18 replies to this topic

[qvn]

I am a Toyota fan. They do very well in Automobile industry. I like their products and creativity (look at their hybrid generation).

So I cannot understand why they failed in F1 even with big money they spent there for last few years. Reading
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/80183

now I know part of reasons. If you know any other reason why please let us know.

[schtix]

They built good cars and generally started seasons quite strongly but never developed quickly enough. The whole organisation was run like a huge corporation, not a highly tuned and efficient racing team.

[johnmhinds]

Having the most mediocre driver line up in F1 history didn't really help.

[Demo.]

Don't forget that Toyota are a business first and foremost.
They only staid in F1 while it was worth their while to do so.
The amount of money they poured in for 0 return and in the end the board look at all that money and thought we can get a better a return using it somewhere else.
End result the board pull Toyota out of F1.
It is that simple and anything else is just excuses why.
Just ask yourself how did the board feel when the car in front was never a toyota.

[highdownforce]

Mika Salo also has his opinion about it.

[scheivlak]

Having the most mediocre driver line up in F1 history didn't really help.

Say what you want (and I've never been a fan of either of them) but when they had the Trulli/Ralf pairing in 2005 they had 2 proven GP winners.
Ralf's 2001 Imola win and Jarno's 2004 Monaco win are among the most underestimated performances of the decade.

There was no reason why they shouldn't copy a performance like that with another car capable of winning.
Toyota just felt short of that in 2005.

Apart from that, the choice of that pair as such was not a happy one, it was a bit like choose 2 good drivers with the same defects.
You saw them both rather seldom really battling forwards but more often choosing to defend their position and gaining by strategy.
If they'd chosen to spend a part of their big budget to lurk one really good fighter (e.g. Montoya, just to drop a name) at an available moment, they just might have had their chance.

[ItisI]

Well, to make it to the grid you need some serious money. Without money you dont have a spot on the grid, so money is up to there everything.

Your succes depends on the moment i guess you enter F1, Toyota entered F1 on a moment where the cars had been an evolution year after yead after year, teams like McLaren / Ferrari / Williams were squizing the max from the regulations and their cars, those teams knew how to maximize just about everything. You can see from the results Toyota were adapting to the regulations quit good thoughtout the years. Just look at the results, Toyota was climbing. But i think Toyota's main problem was the speed to adapting to new regulations, Toyota was too focused in its moment it totaly lost whatever was comming, exclusion from year 2009, they did a good job reading through the loopholes and come up with their own DDD.

Its a pitty to see them leave, i really thought Toyota could make the difference in F1 since they have so much experience in almost every autosports where they have been so successful.

and

Edited by ItisI, 17 November 2009 - 18:29.

[jez6363]

My view is that Toyota (and any Japanese team) need to do it THEIR way. They tried to operate in a European fashion, and given that the team was here, and mostly not Japanese, that sounds as if it is the right thing to do. But it isn't and the results showed - for Honda, and Toyota. Their hearts are very much in the right place though - more than BMW I reckon, so I still feel gutted that they have gone.

They need to make a purely Japanese team, based in Japan, with Japanese drivers. Yes, they will use tech from around the world, including their own subsidiaries, but the team needs to be embedded in Japanese culture. The worst case is having Japanese management and a European team - its too big a divide to make work.

I guess we will see how it goes with Lotus - if it works in Malaysia, I can totally see Toyota and Honda coming back into the sport, as Japanese teams, run their way.

The only problem they will have is dealing with a very Eurocentric FIA - a much bigger problem than the Americans have with it. FIA - F for French, I for Insular and A for... (sorry, generalising about the FIA, I respect a lot of the folks involved in it, but I would imagine that from a Japanese perspective, Todt was the last straw).

[BullHead]

I think that the consensus shows that throwing money at a project won't work unless you have the guys in on the project that know what they are doing. And when you have them and they get a little demanding of you, you can't just ignore them, sack them, or whatever. As top level automotive management, by all means fund the project and steer the publicity. But let the guys who know do the actual business - interfere with that aspect at your own risk... that's what Toyota found out. Similar IMO with Ford and the Jaguar thing.

[BullHead]

I mean - pushing MG out after the work he put in? So daft - proof in itself that Toyota weren't going to allow what is needed to succeed in F1

[Dolph]

Having the most mediocre driver line up in F1 history didn't really help.

Trulli matched Alonso in 2004 and Ralf matched JPM in their years in Williams. The driver line up certainly wasn't to blame in the recent years.

[Xaus]

Toyota had the money. Toyota had some pretty decent drivers (former GP winners who knew how to win). Toyota may have even had some damn good engineers.

But none of that mattered because they ran the team like it was a corporate office instead of a, you know, racing team. Whatever innovations, design breakthroughs, or whatever the engineers came up with and wanted implemented on the car they had to go through a shitload of corporate red tape and get all sorts of approvals and what not before it ended up on the car. Which by then the other teams most likely had surpassed that development stage or the advantage would have been a lot less if they had put it on the car more immediately.

