3412 replies to this topic

[goingthedistance]

No, I think Monza will be good for Red Bull. Maybe not a win but didnt we say the same last week about Spa?

i cant see them toucing mclaren or force india in sector one, but sector two might be good. The exit of Lesmo2 is the key to the back straight, a bit like the fast Turkey left hander and subsequent straight The Red BUll was untouchable there. Then there is the Variante ascari where you need a car that can change direction well, wich is also good. The back straight is for Mclaren no doubt but parabolica also needs a car with good downforce. I think itl be closer than many think.

They have got to get down to the starting problems though. Vettel at Hockenheim, now Mark here..its vital for succes.

I still think Monza will be Red Bull's worst race by a fair margin. They qualified 8th and 9th last year, and looked off the pace all weekend. If they manage a podium it would be brilliant, but I think effective damage limitation would be 4th and 5th. Some people are saying that the Renault engine is not so bad given how Kubica and Webber performed in Spa, but I think that was more a case of Red Bull stripping off the downforce compared to McLaren (confirmed during the practice sessions) and Renault developing a terrific F-duct. By running less downforce than McLaren Red Bull's speed differential in S1 and S3 was not as horrific as it could have been, but in S2 the two teams were quite similar as McLaren were able to keep more downforce on due to their superior F-duct and engine capacity on the straights.

The starts have really been poor all season. Whilst we've now had three obvious stuff ups, the Red Bulls have been getting off the line slower than the McLarens and Ferraris all year. It is a handicap.

Edited by goingthedistance, 30 August 2010 - 07:50.

[krapmeister]

...Next thing I noticed was Vettel driving into the rev limiter. Looks like he was on a wet set up after all. I guess Alonso was wrong in thinking he was the only one to do that. Strangely though Mark seemed to not hit the rev limiter. Different strategies?...

I definately remember Webber hitting the rev limiter quite early on the Kemmel straight while trying to pass Kubica after the pitstop.

When they get to the rev limit also depends on how good a run they get through Eau Rouge...

[Cplus]

In the BBC coverage Ant Davidson

don't you mean Jake Humphrey

(he looks like him a bit, about a foot taller though)

[goingthedistance]

don't you mean Jake Humphrey

(he looks like him a bit, about a foot taller though)

No I meant Ant Davidson, on the Red Button coverage post-race. He was a special guest.

Edited by goingthedistance, 30 August 2010 - 12:55.

[Cplus]

No I meant Ant Davidson, on the Red Button coverage post-race. He was a special guest.

must have missed that bit!

[SilentKiller]

.

Edited by SilentKiller, 04 September 2010 - 13:00.

[MadYarpen]

I really hoped after invasion in caption time it won't show up again. Now I have to kill myself.

Edit: all right, there was a horner's naked picture above!

Edited by MadYarpen, 04 September 2010 - 13:29.

[NeilR]

I definately remember Webber hitting the rev limiter quite early on the Kemmel straight while trying to pass Kubica after the pitstop.

You do know that some in this thread will use this comment to suggest that Webber was deliberately trying to blow his engine up so that Vettel would have a crash on the resultant oil slick and because of this he should be sacked before he can cause another GFC and the abdication of the Queen...

Edited by NeilR, 04 September 2010 - 13:15.

[Melbourne Park]

Neither does it mean that the Mercedes is heavier or larger, if the minimum weight is 85kg I would be extremely surprised if Mercedes could not get down to that weight, if you could pray-tell explain why it would be heavier and larger aside from speculation to support your ridiculous supposition.

Its ignorance that people think the MB engine would be heavy.

The current formula created much heavier engines. Toyota after the rule changes, had an engine way too light. It cost them money to re-design engine wall castings in order to put weight into something productive, rather than attaching ballast to the engine block. All the engines would be minimum weight and have the C of G at the limit allowed. Mercedes greater power is an entirely different issue to the engine weights which are a piece of cake for F1 quality engineering to achieve.

[SilentKiller]

Lotus closing in on Renault deal
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/86450

I thought this was slightly relevant here, unless that engine switch rumour is bull***t.

[TURU]

Lotus closing in on Renault deal
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/86450

I thought this was slightly relevant here, unless that engine switch rumour is bull***t.

Yes, it is relevant for Red Bull. Now they can exchange engines with Lotus. Red Bull Cossworth sounds fast, doesn't it ??

