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Mercedes GP - the 2010 Silver Arrows (Merged)


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#1 Matt Somers

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:45

Well seeing as the McLaren and Ferrari boys have started their respective threads about next years cars I thought i'd start the BGP002's.

Obviously the start of the BGP001's thread was mainly covering if Brawn were going to make it to the grid followed by a bunch of doubters over it's pace shown in th Barcelona tests. Following on from that we saw some more constructive posts about the actual design of the car and also how it differed from some of it's rivals.

Ross has already been quoted as saying that after the first plethora of wins and the results of the DDD case it was only a matter of time before the other teams caught up. Reasoning for this was the Mercedes engine being forced into a space that previously occupied a Honda engine. I have read that there was upto 6 inches taken out of the rear of the chassis to fit the Merc unit and obviously it came with other compromises such as the oil feed issue that was found early on for the mutant Honda designed gearbox. Ross has said that there were 2 options after the DDD appeal and that was the continuation of the BGP001 with the same tub/chassis or a total rebuild. Trouble here is that is would have been very costly and taken 6+ weeks to do so they decided to plough on with the BGP001 and progress with upgrades.
We all know that the upgrades that came about for Silverstone were supposed to integrate the Merc package better but they had the detrimental effect of giving poor tyre performance. These suspension upgrades to give more travel and adjustment adversley effected the car.

We all know that although the other teams would like everyone to believe it was the DDD that were the BGP001's biggest performance enhancer it was not only this but the entire package.

Looking to 2010 and although the BGP001 was a great car it can be clearly seen that by mid way through the season it was like a shopping trolley with a wonky wheel in comparison to the RB5 and the MP4-24. So I firmly believe that the BGP002 will almost certainly look somewhat different to the 001. Ross commented that COG was less than ideal with how the Merc engine had been slotted in and so this will obviously be amended and i'm sure most teams will be using RBR's get around for the front nose cone design. The most important factor as always when designing these cars is realising the impact of the aero wake caused by the wheels/tyres and with a narrowerer front wheel being adopted for 2010 that may well again upset the balance.

I feel confident that the BGP002 will be a force to be reckoned with however the mistakes that Ferrari and McLaren made with their 09 designs will be learnt from and i'm sure both will have a much stronger year in 2010.

One thing that should also be mentioned about the BGP001 is it's strength as Jenson drove the same chassis from Melbourne to Abu Dhabi I believe, something that only Fernando Alonso's R26 did in 2006.

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#2 howardt

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 10:03

I'm inclined to diagree. Based on not much more than a hunch, and the Brawn 'backwards development' during 09 that you mention, and Honda's ongoing inability to fix problems over the course of several years, I predict that the BGP002 will be slower than Mclaren, Red Bull and perhaps A.N.Other. Bulletproof, but not a race-winner.

#3 Burai

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 10:22

The backward development was more a case of getting things slightly wrong mid-season and the problems of having a chassis with the back cut off to accept an engine it was never designed for.

But by the end they were certainly looking very strong again. Not race-winning pace as such, but then they didn't really need it with Jenson's lead.

Pretty much every shortcoming the team has had this year can be explained by the rather rapid nature of how this season came together. This winter they'll be able to worry about speed rather than existence which will help massively.

I don't see the massive drop-off coming that everyone else is predicting (or, it would seem, hoping for). I don't see them dominating like they did this year because Ferrari and McLaren have had no choice but to raise their game, but I don't see Brawn dropping off the radar. There's nothing institutionally broken at the team that could realistically cause a slump. Ross knows how to run a team and the fact that they did so well in spite of everything that was thrown at them only speaks volumes of their strength.

#4 Ringo

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 10:36

Don't forget guys, the BGP001 was the single most expensive Grand Prix car ever built, with a total of five years ploughed into it by three different companies in four different factories (2 years @ Honda - Brackley and Tochigi, 18 months @ Super Aguri, and over a year @ Dome).

It had close to a billion Euros spent on it.

Brawn does not have the resources to match that, but it does have some great designers and clearly a good team behind it. One only hopes that the commercial department pulls its finger out and doesn't leave the team without the money to develop the car, as it did at Honda and as it also did this season.



