. I think one manufacturer -- the one taking the heat in the CHP trooper case -- accounts for around 40 percent of the cases.

I know of two manufacturers (not the manufacturer above) with documented cases of SUA where the fault was identified on the vehicle. Both were cruise control related and though the mechanisms were different, both were roughly the same failure, or to be more precise, pair of failures. The electronic control module failed, pulling the throttle wide open or somewhere near it, and the brake switch failed, eliminating the driver's ability to cancel the cruise control's operation. Both these cars were what we call "garage" or "driveway" cases-- that is, the SUA occurred not at highway speed but as the vehicle was started and placed in gear. The highway cases are more of a recent development.

I guess my point is that SUA has been a problem for a number of manufacturers, not just the one or two that have been publicized, and they are complicated -- vehicle failures and operator error and/or ignorance and/or panic in every conceivable combination. Obviously, the vehicle failures are the manufacturers' responsibility, but if they really want to address the problem they need to deal with the operator error/ignorance part of the situation as well. One, with education; two, by doing a better job in design.

#258 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 12:36

Originally posted by Greg Locock
Ray, no, on a conventional car the cruise control merely applies throttle as required to maintain a speed. It does not "take over" the gearbox, which responds to the throttle just as it ever did. Even on a throttle by wire car the same is true. If the car is shift by wire then it is possible (but not likely) that shifts into neutral are disabled.....


I realise that Greg, but the way I wrote it implies that I don't...

What I was saying was that the Cruise Control 'takes over' in the sense that it keeps pouring on throttle to overcome the 'obstacle' that has caused the vehicle to want to slow. This in turn causes downshifting, as in kickdown, and puts even more torque into driving the car and overcoming the brakes.

#259 McGuire

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 12:46

Isn't it kind of strange that when there is a mismatch in vehicle input - that is acceleration and braking similtaneously - that vehicles are designed so that the accelerating will over-ride the braking.


I think the problem is greatly amplified by the fact that when brakes are applied with the throttle open, the car behaves in a manner the driver has never experienced before -- he/she gains the impression that the brakes "aren't working" and lets off the pedal. Again, basic ignorance about how cars work. These poor folks may as well be trying to drive their refrigerators -- they have no idea what the mechanism is doing. Nor do they have any clear idea of what to do with the gear selector or ignition switch in such an emergency because they don't really know what these controls do.

As enthusiasts and car people we tend to overestimate what civilians actually know about automobiles and driving, assuming that anyone who doesn't know these things must be an idiot. No, they are simply uneducated -- to a degree we can find hard to believe.

We could design cars so that the brakes always stop the car regardless of engine output to the wheels -- idiot proof, I suppose -- but they would suck. Much bigger brakes with ridiculous rotor mass, smaller engines.

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#260 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 13:27

I'd like to clarify, however, that the quote you took from me was a sentence I was quoting from elsewhere...

Yes, you're right. The average driver is pretty 'average' in the modern exaggerated meaning of the word. No... I won't do that! 'Average' is 'average'. So the average driver is pretty useless.

What's worse, when you try to explain something, or ask something detailed about driving or an incident that's happened, they simply don't want to know.

A nephew of my wife's rolled his Commodore a few years ago on a very slight bend in a 6-lane road. When I asked what happened, he said he didn't know. When I tried to enquire further, he didn't want to know!

Doomed to repeat their errors ad infinitum!

#261 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 13:50

Was 2002 exploder drive by wire? was it shift by wire? If it wasn't shift by wire then it is very unlikely that there was anything stopping him shifteing into neutral. And I refuse to believe that the ignition key was disabled.


Up until recently you could shift our trans into reverse at 80 kph(or faster probably) if you so desired, which can be an amusing party trick when done right.

...and very expensive when done wrong?

#262 McGuire

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 14:45

I'd like to clarify, however, that the quote you took from me was a sentence I was quoting from elsewhere...


Of course. I didn't take that to be your comment and don't mean to suggest that it was.