[KateLM]

Lotus closing in on Renault deal
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/86450

I thought this was slightly relevant here, unless that engine switch rumour is bull***t.

Renault only have 1 customer team, while Ferrari and Mercedes have 2. So no, not really that relevant.

[SilentKiller]

Renault only have 1 customer team, while Ferrari and Mercedes have 2. So no, not really that relevant.

So does that mean Red Bull will no longer be their customer next season???

Edited by SilentKiller, 07 September 2010 - 13:16.

[Hacklerf]

Red Bull are going to Mercedes

[KateLM]

So does that mean Red Bull will no longer be their customer next season???

No, its means that Renault can supply another team without it affecting their relationship with Red Bull. If Red Bull changes engines, it won't have anything to do with this (unless they inexplicably decide that they want Cosworths and swap contracts with Lotus).

[TURU]

Red Bull are going to Mercedes

Not really . First of all, Mercedes does not want to supply Red Bull. Why should they supply their (arguably the best) engines to the biggest rival. They can still supply FI which is a bit safer, and have the money as well.

[artista]

Not really . First of all, Mercedes does not want to supply Red Bull. Why should they supply their (arguably the best) engines to the biggest rival. They can still supply FI which is a bit safer, and have the money as well.

Maybe as an exchange for a driver?

Sorry, but this year’s silly season is being too dull

[TURU]

Maybe as an exchange for a driver?

Sorry, but this year’s silly season is being too dull

There is no way Mercedes would want to change their wunderteamdeutschland

[artista]

Well, if the driver involved in the exchange is Vettel, Mercedes would keep an all German drivers line.

It won’t happen, though.

[metz]

The problem is, FI is not paying their engine bill and Mercedes is threatening to cut them off.
I would think that takes precedence over trying to get Heidfeld or anyone else a ride.

[Sakae]

Red Bull are going to Mercedes

What has changed on McLaren's position on this topic? I got busy for a few past weeks, and haven't seen any BIG announcements about such switch.

[Sakae]

Well, if the driver involved in the exchange is Vettel, Mercedes would keep an all German drivers line.

Why, is Rosberg leaving?

[King Six]

The problem is, FI is not paying their engine bill and Mercedes is threatening to cut them off.
I would think that takes precedence over trying to get Heidfeld or anyone else a ride.

That rumour was put to rest already, Norbert Haug already dismissed that.

Red Bull Racing are currently powered by Renault, however, the team's bosses have made remarks suggesting they may want to swap to Mercedes, who reportedly have the most powerful engine in the field.

Mercedes, though, already power their own F1 team, McLaren and Force India, prompting their bosses to insist that the German car manufacturer has enough customers on the books.

This led to rumours that Force India could be dropped by Mercedes in order to make space for the German company to supply Red Bull Racing.

However, Mercedes motorsport boss Norbert Haug has been quick to deny these claims.

"Mr Mallya (Force India's owner) is exemplary with the payment of his bills," Haug told Auto Motor und Sport. "We have no plans to change our customers."

http://www.planetf1....rop-Force-India

+ McLaren hold a veto. I don't think you'll see Red Bull-Mercedes until the McLaren-Mercdes partnership ends in 2015 or something. Although there might be a slim chance that McLaren will produce their own engine once the 2013 regulations come in, but I doubt it. Don't think they're ready to produce their own F1 engine, even if they made the engine for the MP4-12C.

Edited by King Six, 07 September 2010 - 19:46.

[PassWind]

Its ignorance that people think the MB engine would be heavy.

The current formula created much heavier engines. Toyota after the rule changes, had an engine way too light. It cost them money to re-design engine wall castings in order to put weight into something productive, rather than attaching ballast to the engine block. All the engines would be minimum weight and have the C of G at the limit allowed. Mercedes greater power is an entirely different issue to the engine weights which are a piece of cake for F1 quality engineering to achieve.

Damn you MP you have just thrown a bucket of water over my intent to ask a bunch of leading questions to reach the same logical conclusion.

As you know and have explained the engine rules that were put in place actually made most teams add weight to their packages (which can be 2Kg of ballast). 95Kg is quite a bit of weight for a 2.4l engine.

With the bore size, cylinder separation, material and COG rules there is not going to be to much variation between the power plants in structure, what will be different is with regards to the 19000rpm now 18000rpm limit you have a theoretical upper horsepower limit given the amount of energy you can produce from fuel flowed at up to 100bar and the amount of air you can get into it and out of it efficiently. None of the teams will be anywhere near this given the service life and material limitations.

