55 replies to this topic

[1fastSS]

IMO there is a possible (probable) Cosworth engine advantage for 2010, given that they have the opportunity to re-enter F1, design their engine, after knowing the rules on "no refiling" and after the others are limited by the engine freeze? Who is going to control this?

This is IMO yet another move to disadvantage the manufacturers left in the sport.

Why couldn't teams like Ferrari and Renault start separate companies,
(example Ferrari "covallino engines" and use that company as a 3rd party supplier.

If Cosworth can enter F1 as a supplier, why couldn't or can't a factory outift. IMO is is completely unfair to introduce an engine supplier, especial given the engine freeze and significant rule changes.

FIA BERNIE

[Captain Tightpants]

IMO there is a possible (probable) Cosworth engine advantage for 2010, given that they have the opportunity to re-enter F1, design their engine, after knowing the rules on "no refiling" and after the others are limited by the engine freeze? Who is going to control this?

The other engines are not limited by the freeze - it has been unfrozen to allow the teams to equilise their engines.

[1fastSS]

The other engines are not limited by the freeze - it has been unfrozen to allow the teams to equilise their engines.

Was there not only a "limited" changes that could be done to the engines where as Cosworth are starting from scratch? Or can the teams introduce entirely new blocks? In that case the topic is moot.

[maccaFTW]

I'm really afraid that the Cosworth engine is going to come out with a massive advantage. We all know Max's wet dream is to drive all the manufacturers out of F1 and to have everyone run the same Spec engine, regardless of how stupid it would be for the premiere racing series in the world to run just one engine. He pushed the new teams to use Cosworth engines. One of his "ally" teams, Williams, has now gone to Cosworth power. He's got a massive stake in the success of the engine, and I'm sure he's done everything he can to help Cosworth put together a top piece in order to further his agenda.

[1fastSS]

I'm really afraid that the Cosworth engine is going to come out with a massive advantage. We all know Max's wet dream is to drive all the manufacturers out of F1 and to have everyone run the same Spec engine, regardless of how stupid it would be for the premiere racing series in the world to run just one engine. He pushed the new teams to use Cosworth engines. One of his "ally" teams, Williams, has now gone to Cosworth power. He's got a massive stake in the success of the engine, and I'm sure he's done everything he can to help Cosworth put together a top piece in order to further his agenda.

That's exactly what I had in mind. We have already seen political decisions F1, (DDD) being the perfect example that flipped the field to suddenly have those at the bottom winning races from those at the top. Why couldn't Cosworth be destined to become the engine of choice, slowing pushing the larger teams further still?

Williams has been quotes as saying that "The manufacturer dominance in F1 is over" etc etc. I see no reason not to believe that this is yet another move towards a spec series. The FIA has just come back from a seminar about "overtaking in motorosport" why couldn't "SPEC" be the topic of discussion and agenda?

[stevewf1]

I'm sure the FIA's Engine Equalization Committee (EEC) will step in and solve this problem...

[1fastSS]

I'm sure the FIA's Engine Equalization Committee (EEC) will step in and solve this problem...

They very well may, but who is to say their "solution" will not advantage those that run Cosworth in a move to promote a spec engine?

[FPV GTHO]

Williams and the other new teams would need alot more than a Cosworth advantage to get on top for next year. For now the rumoured power advantage of the Cosworth will probably be offset by either worse fuel consumption or reliability in comparison to the Mercedes engine. So i'm not particularly worried about the engines for next year.

[Simon Says]

The V8 by Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault have alot of development time and testing over many seasons. I'm actually worried if they will be deliver an engine that's anywhere near as good as the others and also in terms of reliability.

[Captain Tightpants]

Was there not only a "limited" changes that could be done to the engines where as Cosworth are starting from scratch? Or can the teams introduce entirely new blocks? In that case the topic is moot.

Yes, they are using the Renault as a benchmark. However, you can't expect Cosworth to simply give the teams whatever they have simply because they are a new supplier. They don't have an engine they could provide otherwise. So they have to build an engine using the Renault as a benchmark because otherwise, they have nothing.