#263 gordmac

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 18:11

Hired a VAG product a few years ago, only way to stop the engine was to stall it, the engine kept going even with the key removed from the ignition. The mechanic who came to fix it said the cause was a wrong bulb in the rear light cluster. Seemed a potentially dangerous consequence for a simple mistake.

#264 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 20:28

Oh yes...

A Mitsubishi Sigma wagon we had several years ago had the alternator light come on. I'd also noticed that the right hand blinker had failed.

As this was at a time when we were running backwards and forwards to the hospital where my father in law was dying, I went to the auto electrician rather than stumbling around it myself. Someone let slip that the blinker globe failing would cause the alternator light to come on...

I fixed the blinker and the auto electrician missed out on a all too easy $100.

#265 Catalina Park

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 07:23

What was that about? Most of us realise that air brakes fail the right way and you come to a grinding and sometimes embarrassing halt.

There was a leaking seal inside the pedal valve (the pedal on air brakes is like a regulator) Air was getting around the seal and when you applied the brakes the air was pushing against the pedal instead of into the brakes.
The first driver that had the problem slowed the truck down with the gears (in the auto box)
The second driver used the handbrake to slow down.
The third driver refused to drive the truck till the valve was replaced.  ;)

#266 cheapracer

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 09:09

The first driver that had the problem slowed the truck down with the gears (in the auto box)
The second driver used the handbrake to slow down.
The third driver refused to drive the truck till the valve was replaced. ;)


I know the answer to that one!

I'd employ the one with the big tits! :rotfl:


#267 Catalina Park

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 09:34

I know the answer to that one!

I'd employ the one with the big tits! :rotfl:

I will pass that on to Human Resources. :drunk:

#268 GreenMachine

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 11:14

I know the answer to that one!

I'd employ the one with the big tits! :rotfl:


http://forums.autosp...howtopic=118602

Cheapie, there is a pattern emerging here ...

:lol:

#269 imaginesix

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 13:35

I know the answer to that one!

I'd employ the one with the big tits! :rotfl:

I think in Catalina Park's line of employment, that would mean this guy;
Posted Image

#270 Catalina Park

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 10:10

I think in Catalina Park's line of employment, that would mean this guy;
Posted Image

I know that bloke. He drives a concrete pump in Canberra. :drunk:


#271 Tony Matthews

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 10:36

I know that bloke. He drives a concrete pump in Canberra. :drunk:

Drives it - or carries it?

#272 Catalina Park

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 12:32

Drives it - or carries it?

Probably breast feeds it. :drunk:

#273 SteveCanyon

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 07:05

I remembered today about another type of vehicle that is very common and has a handy kill switch.

Posted Image

Pretty much standard fitment on every motorbike I know of.

Apologies for the useless bump.

Billzilla

#274 Tony Matthews

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 09:05

Apologies for the useless bump.

That's OK - when's it due?

#275 Canuck

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 20:48

Those little button-head allen screws were the bane of my existence as a Harley tech. Harley saw fit to use them everywhere - lots of steel screws in aluminium parts with not-sufficient purchase for the wrench to remove them. Torx is your friend.

#276 McGuire

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 22:07

One trick is to keep a set of high-quality male hex sockets set aside and used only for breaking loose stubborn fasteners, keeping them fresh and sharp for a nice snug fit. Then another set of decent quality for running screws in and out. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything there.

Torx is superior to hex, but both are light years ahead of those $#@% crosshead fasteners used on Japanese bikes (and cars) for years. Commonly known as cheesehead screws. When the slots don't open up the heads will just twist right off. God I hate them.

#277 imaginesix

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 22:25

Better yet, use hex keys instead of a wrench. It gives you a lot more room to maneuver and with a bell-end on the long side for articulation you can spin them out quickly too.

They are the only worthwhile Snap On tools I own. Using their 1/16" key to remove a set screw from magnesium, it felt like I was applying torque to a piece of string but it broke the screw loose no problem.

#278 Todd

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 23:43

Try it with your own car and see how you go. Then try it at 70 or 75mph.


