16 replies to this topic

[RTH]

Following the torrential rainfall centred on the Cumbrian town of Cockermouth ,14 inches of rain fell in just 24 hours last Friday where the rivers of Cocker and Derwent meet, a vast area became flooded to a depth of 8 feet, from our perspective having seen the enormous amounts of destruction caused by the floods, with 11 bridges either condemed or washed away, you have to wonder how this has affected Ford.

Ford's new era rally headquarters historically sited at Boreham in Essex ,were set up in Malcolm Wilson's home town of Cockermouth and former mental hospital Dovenby Hall was purchased and the walled garden had a gigantic new factory facility built in the grounds, now some 10 years ago.

Dovenby is to the north west of the town. I wonder if we have anyone living in or near the area or knows if the Ford facility has been in any way damaged
You can see aerial pictures here of Dovenby Hall and the factory.

http://www.visitcumb...dovenbyhall.htm


Ford M-Sport

http://www.m-sport.c...venby-hall.html

Ford History in Rallying

http://www.m-sport.c...n_rallying.html

Edited by RTH, 23 November 2009 - 08:07.

[mikeC]

Dovenby is about 60 meters higher than Cockermouth, so unless there is very localised flooding it should be OK

[RS2000]

Elsewhere someone said the facility was not directly affected but the homes of several employees are.

I guess the thread title is not really "nostalgia" so perhaps questions should be asked: Were Ford right to contract out their official rally team to the lowest tenderer (price directly related to locating at the opposite end of the country)? Has it really achieved the success its long involvement warrants? Did it ever achieve the rally success its involvement warranted when run in house (Escort domination was confined to UK forests and does only one World Championship in that era directly reflect the comparatively low budget)? Perception is that Ford was a big rally spender but reality is that it wasn't and its organisation in the field was mostly not as legendary as many now think (and was often a shambles compared to BMC)

Edited by RS2000, 23 November 2009 - 15:17.

[Derwent Motorsport]

I think RS2000 is rather wide of the mark.
In answer to the question posed. Dovenby Hall is a few miles north of Cockermouth and a great deal higher. I live only a few miles away and as far as I know everything is going well. I am sure there will be some of the workers affected, the areas near the river is full of flats where some of the younger single M Sport employees live. Our town is severely damaged with 90% of the shops, banks, hotels etc out of action for a long time to come I fear.

I am not sure what RS2000 knows about rallying, perhaps not much from what he says, but M Sport have two manufacturers championships under their belt in recent years and if Citroen did not have Loeb, they would have won several drivers titles in the past ten years. The facility is superb, far better than say Prodrive, and of course Malcolm owns Greystoke forest which is used for testing. yes, overall costs will be better up here but that does not mean the quality of what happens here is any worse.

[RS2000]

No doubt "Derwent Motorsport" will explain exactly how an answer saying exactly what he is now saying is "wide of the mark". Is it not true that the facility is not directly affected but some employees homes are - it's what he is saying too!

Methinks his real problem might be that, for some reason, he doesn't like even the suggestion (implied later in questions) that Ford may have never punched its weight in rallying. He should read what's actually written. This is not "Racing Comments" "fanboy" section. Questions are posed for informed debate and should involve nostalgia.
I'm not sure what "Derwent Motorsport" "knows about rallying" history. "Perhaps not much from what he says". Some of us were there...

Edited by RS2000, 23 November 2009 - 15:57.

[RTH]

I was certainly surprised and disappointed when Ford let the official works rally operation which had given them such good publicity and had enhanced the image of the mass market products over about 40 years go out of house to a private operation at the other end of the country.For me there is always some loss of credibility when a car makers racing department is run by someone else remotely located. ( rather like the new Lotus Team for F1)

Ford of Britain was synonymous with a ring of plants in Essex and the old Boreham airfield and former racing circuit from the 1950s was well known and respected as the works competition factory and test track.
Whatever the actual quality of the operation , the image to the rally follower was always good.Small and medium range Ford cars have dominated the top positions in the car sales charts for at least the last 40 years.

Compared to the rally result achievements of Mitsubishi, Subaru,Peugeot and Citroen over the last couple of decades, I think most would have expected a bit more from Ford in recent times, given that the Cockermouth facility was large scale and evidently a big investment for Ford.

Edited by RTH, 23 November 2009 - 17:29.

[Derwent Motorsport]

OK RS2000. I've been in motorsport for some 40 years as an organiser and competitor. If you want a short CV. I am secretary of the largest motor club in the North. In rallying, I organised the first single venuue rally, the first single venue forest rally, the first rally won by Malcolm Wilson, the first forest rally won by Colin McRae. I did work out I have organised, or been part of the team that organised some 120 rallies, road, stage and more recently historic. I also drove or navigated on many rallied from the seventies to nineties. I was very much involved with the RAC Rally for 20 odd years until it stopped heading North. I also write for local and national publications. In more recent years I have had some success in sprints and hill climbs and now do a bit of historic racing in the Equipe GTS series.
Yes, I do know about rallying!