This is what makes the Mercedes power plant attractive to RedBull, that they can make more power reliably given the parameters and still use aggressive aero packaging. Even when the engines are supposed to be roughly equalised, its clearly not the case.

[F.M.]

Webber: "Now that we have a set type of gear ratios, that's factoring into what top speeds we actually do."

[bond]

http://photos.gpupda...arge/161964.jpg

[One]

In way way could defenders of Red Bul assert that Red BUll did raced well at Monza?

For Vettel fans it was all right, but it seems to me that Red Bull has yet again missed their chance to hammer their WDC assault down on the rock.


In Singapore Red Bull can make mistakes in their driver management. Red Bull did sent Webber out on track in a terrible car at Monza, did they not? It will tension up, as fly away races you can do very little from the factory. Remember They stole wings from Webber's car.

[sosidge]

In way way could defenders of Red Bul assert that Red BUll did raced well at Monza?

For Vettel fans it was all right, but it seems to me that Red Bull has yet again missed their chance to hammer their WDC assault down on the rock.


In Singapore Red Bull can make mistakes in their driver management. Red Bull did sent Webber out on track in a terrible car at Monza, did they not? It will tension up, as fly away races you can do very little from the factory. Remember They stole wings from Webber's car.

What are you on about?

It was pretty clear the car did not have the pace of the McLarens and Ferraris this weekend, to get 4th and 6th from a poor first lap is a pretty solid result.

[Mandzipop]

In way way could defenders of Red Bul assert that Red BUll did raced well at Monza?

For Vettel fans it was all right, but it seems to me that Red Bull has yet again missed their chance to hammer their WDC assault down on the rock.


In Singapore Red Bull can make mistakes in their driver management. Red Bull did sent Webber out on track in a terrible car at Monza, did they not? It will tension up, as fly away races you can do very little from the factory. Remember They stole wings from Webber's car.

Maybe they were thinking about the WCC. Bringing Vettel in too early could have cost WCC points. Webber was stuck behind Hulkenberg and was relying too heavily on a penalty that did not emerge.

Apart from the start, both Vettel and Webber had stonking races. Webber for his overtakes, Vettel for managing those tyres for 52 laps.

[Seanspeed]

Maybe they were thinking about the WCC. Bringing Vettel in too early could have cost WCC points. Webber was stuck behind Hulkenberg and was relying too heavily on a penalty that did not emerge.

Apart from the start, both Vettel and Webber had stonking races. Webber for his overtakes, Vettel for managing those tyres for 52 laps.

[Alfisti]

I'm totally unconvinced they did not have the pace to be damn close anyway to the McLaren and Ferrari. Mark especially looked REALLY hooked up.

[GreenMachine]

Pretty good result for RBR, all things considered. Good strategy to keep Seb out and jump up the order, and full marks to Mark for his overtakes. But wtf is going on with the starts? Was there (another) launch problem, or was it just MW being a bit safe and not wanting a DNF (or both?). If the latter, he is signalling a vulnerability to those behind him on the grid.

Not sure that Mark should have stayed out until cars in front pitted, as they would have stayed out to cover him in all likelihood. Looks like the softs were too hard (again).

I notice an interesting photo on the ITV site (which I can't link) - there is an interesting contrast in front camber between the Merc and the RB: I don't think Webber is braking before MS, as he is holding MS out here as MS tries to get his place back, but I can't see that the RBs would be running that much more neg than the Merc, given it is control rubber..

[slideways]

There was nothing really wrong with either of their starts. Both got off the line a bit slower than McLaren/Ferrari, but that is normal this year. It was the first corner that lost them the positions (and then mark dipping a wheel a bit later down the track).

[Supersleeper]

In way way could defenders of Red Bul assert that Red BUll did raced well at Monza?

Red Bull left it's weakest track of the season leading both championships. It was only leading 1 when they turned up.
Yes - that's a good weekend.

[Seanspeed]

I'm totally unconvinced they did not have the pace to be damn close anyway to the McLaren and Ferrari. Mark especially looked REALLY hooked up.

It was pretty clear in qualifying(where they usually excel) that the cars weren't up to it.

The car isn't bad, but they weren't ever going to be competitive here with an engine down on power. Some more horsepower and I'm sure they'd have the extra tenths they'd have needed.