#5 Matt Somers

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 10:59

As Ringo quite rightly points out don't forget the development and money that went into the BGP001 but also realise the potential for progressive development for 2010. The tie in with Mercedes could prove to be a very shrewd move as it should not only yeild some financial backing but possibly further technical help too. The installation of Rosberg with the Brawn team will simply be to have Brawn showing the crossover partnership of British/German companies and I'm sure the German marque will be picking most if not all of Rosberg's price tag. This leaves Jenson and Brawn in bad predicament as we already know Rosberg was picking up 9.5 Million with Williams and Jense raced for 5 Million last year. So what salary will Rosberg achieve? and what effect is this having on the negotiations of Brawn/Jenson. Surely as the world champion Jenson should be able to achieve a salary greater than a driver that has proven nothing? (Just my thoughts)

#6 Burai

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 11:22

Surely as the world champion Jenson should be able to achieve a salary greater than a driver that has proven nothing? (Just my thoughts)


Damon Hill and Nigel Mansell both thought the same thing when they left Williams for Arrows and McLaren respectively.

In hindsight, they probably wish they hadn't.

#7 GIBF1

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 11:40

Brawn sign 3 year partnership deal with MIG Investments



#8 MaxFan1

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 11:48

With McLaren and Ferrari getting rid of KERS, Brawn will be at the front again.

#9 alexbiker

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 11:58

The GP001 was a complete botch from the cockpit backwards. They adapted a tub but basically hacking it to pieces - the crank centre on the Mercedes was lower, the pickup points to the tub were completely different, the gearbox was different, and the gearbox and the engine are the sole attachments for the rear suspension, diffuser, wing and electronics.

They'll gain huge time by just redesigning the tub to be perfect for the engine, and then don't forget who's in charge. Benneton did not have the biggest budget on the grid, and they won two championships under Ross Brawn - that was undoubtedly a fast, fast car. There's no definites, but Brawn stand a great chance of being there or therabouts next season.

#10 Psymon

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 11:59

I do think that next year's Brawn should be at the pointy end of the grid, whether it will be good enough to challenge for wins or the championship only time will tell.

Yes the BGP001 had a long development time and a large amount of money spent on it... but don't forget it wasn't as if the Honda from the year before was a good car - anything but! I know of course there was the large change in regulations which will make the form of the previous year less relevant, but the fact that this years car is the successor to a really bad car can't have helped things.

With the 2010 car they have a good starting point, and they haven't been concentrating on the BGP001 development at the expense of the 002, as Ross Brawn has apparently said, they have been crash-testing parts for the 002 for the last 3/4 months - and design would have had to be going for longer than that!

It would be interesting to know how much of a handicap lap-time wise the late change engine switch to Mercedes and the necessary bodge-fit was - both from the higher centre of gravity, and the car being relatively heavy - with less option for moving ballast around to help balance the car. With the closeness of the field this year even a tenth difference could have made their performance "drop-off" seem less severe.

My feeling is that with a properly integrated engine, a lack of uncertainty over the winter months for the team's employees, and a good base to have started from then the BGP002 will definitely be a good car, but, as I have said, only time will tell if it will be good enough!

#11 Archybald

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 12:13

i am honestly itching for next season to come around. With the BGP002 (or heck maybe the Merc001 depending how it turns out lol) i cant wait to see how having a merc gearbox with a merc engine that actually fits will work with the car not to mention whether the smaller wheels at the front will help or hinder the design. Also where exactly will the bigger tank go. If im not mistaken it was mentioned a few times in interviews that the brawn car apparently has a good sized fuel tank this year anyway would that make it easier to scale up without effecting performance?

Also ive noticed that both button and rosberg appear (to me atleast) to have very smooth driving styles, how will having 2 drivers of the same "school of driving" pan out in helping with setup of the new car? not to mention with Tyre wear and any other issues that may arise next year!

BAH will someone just make next season happen already? lol

Edited by Archybald, 06 November 2009 - 12:14.


#12 Atreiu

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 12:42

The doubt I have in my mind lays in the fact Honda was never able to maitain any momentum from one season to another, and these are basically those same Honda guys, but building a car around a Mercedes engine.

#13 One

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 12:57

I saw budget plan figures at the beginning of this season on how Brawn make good use of the 100 million USD that they got from honda. After this, Virgin came along and paid 250.000 per race, (4mil USD) and MIG indeed, Canon, telecom perhaps netting another 4 million.

Pepsi, Emilaets and all were rumored, yet I see no sign of new sponsors on the car. So what are they going to do with it? Merc buyout? is this true? Merc has just said recently that they will be sticking o Mclaren for years to come!

Every single stories around Brawn does not convince me that they can continue to the end of the year like they did this year!!! Who said to finish first you have to finish first... Ron Dennis, Yes Ross, Yes Nick.... ???