[john aston]

OK RS2000. I've been in motorsport for some 40 years as an organiser and competitor. If you want a short CV. I am secretary of the largest motor club in the North. In rallying, I organised the first single venuue rally, the first single venue forest rally, the first rally won by Malcolm Wilson, the first forest rally won by Colin McRae. I did work out I have organised, or been part of the team that organised some 120 rallies, road, stage and more recently historic. I also drove or navigated on many rallied from the seventies to nineties. I was very much involved with the RAC Rally for 20 odd years until it stopped heading North. I also write for local and national publications. In more recent years I have had some success in sprints and hill climbs and now do a bit of historic racing in the Equipe GTS series.
Yes, I do know about rallying!

I think the above response is known in some circles as p**ing on someone's strawberries. Not sure what the issue is in locating a rally team in a part of the country steeped in rallying folklore and with a pukka special stage down the road.I know Boreham had an airfield but.....
No credentials to match above - saw Rac first in 1969 , would not cross road to watch WRC in current format and for many years my annual rally treat is Malcolm Wilson rally in March .

[RTH]

The pictures from Cumbria of the damage is quite shocking, early estimates are in excess of £100M. ( probably be vastly more than that )

A further 4 inches of rain are already on the way to the region for tomorrow and rain is also forecast for Wednesday and Thursday.
Clearly repairs will take several years.
Road and civil engineering repairs in this country is now so desperately slow and poorly executed , the people inside the triangle of Workington, Maryport and Cockermouth clearly have years of misery in front of them. Several thousand acres of farmland are still under water in the area, previous 5 minute journeys, because the bridges are all gone now taking 2 hours by massive road detours.
Even if the Ford premises are not directly damaged clearly road links and other services will now be much more difficult for people working there and getting in supplies etc. Extreme weather it seems now can hit anyone at any time, it could be any of us next.

[RS2000]

I still don't understand "Derwent Motorsport" 's problem - and he still hasn't explained why he launched into a personally offensive tirade over a simple statement he then totally agreed with. Weird or what?

To discuss Ford more widely was a necessary attempt to get the thread on to the "nostalgia" theme that applies on here. Awful as the wider Cockermouth problems are, it's not motorsport nostalgia.
Most on here would probably agree Ford got value out of saloon car racing in the 60s. Whether Le Mans wins or the DFV were actually translatable into sales is for possible debate. Safari wins in cars recognisable by the public almost certainly were worthwhile but otherwise its rallying then was probably a bit of a disaster, compared to what it could and should have been, much of it from an organisational aspect. The 80s saga of "always too late" is no great record either.
The Boreham record towards the end was bad and contracting out, as racing nearly always was, came as a surprise but probably shouldn't have. It is open for debate, however much Derwent Motorsport thinks it shouldn't be, that the achievements since have reflected what such a major manufacturer should expect. I suspect that is all about trying to do it on the cheap. Where would Citroen be without Loeb? Probably still with the better car and winning with another top driver - but that's not nostalgia.

Oh, and tough luck Derwent Motorsport, your self-initiated p*ssing context is trumped by 43 years active in the sport as club and national driver and navigator/co-driver and regional championship event Clerk of the Course...and International competitor as driver and co-driver, 6 WRC events and many others in UK and overseas...
Can I suggest you'd find "Racing Comments" more to your current style?

Edited by RS2000, 23 November 2009 - 22:12.

[Derwent Motorsport]

What a sad person RS2000 is. Personally I can't see anyhting wrong with Ford's record over the years. Perhaps RS2000 should talk to Stuart Turner and Malcolm Wilson about his problem?
The thread was started by a concerned person regarding things up here in Cockermouth and we thank him for his concern. RS2000 then seemed to pour scorn on M Sport on the grounds that because it was up here is was thus "cheap". I assume that he has not been round M Sport? He will find that the Dovenby Hall complex is superb with state of the art facilities in a beautiful "estate" setting. There is Kirkbride airfield nearby for initial setting up of the cars and Greystoke forest for testing. I doubt if any other rally team has such great facilities.
Anyway we have rather more pressing matters to get on with up here than discuss the past with someone who obviously has a big chip on his shoulder.

[RTH]

Enough!

This thread was not started as a vehicle for you two to hurl insults at each other. This is very unpleasant to read.This is the last thing we want or expect on TNF.
As neither of you are prepared to sign your real name to any of the posts, then comparing rally records with each other is of no interest to the rest of us either.

As Cockermouth continues to dominate our TV screens, rightly, for the 5th day in a row as a motorsports forum we think about the Ford rally operation based there. I am glad to hear it is on higher ground and that as far as onlookers can tell it is undamaged. Ford has a very long and distinguished history in motor sport and this is of legitimate interest.
Doubtless they, along with everyone in that vicinity will now faced severe travel and supply difficulties on the roads for a very long time, due to the destruction of at least 6 vital bridges in the Cockermouth and Workington areas and closure of a great many more. To say nothing of chaos caused to employees own domestic arrangements, and the whole infrastructure of the greater area. Our thoughts and sympathies go to all those affected.

