17 replies to this topic

[island]

Hi!
The 5000`s power/torque is no match for a
nimble F1 machine, they said. And in most
F1/F5000 contests the GP cars had the upper
hand.
But what might have been... David Hobbs and
Brett Lunger in Hogan Lolas T330s established
an absolute track record at (pre-Woodcote
chicane)Silverstone on April 7, 1973. The next day the International Trophy was on.
JYS hounding Ronnie`s Lotus 72 all the way.
But the Swede could only better the Hobbs/
Lunger mark by 0.5s.
And then Watkins Glen. Let the figures speak
for themselves.
Pole Position
1973 Can-Am: Donohue Porsche 917/30 1m38.848
1974 F1: Reuteman Brabham BT 44 1m38.978
1975 F5000: Redman Lola T332 1m38.316

Given the right driver/car combination,
a F5000 would have beaten F1.

Who argues?

[Keir]

"Bollocks"

[Ray Bell]

Three out of four such contests in the 1979 Rothmans series in Australia went to F5000 - Alfredo Costanzo (T430) at Sandown and Adelaide International Raceway; Warwick Brown (T333) at Oran Park; David Kennedy (Wolf WR4) at Surfers Paradise. The series was won by Larry Perkins (Elfin MR8). The 1980 AGP saw a no-contest event with Alan Jones walking away by five laps.
The circuit would have to play a very big part in this match.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[John Cross]

I remember the 1971 Questor GP at Ontario - this was billed as the 'War of the Worlds' (F1 v F5000). Mark Donohue actually led for a while in his F5000 Lola T192 before he had fuel feed problems, Mario Andretti winning eventually in the glorious Ferrari 312B. F5000 ran with F1 cars in 5 of the 8 non-chamionship events that year.

Personally I think they offered great value for money, although the crude engines offended the purists. Mind you, the Can-Am cars of the late 1960s (before Porsche blitzed everyone away) used 'crude' Chevy motors that were actually very efficient when you looked at the power to weight ratio.

Anyone else think that the engine capacity is over-rated as a means of comparison? Should we not regard the engine as a 'black box' and compare the measurable parameters like power, weight, size and fuel consumption? Sorry, I guess this should have been posted in the tech forum! Got carried away ...

------------------
I'll be back...

[Ray Bell]

For sheer grunt the F5000s were pretty well equipped - just they had that weight penalty, and all at the back end. They also had a running cost penalty (in my opinion) because there wasn't a gearbox made especially for them, so they ran the DG with a diff that was a tad on the fragile side.
Now, McCormack's McLaren was a good example of someone addressing the deficiencies. The P76 engine (Rover 3500 with an extra inch on top of the block, so stretching it to 5000cc was no big deal), with the Irving heads that were made legal in Australia because of cracking in Chevy heads (aftermarket heads with certain restrictions were thus allowed), this was a car to look seriously at. He also erred in the gearbox, which was the F1 FG400 box, which was too weak in the gears, even though Holinger made stronger gears for him.
But little equalled a grid full of F5000s taking off - lots of furious wheelspin, brute force tamed by rudimentary sophistication in the chassis... and so much more available than F1.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Dennis David]

For me F1 vs. F5000 is a dichotomy that I cannot breach. Even though the racing was great I couldn't fully forget their pedigree and were they to race together I would not have much time for F5000. So for me the times are irrelevant.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Grand Prix History

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

[BRG]

If I may draw your attention to the following: -

Race of Champions, 17 March 1973, Brands Hatch, England, 40 laps

1 Peter Gethin Chevron-Chevrolet B24 '72-05' 57m22.9, 110.34mph
2 Denny Hulme McLaren-Cosworth M23 'M23/1' 57m26.3
3 James Hunt Surtees-Cosworth TS9 '006' 40 laps
4 Tony Trimmer Williams-Cosworth FX3 '1' 40 laps
5 Tony Dean Chevron-Chevrolet B24 '72-02' 39 laps
6 Jean-Pierre Beltoise BRM P160 '160-03' 39 laps

A fair and square win by a F5000 car

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Dave Ware]

Yes, but...

I was not aware of the F5000/F1 races down under. This is when my attention to racing started to wane. Were the F1 cars state of the art?

Gethin's win in '73 is the only example I know of in which a F5000 car bested a combined field. I just happened to glance at a race report of that race the other night. Wish I had looked at it in more detail. I remember that Gethin qualified fifth for that race, and was assisted in his charge to P1 by several faster F1 cars who ran into mechanical difficulties.

Donahue's car at the Questor Grand Prix was the only F5000 car that was well prepared. The other F5000 entries were one-off deals just for that race, and in his book Donahue says that the others just weren't well prepared. So his performance there is indicitave of what a good F5000 car, with a great driver/engineer, could do. (Donahue also had prior experience of that road circuit that was built into the Ontario Motor Speedway, which none of the F1 guys had.)

For several years there were at least two combined races in England, and I believe that Gethin's win is the only occasion that a F5000 car saw victory. The proof might be in that pudding.

On the other hand, the best F5000 cars anytime, anywhere in the world may be those prepared by Hall/Haas for Redman and Vels-Parnelli for Andretti. What might have happened if those teams had contested the combined races in England?

Maybe we can look at F5000 and F1 qualifying and race times for the same year, at Mosport and Watkins Glen. Island, you seem to have access to the info...I pass the baton to you.

Dave

[Racer.Demon]

Gethin qualified 8th, a full 2.8 seconds down on pole man Beltoise in the BRM. Favourites Lauda and Peterson both retired, on laps 29 and 18 respectively.

A shame I don't have a weather report. Was this a genuine dry win or did the British weather play a part in it?