The Audi accidents were happening in driveways and garages. The speeds involved were typically less than 15 mph. The drivers claimed they were pushing the brakes for all they were worth and the car just ran into the wall, their other car, over their kids that much more aggressively. The reality is they had their foot on the gas as they selected drive or reverse and then they mashed the gas when the car lurched. All Car and Driver was proving was that the brakes were much more powerful than the drivetrain, as with any mass market road car. Morley Safer ran the story on 60 minutes with a bunch of manufactured stunts because he hated Germans. He as much as admitted it in an Automobile Magazine interview. When asked why he ran such a misleading hatchet job he told about how he made his fiance sell her VW Beatle because of WWII. He may still be fighting that war today. Who knows what Mcguire's motivation is.

#279 desmo

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 00:12

Snap-On impact drivers actually made those Japanese cheesehead fasteners almost workable.

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#280 Canuck

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 03:21

Snap-On hex/allen tools are ****, as opposed to "the ****". Their upside is I've always had them replaced for free, the downside is that was regular enough that the truck kept my specific sizes on-hand all the time. I have a beautiful set of Swiss (or German?) rainbow coloured allen keys that are, in a word, perfect. I've yet to cause them damage despite ham-fisted frustration from time to time.

#281 McGuire

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 10:52

Fastener/wrenching formats are a fascinating subject; one could go on for days. The Japanese crosshead screw is actually something called JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard), one of a number of screw types that looks like a Phillips but is not. These include Pozidriv, Supadriv, Frearson aka Reed & Prince, Torqset, BNAE/French Recess, etc. In most cases, if you attempt to interchange them and use anything but the correct driver it will tend to cam out of the fastener head, damaging both the screw and the tool. There is also a modified JIS screw that is apparently designed to use either a crosshead or blade-type screwdriver when in fact, neither is especially effective. Best way to get those out is to grind an oversize blade driver to a tight fit, I have found.

All these screw types do have one thing in common: they were designed for powered drivers in mass production using magnetic or vacuum-operated tools that hold the screw on the driving bit. That is to say, being able to get the screws out again at some point in the product's future is not necessarily a primary design consideration. I ran into yet another type just this week, perhaps. I picked up a five lb box of 2.5-in decking screws at the local box store to build benches and shelving for the new shop, only to find that the screw head, which appeared to be Phillips, actually does not fit any known driver type very well. I can't say if this is actually a new fastener type or just some whimsical manufacturing by our friends in the East.

Another internal wrenching format similar to Hex/Allen is XZN or triple-square, found on VW, Opel, and other German makes. Looks vaguely like Torx or Polydrive but does not interchange in any way. Not hexalobular like Torx but three superimposed squares as the name indicates. The common sizes are 6, 8, 10 and 12mm. A pretty good format but with some problems.... the smaller sizes tend to round out, while in the larger sizes you must take care to clean out the internal wrenching area of any pooled oil etc before engaging the tool.

#282 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 11:34

Fastener/wrenching formats are a fascinating subject; one could go on for days. The Japanese crosshead screw is actually something called JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard), one of a number of screw types that looks like a Phillips but is not. These include Pozidriv, Supadriv, Frearson aka Reed & Prince, Torqset, BNAE/French Recess, etc. In most cases, if you attempt to interchange them and use anything but the correct driver it will tend to cam out of the fastener head, damaging both the screw and the tool.

I ran into yet another type just this week, perhaps. I picked up a five lb box of 2.5-in decking screws at the local box store to build benches and shelving for the new shop, only to find that the screw head, which appeared to be Phillips, actually does not fit any known driver type very well. I can't say if this is actually a new fastener type or just some whimsical manufacturing by our friends in the East.

If it looked like Pozidrive I would have suggested Prodrive, but you say it was a Phillips-type. Prodrive seems to have been short lived, it had twice as many little score-lines radiating from the main cross indent, and the supplied bit had ridges on the faces. I've only seen it on fairly large timber screws, the bit did seem to have more purchase than a Pozi.

I have always been fascinated by tools and fasteners, perhaps we need a new thread! Happy New Year.