#14 mstar

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 13:20

i don't think the BGP002 will be a bad car i just fear teams like mclaren/ferrari and redbull will just out develop brawn. the facts are they have more resources its that simple. The 2nd half of the season brawn seem to be going backwards as they struggled to bring performance parts which redbull/mclaren prodeced for fun. e.g redbull somehow were slower then brawn in slow corners and some how ended up faster over the season. This shows to me that if brawn had the resources they would keep developing and keep their noses in front -but they didn't.

maybe i am wrong but the odds and evidence shows BGP002 will not be as good as mclaren/ferrari/redbull

#15 Sausage

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 13:26

Brawn was already outdeveloped this year by the teams that tried, the other teams just stopped developement to focus on next year. Next year won't be very good for them unless some new loophole is found.

#16 David1976

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 13:27

maybe i am wrong but the odds and evidence shows BGP002 will not be as good as mclaren/ferrari/redbull


I dont think you are wrong. I would be staggered if the Brawn is better than the 3rd best car on the grid.

#17 Archybald

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 13:35

i don't think the BGP002 will be a bad car i just fear teams like mclaren/ferrari and redbull will just out develop brawn. the facts are they have more resources its that simple. The 2nd half of the season brawn seem to be going backwards as they struggled to bring performance parts which redbull/mclaren prodeced for fun. e.g redbull somehow were slower then brawn in slow corners and some how ended up faster over the season. This shows to me that if brawn had the resources they would keep developing and keep their noses in front -but they didn't.

maybe i am wrong but the odds and evidence shows BGP002 will not be as good as mclaren/ferrari/redbull


I do agree (ish) with alot of what you say especially with Red Bull/McLaren/ferarri's development. However i cant help but wonder how the "bodge job" possibly hampered any in season development.

However to me it seemed like those teams were focused alot on development throughout the year where as brawn didn't seem to put as much emphasis on development (though thats just speculation i dont have much evidince im just going by what it seemed like to me). Which makes me wonder did brawn GP take their early wins and decide to try to pre-empt next season by starting the 2010 car early knowing that they were "possibly" limited in what they could improve on with said chassi and try to coast the 09 season win with their huge margin?

#18 Timstr11

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 13:35

With the BGP002 (or heck maybe the Merc001 depending how it turns out lol) i cant wait to see how having a merc gearbox with a merc engine that actually fits will work with the car

Brawn have their own gearbox.

#19 Timstr11

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 13:40

Pepsi, Emilaets and all were rumored, yet I see no sign of new sponsors on the car. So what are they going to do with it? Merc buyout? is this true? Merc has just said recently that they will be sticking o Mclaren for years to come!

Patience!

As Brawn said yesterday:
"We're comfortable with our situation, let's say that," the team boss told BBC Radio Five.
"Once we've got Jenson sorted then we'll be announcing our whole package, and we want to make an impact when we do that.
"


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#20 Archybald

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 13:46

Brawn have their own gearbox.


Aye but from what ive gathered its not "as good" as the merc one and was comprimised. Though the large majority of that "information" has been on multiple forum's topic's so its probabaly questionable at best. lol

#21 mstar

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 13:54

the honda gearbox technology was very good and a lot of resource etc went into it. I can't see them ditching that and using a mercedes one anyone know what Mclaren do? i am sure they use there own?

#22 highdownforce

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 14:32

maybe i am wrong but the odds and evidence shows BGP002 will not be as good as mclaren/ferrari/redbull

I'd say that the BGP002 is already behind those guys.
The real concern now is Renault and Williams.

#23 Buckethead

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 14:38

I didn't like Jenson but I saw a dream last night that I was in F1 GP and he and Jessica were really friendly to me so now I'm okay with both of them. lulz

#24 Psymon

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 15:14

I do agree (ish) with alot of what you say especially with Red Bull/McLaren/ferarri's development. However i cant help but wonder how the "bodge job" possibly hampered any in season development.


That's something I have wondered about as well. The BGP001 has carried the compromise from the bodge job throughout the season. They could have decided that development to specifically try and counter the issues associated with the engine installation was not worth it as it would in effect be a development dead-end as the issues wouldn't be in the new car due to the design being built round the engine from the start.

Getting rid of the engine compromises in the new car should give a performance boost without anything else being done. How good the rest of the team's development is going to be compared to the competition we will be able to get some idea of come february, but won't know for sure till Bahrain.

#25 Archybald

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 15:32

Getting rid of the engine compromises in the new car should give a performance boost without anything else being done. How good the rest of the team's development is going to be compared to the competition we will be able to get some idea of come february, but won't know for sure till Bahrain.