[raiseyourfistfor]

Yeah, its very likely that the FIA will on purpose make the Cosworth a better engine than the rest.

[pgj]

Is the unfreezing a total release or do the changes still have to be based on homogolated engines? An extreme example of what I am getting at is, could a brand new engine be submitted from a new block upwards?

[1fastSS]

Is the unfreezing a total release or do the changes still have to be based on homogolated engines? An extreme example of what I am getting at is, could a brand new engine be submitted from a new block upwards?

That, is exactly what I'm wondering as well.

There is this bit of info.

According to Michael Schmidt of Auto Motor und Sport, FIA and FOTA agreed about performance control of the 2010 engines during the Abu Dhabi weekend. All relevant engine parameters are supposed to be equalised to within 2%. He mentioned explicitly power and fuel consumption.

Schmidt is extremely well connected with manufacturers and the FIA. He has covered 400 F1 GPs for the German press. Considering his information I do not think that we have a problem in the making. Apparently one of the first moves by Jean Todt was the engine question and it looks like he got that covered.

Not that a number lower than 2% is practical, but 2% is nearly 15hp on a 750hp engine. and I'm really interested, just how that 2% is going to be figured in terms of "fuel consumption".

A team that's allowed changes has to be withing 2% of what? The top engine or the lowest?

If true, F1 is just one step away from a pure spec-series and I seriously wonder why any manufacturer be it Ferrari, Renault or anybody would bother when you can't make much of a performance difference anyway, neither power- nor efficiency-wise.

A tactic that could be used by teams is to purposefully de-tune their engine to gain in efficiency, would the FIA then let them make changes to increase output?

[DFV]

Shouldn't this be in the Cosworth engine thread?

This is really quite fascinating!

Not so long ago everyone was talking about how bad the Cosworth engine was going to be. 20 kg overweight and 3 seconds a lap slower. I, and others, argued that it would not be overweight and no way 3 seconds slower. The CA V8 was aguably the best engine in 2006 and would be a very good base for Cosworth to start from. They have also hired 4 ex. Merc (which was at Cosworth before that) engineers and are a respected engine manufacturer. They might struggle in some areas and maybe not produce the most powerful, most reliable and most fuel efficient engine. That was the arguments some of us tried to put forward. But quite a few was still adamant that the engine would be a dog....

Now that there are coming reports that indicates that the engine will be fairly good, there is immediately talk of a plot from the FIA

I actually asked the question some time ago on the Cosworth engine thread. Will the view on the Cosworth engine change from being perceived as a dog to it being the FIA engine and that there is a plot with the FIA Now we even have a separate thread about it...

If it was such a big advantage, then surely Red Bull would have had no problem in deciding to choose that over their favoured Merc option or the Renault.

And what would the comments have been if we didn't have the Cosworth engine for next season? Who would provide engines to the 5 teams that are going with Cosworth engines next season?

We have lost 3 manufacturers over the last 12 months and might loose another one. Recent events show that F1 NEED a new, independent engine supplier or we risk not having enough affordable engines available for the teams. If F1 only had Merc and Ferrari to supply engines, do we believe that they would sell them cheap. They would have a very strong leverage towards FIA. If we can't supply engines at the price WE want, then we wont supply engines!

Ferrari have traditionally not supplied more than one (inferior) team.
Mercedes is being vetoed by McLaren over further engine supplies.
Renault has doubts cast over it's future.

The sporting code would have to be changed as well (which obviously could be done) as it today limits manufacturers to supplying only two teams each.

Edited by DFV, 13 November 2009 - 09:47.

[Lord Snooty]

Shouldn't this be in the Cosworth engine thread?

This is really quite fascinating!

Not so long ago everyone was talking about how bad the Cosworth engine was going to be. 20 kg overweight and 3 seconds a lap slower.....

Excellent post.

My first thoughts on seeing this thread was "blatant troll; why only a few days ago people were dismissing the Cosworth as useless and now..."

But you put it far better than I ever could.

[JPW]

Now that there are coming reports that indicates that the engine will be fairly good, there is immediately talk of a plot from the FIA

And you are surprised about that?