As news has brought the subject up it is of interest to review Fords competition history post war up to the move from Essex and a comparison with what has been achieved in the last 10 years based in Cumbria, which of course is also history.Perfectly fair that this should be discussed.

Because Malcolm Wilson is focused solely on rallying and effectively the Ford Competitions department has been devolved to him, is Ford Motor Co. UK involved now in any other form of motorsport as historically it always has been? I cannot think of anything else immediately, which is rather a shame, giving their long and valuable participation in a whole range of diverse motor sport disciplines.

Edited by RTH, 24 November 2009 - 16:34.

[glyn parham]

Enough!

This thread was not started as a vehicle for you two to hurl insults at each other. This is very unpleasant to read.This is the last thing we want or expect on TNF.
As neither of you are prepared to sign your real name to any of the posts, then comparing rally records with each other is of no interest to the rest of us either.

As Cockermouth continues to dominate our TV screens, rightly, for the 5th day in a row as a motorsports forum we think about the Ford rally operation based there. I am glad to hear it is on higher ground and that as far as onlookers can tell it is undamaged. Ford has a very long and distinguished history in motor sport and this is of legitimate interest.
Doubtless they, along with everyone in that vicinity will now faced severe travel and supply difficulties on the roads for a very long time, due to the destruction of at least 6 vital bridges and closure of a great many more. To say nothing of chaos caused to employees own domestic arrangements, and the whole infrastructure of the greater area. Our thoughts and sympathies go to all those affected.

As news has brought the subject up it is of interest to review Fords competition history post war up to the move from Essex and a comparison with what has been achieved in the last 10 years based in Cumbria, which of course is also history.

Because Malcolm Wilson is focused solely on rallying and effectively the Ford Competitions department has been devolved to him, is Ford Motor Co. UK involved now in any other form of motorsport as historically it always has been? I cannot think of anything else immediately, which is rather a shame.

Well said Richard.

Glyn

[Derwent Motorsport]

We thank you for your good wishes. Obviously we are all very stressed with what is happening so having slurrs posted is likely to breed ill feeding. M Sport is a major local employers here and Malcolm is a Cumbrian Ambassador.
The current situation is that two bridges are down. A few others are closed subject to being inspected but hopefully they will be open later in the week as the water goes down.
We look forward to you all supporting the Malcolm Wilson Rally in Cockermouth in March.
Thanks
Graeme Forrester

[RS2000]

I refer to my earlier question. This bizarre individual made an offensive response to a simple statement of fact regarding the extent of the flooding I made in answer to the first poster on the thread - a statement of fact he then confirmed he agreed with! He has not explained why he was offensive.
I for one remain bemused. I can only believe he did not read my post properly and must surely have reacted to something he wrongly thought he read. Blinded because he didn't like the simple sort of subsequent wider question, the sort of question we frequently pose here and one I posed to help the first poster out of what was really a non-nostalgia post? No one should have to suffer that "Racing Comments" nonsense here.
So please direct your comments appropriately and kindly do not include me in implications of starting such nonsense or not being allowed to defend against it.

Just as someone posted recently that the widely-acknowledged adoration of Fangio and Clark might be open to some questions, the fairly widely-held view (ask the likes of Vic Eford) that Ford's rally performance doesn't stand comparison with some contemporaries,
or its perceived reputation, can be posed.
This very strange poster is now ignored on my part so nothing further will be there for me to read.

Edited by RS2000, 25 November 2009 - 23:54.

[Derwent Motorsport]

All I can say to RS2000 is what a load of rubbish! At least I was man enough to post my name as a respected event organiser etc. Why he he should consider me to be "very strange" I do not know.
Perhaps we can ask who RS2000 is?

[David Force]

Ford transformed it's image when it went rallying and whether the cars have been prepared on a wind swept airfield in the South or a glorious forest setting in the North doesn't really matter. For my money Malcolm and his Northern guys are absolutely spot on for a rally team.

In fact most of the teams are some form of 'satellite' operation and probably always have been to a large extent. Browning, Turner, O'Dell etc all ran their own operations even if on occasions they were within the factory gates !

The Blue Oval had a bargain with the dear old DFV, but nobody called it a Ford. They won championships with Benetton and it was a well kept secret. Then Stewart and Jaguar... for all their investment in F1 they achieved ziltch recognition whilst in rallying it must have been a fantastic return for, dare I hazard a guess, much less money ?

Knowing Malcolm and how proud he is of his own heritage I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is helping the locals in some way and perhaps there will be some campaign for them through the rally team, as with Trulli and the Italian earthquake victims..

.

Edited by David Force, 26 November 2009 - 17:25.