#283 McGuire

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 12:43

The Audi accidents were happening in driveways and garages. The speeds involved were typically less than 15 mph. The drivers claimed they were pushing the brakes for all they were worth and the car just ran into the wall, their other car, over their kids that much more aggressively. The reality is they had their foot on the gas as they selected drive or reverse and then they mashed the gas when the car lurched. All Car and Driver was proving was that the brakes were much more powerful than the drivetrain, as with any mass market road car. Morley Safer ran the story on 60 minutes with a bunch of manufactured stunts because he hated Germans. He as much as admitted it in an Automobile Magazine interview. When asked why he ran such a misleading hatchet job he told about how he made his fiance sell her VW Beatle because of WWII. He may still be fighting that war today. Who knows what Mcguire's motivation is.


You don't know that. You have no way to know that, and you are stating it as "the reality" when it was simply the company line. The actual reality is that the company was never able to nail the cause with reasonable certitude. The car failed in the marketplace, for a host of reasons of which SUA was only one, before they ever got there. It became a moot point. The main similarity between this case and the present one is the approach taken by the companies in resolving the issue -- the wrong one IMO.

I also reject the notion that the customers are somehow to blame for the pedals being poorly or awkwardly positioned. That is not design logic; that is liability lawyer logic. Where should the pedals be placed in an automobile? Where their drivers would expect to find them (and where they won't become entangled in floormats, I would add). If otherwise competent and experienced drivers are crashing through their garages and flattening their lawn ornaments because the pedals are abnormally placed, that is not good design. That is weak design.


#284 McGuire

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 13:17

Snap-On hex/allen tools are ****, as opposed to "the ****". Their upside is I've always had them replaced for free, the downside is that was regular enough that the truck kept my specific sizes on-hand all the time. I have a beautiful set of Swiss (or German?) rainbow coloured allen keys that are, in a word, perfect. I've yet to cause them damage despite ham-fisted frustration from time to time.


I have a set of old Craftsman hex sockets in which the bit is ordinary hex stock secured in the socket body by a set screw. When one end of the bit becomes worn you can remove it and turn it around to the fresh end. From there, you can then also grind down to a fresh portion of the hex, or replace the bit with another piece of hex tool stock, any length you want, and start the process all over again. You can see how they had to stop making those. It could put them right out of business.

To me, Snap-On seems to have lost its way. The prices are beyond ridiculous, quality has slipped, and the company seems to be focused more on selling branded toys and trinkets and collectors' editions of their tool chests with tacky paint and graphics. Craftsman seemed lost for a while but is now headed back on track again. I just bought a circular saw for under $100 that is as good as any I have ever used, including my grandfather's old 50 year-old Craftsman saw (now my Dad's) that takes two boys to carry. However, I didn't realize until I got the saw home that it was the ladies' model -- it has a laser guide. I have to admit that the laser is kinda nice once you get used to it.

#285 Canuck

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 20:13

I'm not sure why Robertson square-drive fasteners don't really exist outside of wood screws. Their purchase is almost infallible assuming a proper (as opposed to Eastern) fit (and material quality) between screw head and driver. In fact, I can't think of having one ever thwart me on removal attempts. That may be a product of their limited application as opposed to anything superior in their design.

I used to be able to defend my Snap-On purchasing when they came to me once a week and never questioned a warranty request. Now that I'm getting paid to sit behind Solidworks all day instead of twisting wrenches, I tend to look at Craftsman, Husky and SK. The Canadian Tire stores carry two levels of wrenches - your standard hardware store type with thick bodies and that sand-blasted nickel finish and their pro series which looks like it was made on the Snap-On line. Prices are very easy to swallow but I've not needed any new wrenches lately so I haven't tried 'em out. I did however splurge at Home Depot the other day on a $12, 20-piece set of SAE and metric Husky wrenches. Interestingly, it has an 11/32" which I've only ever used on old Chevy starter solenoids, but no 12mm. The 22 piece set that covers the same range, but has 11/16" and 12mm that my set are lacking is 4 times the price. I figure somebody somewhere blew the set design as no 12mm is akin to no 1/2". It lives in the house and goes in the Previa on road trips (with the spare 12mm from the Snap-On box of course ;) ) Besides, how do you pass up 20 shiny chrome wrenches for twelve Canadian dollars? :D

Edited by Canuck, 01 January 2010 - 20:16.