Come on there is a certain group of people on this board that blame FIA or Bernie for everything they percieve as wrong in their world.
So be prepared that if the Cosworth engine sucks the FIA detractors will say "Damn FIA running out the manufacturers, now we're stuck with this pos engine" or if it indeed proves to be a great engine the same detractors will put on their tinfoil hats and blame FIA because it's all a conspiracy.

It's all very predictable and funny imo.
Anyway let's hope Cosworth produces a great engine for 2010 which helps the new teams to keep in touch with the rest of the grid and propels Williams to the WCC.

[Mauseri]

I'm excepting the Cosworth to be unreliable and/or underpowered. Inferior in a way or another.

[pgj]

I'm excepting the Cosworth to be unreliable and/or underpowered. Inferior in a way or another.

...in for a shock then! lol!

[DFV]

And you are surprised about that?

Come on there is a certain group of people on this board that blame FIA or Bernie for everything they percieve as wrong in their world.
So be prepared that if the Cosworth engine sucks the FIA detractors will say "Damn FIA running out the manufacturers, now we're stuck with this pos engine" or if it indeed proves to be a great engine the same detractors will put on their tinfoil hats and blame FIA because it's all a conspiracy.

It's all very predictable and funny imo.
Anyway let's hope Cosworth produces a great engine for 2010 which helps the new teams to keep in touch with the rest of the grid and propels Williams to the WCC.

Good post

[plastik2k9]

Anyway let's hope Cosworth produces a great engine for 2010 which helps the new teams to keep in touch with the rest of the grid and propels Williams to the WCC.

And Barrichello the WDC? I'll be waiting for the "Is Rubens a worthy champion?" topic, when people start saying that he won because of the engine.

[1fastSS]

Now that the judges have judged, labeled people troll, praised each other and figured out where this thread belongs and or doesn't can we get back on topic?

[Bishy]

Yeah, its very likely that the FIA will on purpose make the Cosworth a better engine than the rest.

My view too, that wouldn't surprise me in the slightest...

[Clatter]

The other engines are not limited by the freeze - it has been unfrozen to allow the teams to equilise their engines.

No there hasn't. The FIA said that if the teams want to equalise, then the more powerful engines (if they really are) would have to be detuned. This would be a voluntary move and not a rule.

[Ruud de la Rosa]

Now that the judges have judged, labeled people troll, praised each other and figured out where this thread belongs and or doesn't can we get back on topic?

read the other tread about cosworth. a new manufacturer has to get his engine approved according to the FIA rules:

An engine delivered to the FIA after 31 March 2008, or modified and re-delivered to the FIA after 31
March 2008, which the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all
other suppliers of engines for the Championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete
with other homologated engines.

furthermore if the Cosworth would be that much better, Red Bull wouldn't be hesitating whether to stick to Renault

[Clatter]

furthermore if the Cosworth would be that much better, Red Bull wouldn't be hesitating whether to stick to Renault

They would because the Cosworth performance is still unknown. Better the devil you know.

[Tenmantaylor]

Good post

+1

I hope the engines are level overall but have at least some defining characteristics to keep some interest. Maybe 1 engine is better for a lap and the other is more efficient for the race. Dont mind either way! Would love to see Cossie going well again.

[Ruud de la Rosa]

They would because the Cosworth performance is still unknown. Better the devil you know.

to us it is unknown, the teams received indicative numbers. Also I forgot to mention that the Cosworth isn't designed from a clean sheet, it is an evolution of the 2006 version. I fail to see why this engine would have an unfair advantage.

[Clatter]

to us it is unknown, the teams received indicative numbers. Also I forgot to mention that the Cosworth isn't designed from a clean sheet, it is an evolution of the 2006 version. I fail to see why this engine would have an unfair advantage.

It's still an unknown until it's actually fitted into the back of a car and hits the track. I agree though, I don't think they have an unfair advantage, it's just one of the things that many of us predicted when the engine freeze was first proposed.