[Alfisti]

We've seen changes in qualy and race pace this year, quite a few times. I dunno, we rarely if ever saw them in clear air today, they would just LATCH onto whoever was th enect car in front within a lap or so and looked way, way faster than anyone around them.

[Seanspeed]

We've seen changes in qualy and race pace this year, quite a few times. I dunno, we rarely if ever saw them in clear air today, they would just LATCH onto whoever was th enect car in front within a lap or so and looked way, way faster than anyone around them.

Well they were racing a Williams, a Renault and a Mercedes. All of whom we KNOW are slower. So yea, they'll look quicker than them, obviously, but it was pretty clear they weren't up to the pace of the Ferrari and Mclaren. Just a couple/few tenths down, but thats all it takes sometimes. Had they got better starts and not had to fight their way to 4th and 6th, I'm pretty sure they'd have been slowly dropped by the leaders.

And yea, we've seen differences in quali pace compared to race pace, but in Red Bull's case, its mostly been the case that their race pace is worse than their qualifying pace(relative to Mclaren and Ferrari). So I'm not sure thats a very good point to bring up.

[Alfisti]

I dunno, just gut reaction i guess. We saw more of Mark and manhe could just STAND on the brakes and remain stable, just looked really hooked up.

[Melbourne Park]

And yea, we've seen differences in quali pace compared to race pace, but in Red Bull's case, its mostly been the case that their race pace is worse than their qualifying pace(relative to Mclaren and Ferrari). So I'm not sure thats a very good point to bring up.

I think it depends on the track. Canada and Turkey they lacked race pace, but in fact in Turkey they were !/2 when they crashed each other out. And Hamilton's McLaren was way down on fuel, yet he was behind. RBR have said all year, that Monza was the worst circuit for them. And yet they gained position at Monza. Their speed through the tight bits is still great. I guess Singapore will reveal a lot. I wonder if Webber will use his engine for its third time, and use a Fresh one for Suzuka. I reckon Susuka would benefit a fresh engine more than Singapore.

[Classic Ferrari]

How do you guys think RedBull are shaping up for Singapore? in comparison to the others.

[Jim Warbic]

How do you guys think RedBull are shaping up for Singapore? in comparison to the others.

It is too hard to gauge to be honest. The FIA have made Red Bull modify their cars over Spa and Monza which are two of their bogey tracks so Singapore is the great unknown. I expect them to be up there but if they don't improve their starts getting pole might mean that they are mugged anyway. Lets be honest Red Bull have not been great starters, but perhaps the modifications that had to be made for their car have made their starts worse in some way?

[mark f1]

From a champioship position, I think RBR should be very happy with the weekend. Prior to the weekend, everyone would have expected that Lewis would have quite a bit more of a lead, probably winning with the RBR's down around 4th - 6th. Whilst the result has brought Alonso and Button much closer to the points lead, to me that is a much better result that Lewis winning and having him sitting 10-20 points clear of Mark. I was hoping that Jenson would win, as that would have been better than Alonso winning for RBR.

Will be interesting to see if McLaren are weak at Singapore after how they went in Hungary where they were of the pace. I expect RBR to be right back on top in Singapore.

[Philip Lee KK]

I was hoping that Jenson would win, as that would have been better than Alonso winning for RBR.

Will be interesting to see if McLaren are weak at Singapore after how they went in Hungary where they were of the pace. I expect RBR to be right back on top in Singapore.

Alonso winning is better for RBR than Jenson becos firstly Alonso was further away in points and also RBR is still leading the WCC. but on the flip side, Alonso has full support from the team while Jenson doesn't...

[mark f1]

Don't agree. Definitely better for RBR that Jenson had won. Realistically, Lewis is McLaren's best chance at the title and when McLaren has a strong weekend, he will be the one probably winning. Whereas, when Ferrari are strong, we know that Ferrari is behind Alonso.

[One]

Don't agree. Definitely better for RBR that Jenson had won. Realistically, Lewis is McLaren's best chance at the title and when McLaren has a strong weekend, he will be the one probably winning. Whereas, when Ferrari are strong, we know that Ferrari is behind Alonso.

Mark has to do with that Terrible start for two races, or more, while his title chance is on the tight rope. In what way could Red Bull leave the electric fault as it is?