Also a large portion is how much of a boost will it be? 0.001 sec or 1.000 or even more. Though there is a worrying possibility that the bodge job was a sort of golden egg where some sort of combination of hacking the car away to pieces gave it a performance boost (in some sort of weird way).


#26 Matt Somers

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 15:40

I actually doubt that I think the RA109 which became the BGP001 would have been aerodynamically stronger than the BGP001 however the Mercedes engine offers a much wider spread of power than the Honda counterpart so one in theory practically cancelled out the other.... Aero vs Performance (yes that old adage)

#27 Timstr11

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 15:42

It's all about balancing resources you put into the current car and next season's car.

Brawn started very comfortbaly. They were well aware of the deficiencies, but still chose not to redesign the tub and gearbox, as they appeared to have a very dominant car early in the season, despite the compromises.

I gues their bet was to win the championship, despite the deficiencies, and they did!
Surely, money was an argument as they had to think about the 2010 car as well.

However, things started to become difficult when other teams started to catch up rapidly, it was too late to opt for the fundamental changes required to take away the compromises in the car.

As a result, they limped towards the championship, but nonetheless they got there, without directing huge resources into the 2009 car (like McLaren did). And this actually puts them in a good posisiton for 2010, in terms of resources for the 2010 car.

I think the Brawn detractors should worry about the fact that Brawn won the championship and kept good speed until the end despite a "heavily compromised car" (too heavy affecting weight distribution and tuning balast, too high COG).

Edited by Timstr11, 06 November 2009 - 15:46.


#28 pippin

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 15:56

I'm expecting the BGP002 to be competitive but just how competitive I dunno. Yes we heard about the compromises made with the BGP001 and I still think this must have had a detrimental effect regardless of the Merc engine. So I kinda hope there'll be a bit of quick win time to be had by being able to package things better.

Regardless of how the Brawn turns out though, Red Bull and Maclaren are definitely going to be competitive next year and Ferrari should be too. So its gonna be much tougher in 2010 for Brawn, though I understand they do have a long term sponsorship deal in place. The big unknown for me is Mercedes. Increased support from them could make all the difference.

#29 athlon

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 16:05

Despite the DDD I think there is a huge potencial for the BrawnGP. The basic is very good and the rules won't change a lot. Just remember to 2006 season, Renault could maintain their success despite the engine rules changing + tyres.
We'll see, but I'm pretty optimistic about the long-term future of the team because of Mercedes-support, and the stability. I can imagine that Brawn have been developing the BGP 002 since July and it was the reason why they dropped a bit.

#30 Timstr11

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 16:48

Brawn reveals development strategy to Ted Kravitz.

#31 Clatter

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 16:57

The doubt I have in my mind lays in the fact Honda was never able to maitain any momentum from one season to another, and these are basically those same Honda guys, but building a car around a Mercedes engine.


Honda were never able to field a championship winning car, but these are basically the guys that did. They have reached the top and it is a much harder job to stay there, but IMHO it's wrong to look back at Honda now, so much has changed within the team.

#32 Clatter

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 16:58

Brawn was already outdeveloped this year by the teams that tried, the other teams just stopped developement to focus on next year. Next year won't be very good for them unless some new loophole is found.


Brawn also were concentrating on next year, that's one of the reasons their development didn't keep up, but with the lead they had they didn't need to.

#33 arnold09

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 17:56

Well the pitstops will be different as its no refuels and the car ristrictions have change so i think we will see un expected results.

#34 maccaFTW

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 07:44

The backward development was more a case of getting things slightly wrong mid-season and the problems of having a chassis with the back cut off to accept an engine it was never designed for.

But by the end they were certainly looking very strong again. Not race-winning pace as such, but then they didn't really need it with Jenson's lead.

Pretty much every shortcoming the team has had this year can be explained by the rather rapid nature of how this season came together. This winter they'll be able to worry about speed rather than existence which will help massively.

I don't see the massive drop-off coming that everyone else is predicting (or, it would seem, hoping for). I don't see them dominating like they did this year because Ferrari and McLaren have had no choice but to raise their game, but I don't see Brawn dropping off the radar. There's nothing institutionally broken at the team that could realistically cause a slump. Ross knows how to run a team and the fact that they did so well in spite of everything that was thrown at them only speaks volumes of their strength.


Right on.

Brawn are a team of the future, I think. They had to really blow their wad this year to win the championship and attracting backing.

If the rumors about Mercedes buying a controlling stake are true, they'll be set.

