51 replies to this topic

[nivola]

Hi all

I trying to hunt down some images of the BMW 3.5 CSL BMW that Peter Brock took to Le Mans with Brian Muir and Jean-Claude Aubriet.

I have tracked down a few of the images from the press launch in Melbourne but I'm after the correct livery that it ran in at Le Mans.

I have found a few small images but nothing that is strong enough to tell what the logos are on the car.

Is there anyone out there that can help with some images please?

I know that some Japanese model collector seems to have created his own version so it means there has to be some images somewhere in this world.

Nivola

[Spitfire]

Apologies if you've already tried here, as it seems the default stop for Le Mans image searches:

http://www.racingspo...1976-06-13.html

not very good images, but there are two that will at least confirm the basic livery.

Side question: '76 was an odd year, with the NASCAR entries and all, but the site has Jackie Stewart listed DNS for the #19 Renault. Does anyone know the story there?

[nivola]

No problems Spitfire. i have looked there and tried to email the owner of those two images. They are the best That I know of at the moment!

interesting side question by the way!

[Ray Bell]

I'm quite sure there's a good size pic of the car at Le Mans in Peter Brock, Australia's Own Ace Driver...

Have you referred to it?

[nivola]

I will have to hunt that down Ray!

[Ray Bell]

It's a magazine... not a book...

Here's the cover:



In it there's a complete record of Brock's racing up to his 1979 Bathurst demolition. Here's the Le Mans pic, not as good as you'd like, I'm sure... but at least you find out who will have some pics of the car close up!



Do you know where to find John Smailes?

[raceannouncer2003]

Some images here:

http://www.lemans-hi...mp;equipa_seq=0

Vince H.

[cooper997]

I'm quite sure there's a good size pic of the car at Le Mans in Peter Brock, Australia's Own Ace Driver...

Have you referred to it?

Nivola,

There's is a B&W photo of Brock's BMW on pages 34/35 in RCN's Brock magazine (the one Ray refers, and was involved in producing) but not of sufficient clarity for what you want. However the photo is credited to John Smailes, so if you can contact him he may have more.

Also, if it's of any interest I have a 'Bill Patterson Grand Prix BMW' motor show flyer with a cutaway drawing of the car. Can scan if wanted.

Stephen

[Ray Bell]

I see those photos include one of a model...

Which differs in some details to the car sitting in the pits. Good advice, Stephen.

[ellrosso]

We have 2 shots of the car on a truck in the pits at Sandown on the oldracephotos.com website. Type BMW into Advanced Search on the Home Page and it will come up on page 2.
Regards, ellrosso

[cooper997]

Nivola,

I should have dug out the Patto BMW flyer before I made mention of it. It's more generic CSL, than Brock specific. But still handy to see the cutaway details.

I also wonder whether BMW Australia might have something in their archives.

Ray,

Sorry I wasn't trying to repeat you. You obviously posted while I was still tapping away.


Stephen

[thunder427]

Nivola, Peter Brock to Le Mans' was the brain child of one Mr Don Gibb, Don was a way a head of his time as a Motor Sport Promotions 'GURU',he launched Allan Moffats career here in Australia , securing the 'Coca Cola' sponsorship for the now famous 'Mustang'and getting QUANTAS to fly the car to Australia direct from 'Kar Kraft' in the USA .

When Brock feel out of flavour at 'Holden Dealer Team'/Harry Firth, 'DG' (or 'Glibb!!as I call him!!) who had just launched the '05/Drink n Drive'marketing/advertising campaign,here in Melbourne/Aust.,saw the opportunity to create a young 'High' profile celebrity to build the awarness campaign around, Brock was the 'Right Stuff'.

Exciting times ,Don was great to work for,My offical working title was 'OJ' 'Odd Job',but NEVER a dull moment,with all the Brock stuff going on ,I got a phone call from the Glibb.