[DFV]

I'm pretty sure that if your conspiracy theories is correct then we will soon have Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault complaining of unfair treatment and that Cosworth have been given an unfair advantage.

It has been silent so far.

Maybe because it is within the rules??? If someone wants to come in with a new engine. Should they not be allowed to develop it? How should they make a new engine without being allowed development? Just doing the design on the computers and then start manufacturing the engine without being allowed to make modifications if running it on the dyno shows that there is a problem in one or more areas?

And besides the way it is being done is according to the rules, which all the teams have agreed to, so any new engine supplier would have the same date for final homolgation.

The other engines have had 2007, 2008 and 2009 to gain experience with their engines and make changes (yes they have made slight changes that has had to be presented to the FIA and then accepted or dismissed). If anything, it's Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault that have an advantage.

[egg1980]

I'm pretty sure that if your conspiracy theories is correct then we will soon have Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault complaining of unfair treatment and that Cosworth have been given an unfair advantage.

It has been silent so far.

Maybe because it is within the rules??? If someone wants to come in with a new engine. Should they not be allowed to develop it? How should they make a new engine without being allowed development? Just doing the design on the computers and then start manufacturing the engine without being allowed to make modifications if running it on the dyno shows that there is a problem in one or more areas?

And besides the way it is being done is according to the rules, which all the teams have agreed to, so any new engine supplier would have the same date for final homolgation.

The other engines have had 2007, 2008 and 2009 to gain experience with their engines and make changes (yes they have made slight changes that has had to be presented to the FIA and then accepted or dismissed). If anything, it's Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault that have an advantage.

I was looking forward to the voice of reason wading into this one

[pgj]

read the other tread about cosworth. a new manufacturer has to get his engine approved according to the FIA rules:


furthermore if the Cosworth would be that much better, Red Bull wouldn't be hesitating whether to stick to Renault

The Cosworth engine was homogolated in 2077 along with all the other engines.

[pgj]

I'm excepting the Cosworth to be unreliable and/or underpowered. Inferior in a way or another.

Good on you!

Freudian slip?

[Risil]

If it wasn't for Cosworth, there wouldn't be an F1 in 2010. The manufacturers, with a complicit FIA, conspired to drive the unbranded engine shops from competition, and now they've mostly pulled out, they've left the FIA to figure out how to track back.

[DFV]

The Cosworth engine was homogolated in 2077 along with all the other engines.

2007, not 2077 I hope...

I might be wrong here, but my understanding was that Cosworth had their final 2006 version homologated for 2007 (at the same time as the rest of the engine suppliers). I didn't understand that they provided a engine for homologation to the FIA in 2007. Rather that the CA was homologated in 2006 for racing in 2007 should someone want to sign a deal with Cosworth.

Edited by DFV, 13 November 2009 - 13:47.

[V8 Fireworks]

The Cosworth engine was homogolated in 2077 along with all the other engines.

These warp drive F1 engines that run on moss sure are grand. People are getting impatient at the persistent title winning of Hamilton Jr Jr.... too good that chap!

[egg1980]

The Cosworth engine was homogolated in 2077 along with all the other engines.

Don't go thinking that all the other engines haven't changed since 2000 and errr 7 and besides, the Cosworth unit hasn't been used since 2006!

Edited by egg1980, 13 November 2009 - 13:49.

[EthanM]

engine freeze is a joke, look at how different Merc vc Ferrari were in 2009 and 2008. They all develop the freeze effectively just slows development down.

And no I don't think Cosworth with 0 race data for 3 years will automatically build an unfair advantage engine on simulation alone.

[pgj]

Don't go thinking that all the other engines haven't changed since 2000 and errr 7 and besides, the Cosworth unit hasn't been used since 2006!

I think no such thing.

I was answering the point that had been made earlier that a new engine had been submitted for homogolation. Cosworth homogolated their engine in 2007 therefore the new engine cannot be Cosworth's.

[Captain Tightpants]

engine freeze is a joke, look at how different Merc vc Ferrari were in 2009 and 2008. They all develop the freeze effectively just slows development down.