#35 Slyder

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 11:00

BTW guys, just noticed something.

1969, was the first championship Ken Tyrrell won with Stewart using Matra chassis.

40 years later Brawn GP score.

Killing time I suppose but, it's a nice stat to see what after all this time, Ken Tyrrell's team rebanded and rebadged over the years, is still capable after all this time.

#36 Peter Perfect

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 11:41

Brawn reveals development strategy to Ted Kravitz.


Very interesting. Thanks.

I didn't think Ross would forget next season (Ferraris continued success while he was there is proof that he doesn't only concentrate on the here and now) but it sounds like Brawn should be a real force next season. :D And it also puts Red Bulls performance improvements into context if Brawn basically stopped developing from the Turkish GP.

#37 Brawn BGP 001

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 11:48

Very interesting. Thanks.

I didn't think Ross would forget next season (Ferraris continued success while he was there is proof that he doesn't only concentrate on the here and now) but it sounds like Brawn should be a real force next season. :D And it also puts Red Bulls performance improvements into context if Brawn basically stopped developing from the Turkish GP.

Yeah, looking good. :D

#38 mstar

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 17:51

am i correct in saying that no matter what redbull/mclaren/ferrari have much bigger resource? somthing like 700+ people? brawn had to make redundencies and down to 450-ish people. Thats got to hurt car development it has too!!
i know there are rules for 2011 everyone has to be around brawn size BUT 2010 they still have the 700+ ppl

#39 Clatter

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 18:46

am i correct in saying that no matter what redbull/mclaren/ferrari have much bigger resource? somthing like 700+ people? brawn had to make redundencies and down to 450-ish people. Thats got to hurt car development it has too!!
i know there are rules for 2011 everyone has to be around brawn size BUT 2010 they still have the 700+ ppl


Depends on what the extra people do. They won't all be engaged in the design process.

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#40 GIBF1

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 21:07

Depends on what the extra people do. They won't all be engaged in the design process.


Exactly, if i'm not mistaken didn't Toyota have more catering staff at race weekends than Super Aguri had team members

It was obviously a shame that people had to be made redundant, but having so few people at the track brought the team together

With the rules regarding numbers of people on site changing in 2011 i hope and think Brawn will benefit from it


#41 mstar

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 21:37

do you really think a well run/championship teams like Mclaren and Ferrari -half of the team member be cleaners/catering come on guys the teams know what makes them win its design/research car development this would probably explain why redbull/mclaren overtook brawn as they have enough resources to concentrate on this years car AND next years.

its just my thinking :)

#42 Clatter

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 21:44

do you really think a well run/championship teams like Mclaren and Ferrari -half of the team member be cleaners/catering come on guys the teams know what makes them win its design/research car development this would probably explain why redbull/mclaren overtook brawn as they have enough resources to concentrate on this years car AND next years.

its just my thinking :)


You can only have so many people in the design office else they will start tripping over each other. It's yet to be seen if RBR really do have the resources to concentrate on this years and next years cars. Mac should have, and yet they still got it wrong this season. It only takes one man to have a winning idea that will give a team an edge.

#43 Kompressor

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 22:21

the honda gearbox technology was very good and a lot of resource etc went into it. I can't see them ditching that and using a mercedes one anyone know what Mclaren do? i am sure they use there own?


The Honda gearbox has been a strength for the team. Brawn GP should be strong contenders now that they don't have to compromise their latest chassis design.

#44 Timstr11

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 12:10

Brawns names a few of the installation improvements:

"The main thing for us is that it's the second year of working with Mercedes and it should be a much better installation because we've had an opportunity to begin early and have the sort of exhaust system we need, design the gearbox properly for the engine, design the chassis properly for the engine, put the right coolers on... so we should benefit from all those things."



#45 David1976

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 16:30

I still think that the leading teams (McLaren, Ferrari) will have a faster car than Brawn- better installation, earlier design, or not...

I would be staggered if Brawn come out with a car better than 3rd best on the grid.

#46 metz

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 17:20

AMuS reports the Brawn colour will be silver.

#47 highdownforce

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 17:37

AMuS reports the Brawn colour will be silver.

Google translation.

#48 Archybald

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 17:42

AMuS reports the Brawn colour will be silver.


Aww ... i kinda like the white+yellowish green it was the 2nd easiest blur to make out! lol

#49 highdownforce

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 18:34

http://globoesporte....12910-EX,00.jpg
Telling...

#50 Timstr11

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 18:46

Telling...

Quite...

So we can expect an announcement by next week according to AMuS.