I was requested to appear in 'Glibbs' office,"there is some ground breaking News and I need your Help"!!!!!!!!!
KAAPPPOWWWWWW!!!,I was in the office,like quick,love SECRETS...........Glibb gave me a simple over view of the intentions to front The Brock at Le Mans and to this end a genuine factory BMW 'race Car had been aquired, would be arriving in a couple of weeks time,...."can you paint prep it for the Le Mans promotion launch to be held at Sandown International Raceway,you'll have about 10 days to do your Magic"!!!!!!!!!............"Yes Sir,you Can Count Me In" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The BMW arrived direct from Kylarmi/SA, were it had raced in the World Touring Car Series, BUT it arrived late due to the Officious AUST CUSTOMS, added to my whoas was the fact that it had had a 'Racing' inccident totaling the 'right' front fender giving me for my end of the job ,less than 10 days to complete prior to 'PRESS DAY'

Peters long time friend and very capable Mechanic ,Garnett Bateson (not sure of spelling!!)offered up his workshop as a base to work from as he made repairs etc to the damaged BMW, I enlisted the assistance of a very capable 'alloy /body man, Chis ( Have a chat!!) Farrell,whom removed the rh/fender and took it to his shop,I removed the doors,Bonnet boot lid,front airdam,rear wing and roof wing,placed them in a borrowed 'Shitty'old 'trade in' utility/(pick-up truck) and was motroing across town to my shop at about 3am in the morning, when out the cnr of my eye I spring a 'POLICE CAR' parked in a side sreet, park lights on...WAITING for the BAD GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep!!!!, you guessed it 'FLASHING BLOODY LIGHTS', so I pull over ,it has to be ME!!!!

"GOOD EVENING DRIVER"!!!!!"License and registration number Please"?????
"Well Sir this not my utility and I dont know the rego number and I dont have my liscense on me, Sir"
"STEP OUT OF THE VEHICLE ,SIR and stand by the tailgate ,PLEASE'!!!!!!!!!!!
So I proceeded to give the Large (Donut Large!) police officer an 'Overview of my situation,and I'm not doing very good,then for some unknown reason I include 'Brook' in my
delivery............"and I've got these panels of Peter Brocks BMW........."AHHHHHH now I know you not on the level young fellow ,AS I KNOW Peter Brock doesn't race a BMW...A HOLDEN is his 'weapon of choice'and I'm a Brockie Fan ,so dont give me any BULLSHHHHHHit'!!!!

So I did a money making deal with our member of the LAW,I subjested to him that he had all my details,so if the press release doesnt show up in the 'Herald/Sun news paper Friday morning,then he could come arround to my place and arrest Me,reminding of how much could be ;MADE" on the 'Odd'wager that Brock was going to drive a BMW.

Its Not really 'Bribing an Officer' as such ,but he did let me go on my way while shakking a 'chubby' finger at me saying,"I'LL BE SEEEEEEING YOOOOU"!!!!!!

alot more story,but to say we made the Press Function is sufficent at this time and I never did see our friendly 'Law Man' again,or thought I did read were a senior member of the Victorian Police Force retired early after a substancial winfall !!!!!!!!!!!!!not true,only kidding...But!!

To close I can offer considerable insight as Mr Glibb recently trusted with me the Brock press release files on Brock and the .05 promotion and the press release file on the BMW/Brock/Le Mans assult................... If only I Knew how to post images!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!............................regards427

[Ray Bell]

Great story...

Someone will put the photos up for you if you send them to them. I'm on the road at the moment, so I can't offer to do it.

[Frank de Jong]

The fact that the car came from South-Africa is interesting; then it must be the white 1975 Faltz-Alpina ETTC champion car of Siegfried Müller Sr and Alain Peltier.
Obviously I don't know how far the car was modified in 1976 (I spot a different front spoiler but that's it; the rear fenders seem unchanged and are of the 1974 works-type) but in 1975 it was a front runner and figured in many magazines; German magazine Rallye Racing had a track test of the car, probably with interior pictures as well.

[Ray Bell]

The car came from SA because it had just raced at Kyalami...

That doesn't mean it lived there, and my story on the car says that it was 'ex-works'.

[Frank de Jong]

I know, it raced in this race: http://homepage.mac...... Kyalami.html where it finished third, behind a Zakspeed Escort and a works CSL.
It was brought to S.A. just for that purpose, after winning the 1975 ETCC title. BMW didn't build any group 2 cars in 1975 (they built a few IMSA spec cars, which were shipped back to Europe in some cases where they were modified into group 2) so this ex-works must be 1974 or even earlier.
The IMSA cars (modified or not) had different rear fenders and I guess three of them were rebuilt into the 1976 Group 5 versions.
I can't think of any other 1975 car which looked exactly like Brock's.