Also, the upper management of Toyota F1 was just confusing. Who really ran the team? Yamashina? Howett?

The team may have been made up of racers but they never took off the corporate leash and just let them get on with it. I'm just worried that Renault F1 may be headed for a similar "restructuring".

Honestly, I'm surprised Toyota didn't win a race with their Ralf/Jarno pairing. Say what you will of Ralf he's still a grand prix winner.

And maybe they shouldn't have so readily sacked McNish and Salo either. I mean, sure, drop one but both?

You could write several volumes on why it went all wrong for Toyota. I'm pretty saddened by it all, too cause I was a fan of the team. :/ Except for Howett.

[BullHead]

And maybe they shouldn't have so readily sacked McNish and Salo either.

Quite. I've always said that. Toyota management enforced too many structural changes too quickly because they expected too much too soon, but ultimately got nothing long term for forever chasing their tail. Ala Ford Jag. (still bitter)

[johnmhinds]

Trulli matched Alonso in 2004 and Ralf matched JPM in their years in Williams. The driver line up certainly wasn't to blame in the recent years.

Ralf and Trulli were in the sport for 4 years before both Alonso and JMP started.
Seeing how you say they only matched people who were new to the sport and then got left far behind by them in later years only further proves how mediocre both have been.

Toyota didn't manage to attract a single top level driver in 7 years.
That is why they didn't win any races.

I'll never know why they stuck with Trulli for so many years.
He was only known for short fueling qualifying and then holding everyone up for the first half of the race.

He literally was the Trulli Train.

Maybe the Toyota management thought this was a good thing.

Someone needs to work out how many times Toyota drivers dropped back through the pack in a race and how many passes were made.
I'll bet my house on them dropping back into the pack far more than they passed.

Edited by johnmhinds, 17 November 2009 - 21:45.

[Dolph]

Ralf and Trulli were in the sport for 4 years before both Alonso and JMP started.
Seeing how you say they only matched people who were new to the sport and then got left far behind by them in later years only further proves how mediocre both have been.

Toyota didn't manage to attract a single top level driver in 7 years.
That is why they didn't win any races.

Alright, buster, Trulli matched Alonso in 2003 AND 2004. Ralf matched JPM in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004. I'd hardly say JPM was a rookie in 2004 and I'd hardly say JPM left RS far behind in later years. He actually quit F1 due to poor performances. Lets stick to the facts shall we? Or are they in the way of your bashing of Toyota driver choices?

[johnmhinds]

Alright, buster, Trulli matched Alonso in 2003 AND 2004.

2003:
Alonso 6th 55 points
Trulli 8th 33 points

2004:
Alonso 4th 59 points
Trulli 6th 46 points

Ralf matched JPM in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004.

2001:
Ralf 4th 49 points
JPM 6th 31 points

JPM only finished 6 races that year. And Ralf won 3 races but only ended up 18 points ahead of JPM

2002:
JPM 3rd 50 points
Ralf 4th 42 points

2003:
JPM 3rd 82 points
Ralf 5th 58 points

2004:
JPM 5th 58 points
Ralf 9th 24 points

---

Both Alonso and JPM had the legs on Trulli and Ralf before they switched to Toyota for the money.

Infact JPM finished ahead of both Ralf and Trulli in the 2006 season even though he left Mclaren and didn't compete in the last 8 races, and he retired in 5 of the 10 races he did complete that year.

That is how bad Ralf and Trulli were, they couldn't beat a man who didn't finish over 2/3 of the season.

Edited by johnmhinds, 17 November 2009 - 22:23.

[FenderJaguar]

I believe Toyota failed because the F1 team had to report to the board in Japan too often. Too much focus on small shortsighted results and no good leadership within the team. Sounds weird but they should have picked a dictator with passion and talent and given him some time to do it his way. Usually that what makes a F1 team strongest. Their driver's were never that special either.

[pgj]

I am a Toyota fan. They do very well in Automobile industry. I like their products and creativity (look at their hybrid generation).

So I cannot understand why they failed in F1 even with big money they spent there for last few years. Reading
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/80183

now I know part of reasons. If you know any other reason why please let us know.

Japanese industry developed its own methods towards manufacturing. It is known as 'the Japanese way' or 'the Toyota way' and it has been immensely successful. Japan became the second biggest economy in the world on the strength of it. I won't go into what it is, there is plenty of information on the net. However, when problems arise or a new development comes up a solution is found by committee. Where the idea or culture of the system is to take everyone along with the new idea, in a hearts-and-minds exercize. This usually results in the correct solution being found to a problem, but it is time consuming. F1 has always been much more autocratic than that. It has always has a Head, Newey, or Chapman type figure in overall control of decision making. Quite simply the Toyota way and the F1 way cultures conflict with each other. Attempts to transpose the Toyota way onto F1 have so far failed.

In addition as already stated when a manufacturer takes control of an F1 team a door is opened between the corporate boardroom and the TP's office. Shareholders' interests do not fit easily into F1.

[Jose Mourinho is Special]

Simple Answer

Quality > Quantity