The engine freeze has less to do with slowing them down and more to do with stopping them from going full bananas with it. The FIA has admitted that some of the finer parts of the engines are so difficult to police that it's pretty much impossible to check up on the teams. But that doesn't mean they're going to give the engineers a free ticket because if you let them do as they please, they will. The sport will become less competitive as the manufacturers invest more and more into engine development and everything will degenerate into the arms race that dominated the sport for a decade where the only way to be competitive is to have a budget greater than the GDP of a small African nation. An engine freeze halts that in its tracks.

[pgj]

2007, not 2077 I hope...

I might be wrong here, but my understanding was that Cosworth had their final 2006 version homologated for 2007 (at the same time as the rest of the engine suppliers). I didn't understand that they provided a engine for homologation to the FIA in 2007. Rather that the CA was homologated in 2006 for racing in 2007 should someone want to sign a deal with Cosworth.

You may be right. I understood that modifications to the 2006 unit were homogolated in 2007. This is all that I can find about it. READ

[Claudius]

Now that the judges have judged, labeled people troll, praised each other and figured out where this thread belongs and or doesn't can we get back on topic?

[ForMules]

I'm excepting the Cosworth to be unreliable and/or underpowered. Inferior in a way or another.

what is Cosworth? never saw a car drove by any cosworth engine !

the fact is, cheap teams buys it, this is good, english might learn how to make an engine very soon!

[Risil]

Also, is the poll's wording knowingly lifted from the words of the 1972 Indy 500 winner, Mark Donohue?

Whether it is or isn't, surely the poll begs the question, Isn't that the point?

Edited by Risil, 13 November 2009 - 14:41.

[DFV]

what is Cosworth? never saw a car drove by any cosworth engine !

the fact is, cheap teams buys it, this is good, english might learn how to make an engine very soon!

You really are a French patriot aren't you

Cars with Cosworth engines: Mercedes 190 E 2,3-16, Ford Sierra and Escort Cosworth, Opel Kadett GSI, Opel Ascona/Manta 400, Opel Vectra and Calibra Turbo, Audi RS6, Chevrolet Vega Cosworth, Ford RS200, Ford Escorts with BDA engine, Aston Martin 6.0l V12 and some others as well.

The Mercedes F1 engines are also built in England. They had no failures in 2009 (in 3 teams). Remind me again how the French Renault engines did...

[pgj]

@DFV

Don't rise to the bait. With any luck the engine will do the talking for us.

[DFV]

@DFV

Don't rise to the bait. With any luck the engine will do the talking for us.

Reminder to self: Keep calm, keep calm...

[DOF_power]

I personally never cared for Cosworth, I cared about the Ford side.

If a manufacturer favors some team(s) with free engines, money, technical support like it used to be, I'm OK, but a spec engine/series, no thank you.

[MikeTekRacing]

An engine freeze halts that in its tracks.

and halts any difference anybody can bring and chases engine builders away..
it also makes makes passing people very difficult, it also leads to "equalizing" and other concepts that should never be in f1

[PassWind]

And you are surprised about that?

Come on there is a certain group of people on this board that blame FIA or Bernie for everything they percieve as wrong in their world.
So be prepared that if the Cosworth engine sucks the FIA detractors will say "Damn FIA running out the manufacturers, now we're stuck with this pos engine" or if it indeed proves to be a great engine the same detractors will put on their tinfoil hats and blame FIA because it's all a conspiracy.

It's all very predictable and funny imo.
Anyway let's hope Cosworth produces a great engine for 2010 which helps the new teams to keep in touch with the rest of the grid and propels Williams to the WCC.

I am glad I am not the only one who recognizes the special people who can't think for themselves. Like its some sort of Austin Powers movie or some ****.

[Clatter]

I think no such thing.

I was answering the point that had been made earlier that a new engine had been submitted for homogolation. Cosworth homogolated their engine in 2007 therefore the new engine cannot be Cosworth's.

Cosworth submitted AN engine for homologation. That engine was not used by anyone and Cosworth ceased being a supplier. This effectivly makes them a new supplier and allows them to submit a brand new engine for homologation.