Edited by Frank de Jong, 19 November 2009 - 17:47.

[Kitkent]

The model shown is the Provence Moulage 1/43 resin kit,they made I think all the variations of the CSL at Le Mans. And others.

[thunder427]

.............to prove to the police officer that I didn't have a pick-up tray full of random BMW parts,I showed him the Bonnet that still had the signage that read 'KYLAMAI SUN',They may have been the event sponsor in SA..................regards427

[Lola5000]

The 1976 program for the Sandown hang ten/AGP at Sandown has a excellant standing photo of PB and the car.
regards Rob Bailey.

[Lola5000]

Hey Miles ,always thought the Coco Cola deal with the AM 'Stang was the work of AMs ex's father whom at the time worked for Coke.

[Ray Bell]

I'd been told that he met Pauline when she worked at Coca Cola...

Not sure of the truth of this at all, but the story went that either during the negotiations of during the life of the deal, Allan met Pauline as she was the secretary to someone with whom he dealt.

[nivola]

Morning all

Thank you for all your replay's.

I'm glad that there is an interest in this car and that there are people that want to talk about it. Or are we all just tragic?

Ray, John Smailes is one that I don't have a contact email for or phone number. I've been meaning to try and track him and Will Hagan down for a few things that I'm involved with. There is a massive amount of history in those to people.

raceannouncer2003 thank you for the link as I can now see the images in a larger size. The little thumbnails where abit awkward to read the decals. I have tried to email the owner of the images as well to see what else he may have.

Thunder427 thank you for your history lesson on "The Run" funny to here the story's that you guys have of times gone by when you could get away with a few little things! I'm interested to see some of the press release information and I think a few on here would be interested as well. if you need thinks uploaded to be applied to the forum send us a pm and I will give you my email address.

And to all sorry for my slow reply as i was having three days at the track. Boring V8 Weekend. There still a Jane Brabham issue up there!

Nivola

[Ray Bell]

I'll try to find out John Smailes' contact for you...

Send me an e.mail so I can give it to you when I get it. Address as below.

[Ian G]

..and Will Hagan can be contacted thru the ABC as he still does a late night Radio Car Show.

[thunder427]

......Spoke with Don('Glibb') Gibb today,has been busy winning ,Gold,Silver,Bronze Medals in the ,Singles in rowing at the 'Senior Games' just held in Sydney,very impressive at 73
Alan Moffat/Pauline/Coca Cola
......Ray Bell is the winner!!!!!!!!!Pauline was the PA/Secretary to the Marketing Director David Maxwell at Coca Cola Head Office and over time etc etc......
The Gibb Created the deal with 'Coca Cola' Australia,basically it was a 50/50 deal with Coca Cola Aust and the State bottlers (eg,Coca Cola Qld,Vic,SA,NSW etc),the deal was so well created that the income ,alone from NSW afforded Moffat the Opportunity to aquire the 1969, 'KarKraft' (Ford/USA Racing Division) Mustang,which arrived in Melbourne, courtesy of Quantas Sponsorship deal (Gibb) in bare metal, there are photo's of the Mustang on the tarmac with Coca Cola/Quantas Decals on it ,Gibb never missed a 'Kodak' moment, the true showman/professional)

NOW!!!back to the Brock Mobile, Don said if there is any questions, he is happy to answer them thru my post,as at this time his 'Fruit Juice'company is going extremely well in Aust and Asia and he is very very busy...........He did subjest that I have to write 'as he see's it'.....Brock wasn't the 'Guru' he later became, which 'Glibb' accredits, Bev, Pete's partner of many years.........Peter, suffered from 'star' syndrome, so as Don, said some of the answers may be a little 'Truthful'....................regards427

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by thunder427
.....Ray Bell is the winner! Pauline was the PA/Secretary to the Marketing Director David Maxwell at Coca Cola Head Office and over time etc etc.....

Thank you...

And as I read that I just realised who had told me. It was Carol Hopwood (Peter Hopwood's widow), who also worked at Coca Cola at the time. So it was 'inside information' to some extent!