#286 Todd

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 22:35

You don't know that. You have no way to know that, and you are stating it as "the reality" when it was simply the company line. The actual reality is that the company was never able to nail the cause with reasonable certitude. The car failed in the marketplace, for a host of reasons of which SUA was only one, before they ever got there. It became a moot point. The main similarity between this case and the present one is the approach taken by the companies in resolving the issue -- the wrong one IMO.

I also reject the notion that the customers are somehow to blame for the pedals being poorly or awkwardly positioned. That is not design logic; that is liability lawyer logic. Where should the pedals be placed in an automobile? Where their drivers would expect to find them (and where they won't become entangled in floormats, I would add). If otherwise competent and experienced drivers are crashing through their garages and flattening their lawn ornaments because the pedals are abnormally placed, that is not good design. That is weak design.


It wasn't just the company line. It was also the NHTSA conclusion: pedal misapplication. The pedals were right where they should be for actual drivers. They were positioned so that a driver could operate both pedals with the heel and toes of the right foot. The Audi 5000S was bought by an awful lot of people coming out of cars like Oldsmobiles and Buicks. The same sort of incompetents that buy SUVs were hopping on the German luxury car bandwagon, and the 5000S was the cheapest way to get US style size with a German luxo badge. Most people who experienced 'unintended acceleration' were women of small stature. For whatever reason, they were most likely to think they were applying the brake when they had their foot resting on the gas pedal. The NHTSA study also found that the car with the second highest incidence of pedal misapplication was the Mercury Grand Marquis. The Medicare Sled's pedals were as far apart as any on the market, but the drivers were that much more addled. The mechanically identical Ford Crown Victoria was not an outlier on the unintended acceleration graph. The problem was demographic, not ergonomic. People who never should have bought enthusiast's cars bought 5000S Audis. People who shouldn't be licensed to drive bought Grand Marquis Mercuries. Not all cars are appliances meant to be bought by dullards, or at least they weren't in 1985.

#287 McGuire

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 04:39

It wasn't just the company line. It was also the NHTSA conclusion: pedal misapplication.


NHTSA does not have the authority to make such a determination and lacks the resources anyway. That's not what they do. A manufacturer made this same claim recently in regard to a recall related to SUA and was slapped back down by the agency. In public with an official statement, an extraordinary step. I can't recall the last time that occurred.

#288 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 19:43

Originally posted by Todd
.....The problem was demographic, not ergonomic. People who never should have bought enthusiast's cars bought 5000S Audis. People who shouldn't be licensed to drive bought Grand Marquis Mercuries. Not all cars are appliances meant to be bought by dullards, or at least they weren't in 1985.


And what's changed now?

I find this totally understandable...

#289 Todd

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 20:10

And what's changed now?

I find this totally understandable...


You now need a size 12 shoe to heel and toe any car. There are interlocks so that you need to have your foot on the brake pedal to shift out of Park. There are all sorts of driver input over-rides to prevent you from damaging the car or yourself. Ironically, this is why accidents can now potentially be caused by system failures. In 1986 it was absolutely driver error that caused Audis to run through garage walls. My 1988 BMW could be started in gear with the clutch pedal and brake both released. This comes in handy in certain off road situations. It can also be used as a limp home feature when the clutch mechanism has failed. My 2007 Honda requires the clutch pedal to be pushed in whether you're in neutral or 1st gear before the starter will engage. Maybe if less machines coddled incompetents, we'd have a better populace.

#290 gruntguru

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 22:35

My 1988 BMW could be started in gear with the clutch pedal and brake both released. This comes in handy in certain off road situations. It can also be used as a limp home feature when the clutch mechanism has failed. My 2007 Honda requires the clutch pedal to be pushed in whether you're in neutral or 1st gear before the starter will engage. Maybe if less machines coddled incompetents, we'd have a better populace.