R.D

[BRG]

Don't know about the weather, but it would have been the same for everyone - would a wet track favour the lighter, more agile F1s or the more driveable F5000s?

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Ray Bell]

First, the cars that ran in the Rothmans Series in 1979 were a year or three old - variously described in the race reports as Ensign MN05 and MN09 and Wolf WR3 and WR4 (wonderful! And I wrote three of the four reports! Damned typesetters!). They were owned by Teddy Yip, anyway.
Next point - I think in any such discussion it must be taken into account that there was a significant difference in tyres. F1 tyres were different sizes, constructions and compounds to the F5000... which was one of the reasons McCormack went for the McLaren and the fragile Leyland engine. That tyre difference spreads also into the wet tyre availability and type in inclement conditions.
As I have said before, unless you were in the team, there is little chance of you knowing enough about the variables to determine whether or not a performance was typical or hampered by some contingency.
My hunch is that the rear weight bias of the F5000s would not be outweighed by their mid-range torque and that the F1s would have been better in the wet.
As to the best prepared - the Theodore Racing car was always well turned out and well driven by Alan Jones. Little could be said to detract from the Pat Burke Racing turnout or Warwick Brown's driving either, and the Team van der Straaten cars were a match for most things - especially in that series when they ran the Chevron and the T430 - lovely little cars.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Dave Ware]

Wouldn't you expect that most F1 cars would be better prepared than most F5000 cars? I would think so. If so, then, even if the two classes were equal, then the superior preperation of the F1 machinery would make the difference.

Even in those days I'm sure that F1 teams had far greater budgets than most if not all F5000 teams.

Dave

[This message has been edited by Dave Ware (edited 04-13-2000).]

[Ray Bell]

Their engine and tyre budgets would undoubtedly been much higher. But the budgets only reflect what has to be spent to get the most out of that item, and so the most out of the car... F5000s were cheaper to build and run, and thus required less money to run at their best.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[ZippyD]

Brent Lunger!!!!!!! You have to be kidding?
If there was a more talent-less driver around I'd like to know. His claim to fame was putting Lauda closer to his maker by T-boning him at the ring. Of all the good American drivers that were around at the time I never understood how he got into F1.
Disgracefull!!!!!

------------------
"Hugo, have you ever tried Ouzzo?"
"Madame I have tried everything."
"Well last night I had Ouzzo with some Greeks. Allot of Ouzzo."
"And what was you husband doing when all this Greek and Ouzzo business was going on?"
"The same thing he's always doing the night before a race; trying to sleep."

[John Cross]

1973 Race of Champions:

The grid was as follows:

1. Beltoise BRM P160 1:21.1 (100 bottles champers!)
2. Lauda BRM P160 1:21.9
3. Schuppan BRM P160 1:22.2
4. Scheckter McLaren M19 1:22.6 (last outing)
5. Hailwood Surtees TS14 1:22.7
6. Peterson Lotus 72 1:22.7
7. Fittipaldi Lotus 72 1:23.1
8. Gethin Chevron B24 1:23.9
Hulme McLaren M23 1:24.0
Ganley Iso FX3B 1:24.2
Hunt Surtees TS9B 1:24.8 (F1 debut)

The BRMs had special demon batch of Firestones, hence their speed. The Lotus 72s had wider front suspension in practise, but went back to narrow track for the race. I'm not sure of the positions after Gethin, hence the blanks. Gethin did pretty well really.

The race was quite eventful, shall we say! From the start, Beltoise led from Peterson, Lauda, Fittipaldi (penalised for a jumped start) and Schuppan. Scheckter was last, having cooked his clutch. Fittipaldi retired on lap 2, then on lap 5 Peterson took the lead. On lap 8 Watson crashed and broke his legs, then Ganley was out on lap 13 with a broken wheel. On lap 19 Peterson retired and the order was: Beltoise, Hailwood, Schuppan, Hulme, Scheckter, Gethin, Hunt.

Then Scheckter span and Beltoise changed his tyres, so it was Hailwood, Hulme, Schuppan, Gethin, Hunt, Beltoise. On lap 27, Schuppan crashed out, on lap 30 Lauda retired, lap 36 saw Hailwood's suspension break and Beltoise stop for another tyre. It was now Hulme, Gethin, Hunt, Trimmer.

Then Hulme's clutch went and on the last lap Gethin went past at Paddock, while Hunt was half a length behind Hulme at the flag.

Obviously, Gethin was a trifle lucky (!) but it was rather embarrassing for the F1 guys. And Brands Hatch surely favoured the F1 cars. The Autocourse report does not mention the weather, so I presume it must have been dry.

A few weeks later Hobbs did a practise lap of 1:17.5 at Silverstone in his Lola T330 against an F1 best of 1:16.4 (Fittipaldi, Lotus 72). Pretty close - I wonder what sort of time Fittipaldi would have done in the Lola?

------------------
I'll be back...

[Huw Jenjin]

It is not fair to brand Brett lunger as talentless. Rich yes, but never rich enough to get in a works car. Those Chesterfield McLarens and Surtees would have been slow with anyone driving.
The person that put Niki close to death was the man himself when he clipped a kerb. Lunger had the misfortune to hit him on the rebound. Lunger also selflessly pulled Lauda out of the car with the help of others (Ertl?).
Back to F5000s. They were brilliant value for money, and gave great racing, and great noises.
It would be good to have a similar thing today, using stock block 4 litres, just think you could have Merc,Jag,BMW, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, ferrari and so on.

[BRG]

Sounds worryingly like IRL, Huw!!

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Huw Jenjin]

did i just pull a Homer?
I have to admit to not studying IRL. Are stock block 4 litres the IRL formula?
If so bring it to Europe and Asia,to race on circuits with twisty bits.