.....He did suggest that I have to write 'as he sees it'.....Brock wasn't the 'Guru' he later became, which 'Glibb' accredits, Bev, Pete's partner of many years... Peter, suffered from 'star' syndrome, so as Don said, some of the answers may be a little 'Truthful'.

Do you also think that Bev had anything to do with 'building' a better Brock?

Perhaps a minor role, methinks. I think she worked on some simple things like diet and stability that were bound to help, but GM executives probably had more to do with building the image (even when he was doing his own thing... it was still in their best interests as he was inexorably connected with GM in the public mind) than anyone else. Brock's own personna was quick to adapt as he saw the need to make his own way through this period, and remember that 'Plastic' was on hand to help with the creation.

[Hank the Deuce]

Wasn't Plastic working for Glibb at that stage?

[Ray Bell]

Could have been...

But Plastic was very close to Peter, as was Grant Speers. They were together an awful lot at that time.

[Hank the Deuce]

Could have been...

But Plastic was very close to Peter, as was Grant Speers. They were together an awful lot at that time.

IIRC (and this is of course only what I'd read, but "The Rise And Fall...." seemed well-researched and detailed), but The Spear (wasn't his last name "Steers"?) was living with PB in the wake of his separation from Michelle Downes. The Spear had worked for Joe Felice at Holden and met brock through the HDT IIRC.

The Plastic connection apparently came about through Don Gibbs' organisation of Brock's involvement in the "Class Driving" concept (was it a VicRoads initiative?) seen advertised on the Gown-Hindhaugh L34. According to that account, Plastic was mainly tending bar after leaving his previous employ, and was odd-jobbing for DG, who dispatched him with Brock on the road, operating the slide projector and giving Brock a bit of PR guidance. They apparently got on famously from the word go, and according to Plastic's account, would even exchange roles at varying engagements for a lark. Sounds like wild days.

[Ray Bell]

Could have been Steers...

I thought he was one of Harry's men, though? Not an executive type.

It's certainly an interesting bit of history, including the way that Bev poached a position in Peter's life and left her former life behind.

And where is Karen McPherson these days?

[Hank the Deuce]

Could have been Steers...

I thought he was one of Harry's men, though? Not an executive type.

It's certainly an interesting bit of history, including the way that Bev poached a position in Peter's life and left her former life behind.

And where is Karen McPherson these days?

A remarkable story all round, and the ascension of many of the players concurrently with Brock's rising stardom was quite uncanny.

I believe Grant Steers sold off a stack of Brock memorabilia a couple of years back, including the winner's plaque from the 1972 Hardie 500, and the driver's armband from that year, a portion of the Brock memorabilia he had collected through his roles as a Holden junior exec, Brock's flatmate and friend, and Holden/HDT Liaison Officer.

Bev's appearance in the saga, viewed from the pictures painted in both Bill T's book, and Webby's more recent effort is indeed interesting, including Webby's reporting on Plastic's (or was it The Spear's?) take on James McIntosh's view of it all...

[Ray Bell]

No news about Karen?

I met her just the once. She was at Warwick Farm, the last ever meeting there, entered in her Torana... she showed me her engagement ring, I asked her how she liked the circuit, but she really didn't care.

"I just came here to come between them," she told me. "So when are you and Peter getting married?" I asked. "We're not, I just wanted the ring."

The Michelle Downs thing happened very quickly soon afterwards...

[Hank the Deuce]

Great anedcote, Ray.

The story of Gibb sending Brock around to see Michelle, as their relationship dissolved, with a piece of paper to sign (renouncing any claims to the race team they were setting up circa 1976 IIRC), and Brock embarking on vigorous "reunifications" each time, only to have the paper re-drafted and him dispatched again, was a beauty too.

[Ray Bell]

I knew more about his relationship with Heather, actually...

She was 'with' him when we met, back in early 1966, and I stayed at her folks' place on a couple of occasions.

[nivola]

I got to talk to Will Hagan on Sunday.

So hopefully I get an email some time soon.

Interesting those i got to talk to on the weekend at homebush.

[Ray Bell]

Did you get onto John Smailes?

I have his contact here should you want to e.mail me...

[Hank the Deuce]

I believe that David Hassall has another Brock book out, either now or soon... wonder if it might shed some light on the Bimmer... or Karen McPherson...