I find it annoying when I have to put my foot on the clutch before a car will start. I grew up owning hot Minis. The pressure plate on the original Mini has no leverage built in, so throw-out bearing load to disengage the clutch is the full pressure plate clamping force. This means that Minis with uprated clutch will usually crank slower with your foot on the clutch and obviously the crankshaft thrust bearings are suffering a little with high loads and no oil pressure. I built a turbo race engine that cranked so slowly with your foot on the clutch, it wouldn't start at all. (2 x "race" diaphragms stacked were required to avoid clutch slip.)

I still have an aversion to cranking an engine with the clutch in.

#291 Canuck

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 23:13

It can also be used as a limp home feature when the clutch mechanism has failed.

I have the Previa with a clutch/starter interlock that requires the pedal to be pressed to the floor to start. I've also had the clutch accumulator fail and leave me without means to disengage the clutch. That in no way prevented me from starting the van and getting it home and then over to my shop some 14km away. While I don't particularly like it, it didn't leave me any more or less stranded.

#292 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 21:40

Todd...

I don't think the number of 'dullards' has changed all that much. And as you say, we're all paying the price.

#293 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 23:58

In the paper over the weekend that the current shape Prius is being recalled with a fault with the brakes both here in Oz and overseas.
And Toyota Australia is now advertising there new lemon, the hybrid Camry.
Having just done a 3500 km trip over the last 10 days the most common road hogs all drove bloody Camrys!!

#294 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 02:33

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
In the paper over the weekend that the current shape Prius is being recalled with a fault with the brakes both here in Oz and overseas.....


That would be giving the taxi passengers waiting at the rank a lot of confidence as the next Prius cab drives up...

#295 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 08:27

That would be giving the taxi passengers waiting at the rank a lot of confidence as the next Prius cab drives up...

There is one here in Adelaide. Its on Gas!!

#296 dosco

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 18:08

Morley Safer ran the story on 60 minutes with a bunch of manufactured stunts because he hated Germans. He as much as admitted it in an Automobile Magazine interview. When asked why he ran such a misleading hatchet job he told about how he made his fiance sell her VW Beatle because of WWII. He may still be fighting that war today. Who knows what Mcguire's motivation is.


Heh.

My friend's father, a USAF Chief Master Sargeant (not quite as salty as a Navy Master Chief, but close), used to refer to VolksWagens as "Nazi footlockers."

Another friend's old man was averse to purchasing anything made in Germany or Japan because of WW2. Needless to say, at the time his Harmon-Kardon stereo was probably worth more than all of the cars in their driveway (well, not really, but back in the day the H-K equipment was pretty expensive).





#297 primer

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 13:29

Toyota said to install brake override systems in all cars by end of 2010



Excerpt:

Toyota North America president Yoshi Inaba told Automotive News that the system will force the engine into idle if it senses the driver is trying to apply the brakes unsuccessfully. The Toyota Camry and Lexus ES350 will be the first models to get the new system, with installation beginning this month.



#298 cheapracer

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:27

Toyota said to install brake override systems in all cars by end of 2010



Excerpt:


Wow thats fantastic, way to go Toyota, the world leaders of responsible car making!!

Oh hang on, aren't they the assholes that ........


#299 SteveCanyon

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 14:44

Wow thats fantastic, way to go Toyota, the world leaders of responsible car making!!

Oh hang on, aren't they the assholes that ........



I wonder if it'll kick-in if you left-foot brake, like I do with all automatic gearboxed cars?
I sometimes blend the use of the throttle & brake at times.


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#300 primer

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 15:28

I wonder if it'll kick-in if you left-foot brake, like I do with all automatic gearboxed cars?


I am certain it will, I cannot see any manufacturer installing even more sensors in the footwell to differentiate between right foot braking or left foot braking. AFAIK Porsche were the first to have this feature, although in their case it was to make sure that the driver inputs did not make the stability control's job more difficult. When this drama first started, I was surprised to learn that Toyota/Lexus didn't have this feature already, as they are renowned for making the best 'appliance' cars.