Besides How strange that all of us, including us, tend to believe that Red Bull got One Weak spot that is Monza? With the knowledge and skill of Newey it should have been possible that the car runs at mush higher speed? It may well be completely irrelevant but in 2008 Vettel won there in his STR!

The whole team was busy fixing the front wing that flexes well and pass the FIA test. It should have required full energy of the team.

[goingthedistance]

There was nothing really wrong with either of their starts. Both got off the line a bit slower than McLaren/Ferrari, but that is normal this year. It was the first corner that lost them the positions (and then mark dipping a wheel a bit later down the track).

Watching the replay (the helicopter shot) it would seem that both had okay initial getaways, but they were very, very sluggish down the straight into the first corner.

[PassWind]

Mark has to do with that Terrible start for two races, or more, while his title chance is on the tight rope. In what way could Red Bull leave the electric fault as it is?

Besides How strange that all of us, including us, tend to believe that Red Bull got One Weak spot that is Monza? With the knowledge and skill of Newey it should have been possible that the car runs at mush higher speed? It may well be completely irrelevant but in 2008 Vettel won there in his STR!

The whole team was busy fixing the front wing that flexes well and pass the FIA test. It should have required full energy of the team.

Yes when Newey pulled down the Renault engine and rebuilt it to the same specs as the Ferrari engine that Torro Rosso were running in 2008 he stopped, pondered, and realized he wasn't a mechanic and he had no idea what he was doing despite his knowledge and skill. I have fortunately realized just how little some people know about how about F1, do you even know what the test is?

Edited by PassWind, 13 September 2010 - 09:49.

[One]

Yes when Newey pulled down the Renault engine and rebuilt it to the same specs as the Ferrari engine that Torro Rosso were running in 2008 he stopped, pondered, and realized he wasn't a mechanic and he had no idea what he was doing despite his knowledge and skill. I have fortunately realized just how little some people know about how about F1, do you even know what the test is?

I donno which "you" you are pointing at, but I assume that it is me. Could you point out that which part of my post suggested that I know nothing about test? Please read the house rule also, I will do that once more.

[Peppe]

I think RBR:s performance last year at Monza is more relevant than what Vettel did in his STR in wet weather in 2008.

[Melbourne Park]

Mark has to do with that Terrible start for two races, or more, while his title chance is on the tight rope. In what way could Red Bull leave the electric fault as it is?

Besides How strange that all of us, including us, tend to believe that Red Bull got One Weak spot that is Monza? With the knowledge and skill of Newey it should have been possible that the car runs at mush higher speed? It may well be completely irrelevant but in 2008 Vettel won there in his STR!

The whole team was busy fixing the front wing that flexes well and pass the FIA test. It should have required full energy of the team.

Actually MW had the second highest top speed, and the second fastest lap. And also had some very fast sector times.

I really don't understand the starting issues ... I cannot do it at the moment, but by looking at the various starts, then perhaps common traits might be worked out. it would be sad for the team to loose both championships, because they have not worked out starting. They have started well before though. Perhaps there is a correlation between high speed circuits, and poor starts for RBR? Both Spa and Monza are such circuits, and the RBRs have started poorly in both. Although in Spa, Webber knew he had a problem before the start, but the team's advice made his start even worse. Who knows???

About Singapore, the major players should be McLaren, RBR, Ferrari and logically Renault. All the changes for Monza won't count, as it is a unique circuit, and one that is the highest full power circuit, at 70%. The upgrades that come to Singapore are the ones that matter, and none of the big teams are telling us about them, although Renault said they'd be introducing changes and expected themselves to be right up there. RBR have said they have a few changes (Newey said so) but Newey also said that the formula is mature now, and hence changes did not make the big differences that they did last year. McLaren have said they'll be bringing changes to every race, and hence those changes would more more often than RBR's, due to McLaren's greater resources.

RBR though have had a history of bringing out changes that work immediately well, and the next race, work super well. The other teams haven't been like that, except perhaps Renault. That RBR used aero paint on both cars, was very curious to me. I wondered whether they were testing for Monza, or was it to do with Singapore? I have know way of knowing ... if it was for Singapore though, then that would indicate to me, that Newey might have another good idea. He's done that before, hasn't he ...

So I think we will not know, until Saturday week, around about Q3! I don't have enough real information to know anything. Except for the engine status, which favour Hamilton most now, with Webber and Button even, Vettel behind and Alonso is facing a penalty before the season ends.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 13 September 2010 - 11:24.