[Ray Bell]

I wouldn't think so...

Not the type.

[Hank the Deuce]

I wouldn't think so...

Not the type.

::

Others have suggested not to hold my breath for it to shed any light on anything of substance...

[thunder427]

[quote name='Hank the Deuce' date='Dec 14 2009, 03:43' post='4038600']
::

Others have suggested not to hold my breath for it to shed any light on anything of substance...

Hank the Deuce!!!!!!!...I think most people attached in some way to the 'Past Years' that worked in the 'SMALL" industry,Show Boating as the Australian Touring Car Series all felt that in some way,we were a Family,so to 'Rat' on a Family Memember, such as Peter B, its not 'Good House Keeping'..........as for myself, I Had a real 'Bun Fight' with Peter,at about 7.30 in the morning prior to the Sandown Press Release regarding the Signage being only 1/2 finished (forget the fact I had slept in the BMW that night), #1. because I didnt have enough money to put petrol in the 'Loan'ute,let alone EAT!!!, #2.The Vynal for the stripes around the Lower section of the car had run out,#3.the one and only company (at that time) that did the 'Cut-out-Letters' hadn't delivered the signage..............PB gave plenty and I matched it ,reminding him that I was not working for him (Peter!) I was employed by GIBB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,PB went to Sandown and I got on and finished the job with the BMW arriving, FINISHED',on time as arranged...........subsequently I never got to work for Peter ever again............such is life!!!....I got a opportunity to work for Bob Jane sometime later and still with Bob to this day,which I thoroughly enjoy,we have built a great friendship...couple of 'Rev-Heads'....notice, I NEVER mention 'old'....Rev-Heads have a time-less fasination with 'Things Mechanical'..............regards427 ;)

Gibb has offered some insight to the 'Macinations' with reference to the Le-Mans bid and its demise, which he has stated must be worded as He saw it and lived it, but as stated 'The Glibb'is super busy at this time with his 'export' opportunity....................regards/427

[Hank the Deuce]

::

Others have suggested not to hold my breath for it to shed any light on anything of substance...

Hank the Deuce!!!!!!!...I think most people attached in some way to the 'Past Years' that worked in the 'SMALL" industry,Show Boating as the Australian Touring Car Series all felt that in some way,we were a Family,so to 'Rat' on a Family Memember, such as Peter B, its not 'Good House Keeping'..........as for myself, I Had a real 'Bun Fight' with Peter,at about 7.30 in the morning prior to the Sandown Press Release regarding the Signage being only 1/2 finished (forget the fact I had slept in the BMW that night), #1. because I didnt have enough money to put petrol in the 'Loan'ute,let alone EAT!!!, #2.The Vynal for the stripes around the Lower section of the car had run out,#3.the one and only company (at that time) that did the 'Cut-out-Letters' hadn't delivered the signage..............PB gave plenty and I matched it ,reminding him that I was not working for him (Peter!) I was employed by GIBB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,PB went to Sandown and I got on and finished the job with the BMW arriving, FINISHED',on time as arranged...........subsequently I never got to work for Peter ever again............such is life!!!....I got a opportunity to work for Bob Jane sometime later and still with Bob to this day,which I thoroughly enjoy,we have built a great friendship...couple of 'Rev-Heads'....notice, I NEVER mention 'old'....Rev-Heads have a time-less fasination with 'Things Mechanical'..............regards427 ;)

Gibb has offered some insight to the 'Macinations' with reference to the Le-Mans bid and its demise, which he has stated must be worded as He saw it and lived it, but as stated 'The Glibb'is super busy at this time with his 'export' opportunity....................regards/427

THanks, Thunder, great anecdote.

Actually, my previous post wasn't in reference to a real desire for any further salaciousnessness, as that seems to generally be the first cat out of the bag, especially in the case of deceased former Men Of The People... but rather, more insight than "X was a great guy who drove fast"

[thunder427]

Hank the Deuce!!!....I'm sure if the Glibb was answer your reply he would subjest that Peter was Impatient for more of every thing,the fact the he could 'Wheel' a car fast probably hadnt synchronised at this point of the proceedings,from my observation point (and that was a some way back in the stand!!) sidelinning with Gibb (come to think of it , I used to head the Peter Brock Fan Club,'Thumbs Up', at that time,purely from the promotional aspect,or though I do think we started something of a Bathurst phenomenon,I had worked in a 'Display Studio/Art Room' previously and would go back and use the studio to manufacture sign banners;'BROCK-TORANA-TERRIFIC';BOND-TORANA-FANTASTIC';I cut out large cardboard THUMBS-UP hands on a pole to wave as 'The Brock or Bond' Flashed by,I also created the cardboard hand with the 'V' for victory (like Winston!!! ) but once distributed to the mass's, got used 'Incorrectly'.......WOW!!! that was a flash back!!!..sorry ramble!!).......where were we??? oh Peter,As Gibb said of his own career at that time there was 'No Limit' to what could be achieved in 'Promotional Motorsport and Australia was rapidly catching up within its own boarders influenced by 'Happenings' overseas.........................Peter was at the front of the 'Freight Train'...................regards427

[nivola]

Finally the reason why I started this thread to ask you all about the BMW.



1-43rd scale
www.biante.com.au

Thank you all that helped.

Edited by nivola, 01 February 2010 - 05:50.

[cooper997]

nivola,

So is it just a prototype model or available?

Stephen

[Lee Nicolle]

Finally the reason why I started this thread to ask you all about the BMW.



1-43rd scale
www.biante.com.au

Thank you all that helped.

That livery does not look right. I cannot remember BP.
Myles since you signed it can you remember?

[nivola]

It is the prototype. it will be out hopefully in a months time. i will have to look up the rough timing for release.

I first got to see it in china several weeks ago and yes the livery is correct.

I was shown a series of images from a Lemans annual and they where from race morning. These images I had never seen before and was truely blown away as it was not what I was expecting to see.

[Ray Bell]

These are pictures that didn't come up here?

Would be interesting to see them.

[nivola]

Something I would like to get my hands on ray but sadly I cant.

I was handed images and didn't see them computer based so it means I can just go grab them.

These annuals are magic with several side profile shots of each car. They do it will over there.

Ray

[Jager]

I picked up my 1:43 model of the Brock BMW and have already posted the picture below in the 'Racing Collectables' section.



However, since I picked up my model I've had a nagging doubt that this car should have gold wheels rather than silver. I can't find any definitive picture that confirms it one way or another, but the (poor) picture on RSC suggest to me the wheels should be gold.

Here's another picture from the paddock / scrutineering where you can see the BMW in the background. Again, not definite, but the small glimpse of the rear wheel looks more gold than silver to me.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oCnW51tP3M.....;/1976-76-7.jpg

Several of the other BWM's at Le Mans that year definitely ran gold wheels as well. Does anyone know for sure which wheels the car ran.

It's also been pointed out that is seems strange that a car with Bridgestone sponsorship would run Dunlop tyres, or stranger still they they would add Dunlop logos even if they were running Dunlops because they were superior to anything Bridgestone could supply. I would think there is more to this story ?

[Lee Nicolle]

I picked up my 1:43 model of the Brock BMW and have already posted the picture below in the 'Racing Collectables' section.



However, since I picked up my model I've had a nagging doubt that this car should have gold wheels rather than silver. I can't find any definitive picture that confirms it one way or another, but the (poor) picture on RSC suggest to me the wheels should be gold.

Here's another picture from the paddock / scrutineering where you can see the BMW in the background. Again, not definite, but the small glimpse of the rear wheel looks more gold than silver to me.

http://4.bp.blogspot...;/1976-76-7.jpg

Several of the other BWM's at Le Mans that year definitely ran gold wheels as well. Does anyone know for sure which wheels the car ran.

It's also been pointed out that is seems strange that a car with Bridgestone sponsorship would run Dunlop tyres, or stranger still they they would add Dunlop logos even if they were running Dunlops because they were superior to anything Bridgestone could supply. I would think there is more to this story ?

Possibly the tyre conflict is that Bridgestone had nothing suitable for Brock [that has happened before] And they were a sponsor to him for more than tyres. And possibly the Dunlop stickers were part of a supply contract that you must afix stickers, or even part of an entry requirement.eg Dunlop are an event sponsor.
As for the rest I have no idea. Myles may remember.