24 replies to this topic

[Haggis 2]

Does anyone know of this car. It is Don O'Sullivan at Caversham Western Australia in 1968, and I believe it is a BT21 with a 2.5 Coventry Climax engine. The car was not retained for long by Don as he joined the Can AM style sports car series in Oz then the F5000 circus shortly after. It is believed the car returned to GB at the end on '68 or thereabouts. Any info would be highly prized.



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Brendon Hagarty

Edited by Haggis 2, 29 November 2009 - 09:42.

[Terry Walker]

I found the answer in the March 1968 Race Programme I just happened to have on my desk (no, seriously, I did):

No Car Driver Cap Color

1 Repco Brabham Don O'Sullivan 2495cc blue/yellow

In the same race, Gordon Stephenson in the Tasman Cooper, also 2495 cc.

Edited by Terry Walker, 29 November 2009 - 14:10.

[Ray Bell]

I've got to say, I don't remember this car!

And wasn't the BT21 a F2 style of car?

[David McKinney]

Elsewhere I've seen reference to O'Sullivan in a BT23 (F2 style of car) with 2.5 Climax in 1968

[Gordon Graham]

My memory is that O'Sullivan bought the Brabham in the UK, less engine, after it had been run in F2 (where it might have been driven by either Chris Irwin or Chris Lambert) He fitted an engine from one of his Coopers (having just sold the T70 to Gordon Stephenson). I'd always assumed this was the car later used in WA by Neil Rear, (and Terry's book says so) though this clashes with information I've recently seen about another Brabham.

[BT 35-8]

Neil Rear's car was as far as I know the ex Bob Illich BT21B / AM 283 that Bob bought back with
him complete with Cosworth SCB 1600cc from the U.K. after working at Brabhams .

Bryan Miller.

[Cirrus]

Elsewhere I've seen reference to O'Sullivan in a BT23 (F2 style of car) with 2.5 Climax in 1968

The car in the first post has BT21, rather than 23 front suspension.

[lustigson]

Great picture, that is!

[Haggis 2]

[quote name='lustigson' post='4019664' date='Nov 30 2009, 11:33']Great picture, that is![/quote]

The answer is.....

[Quote]Date Thu May 1 2003 22:12
Author TED WALKER (Ted@Ferret1.co.uk)

Bryan Thanks for that its BT21-30 not 21B -30that interest me.It ran as an F2 car in the UK in 67 with an FVA .It was supposed to have been sold via Frank Williams to O Sullivan.I have tracked it down to the UK in a dismantled state minus engine and box [End Quote]

From the Brabham Owners Register forum. The car was originally 1600 FVA but bought as a rolling chassis and fitted with one of Don's 2.5 Climax engines. It is now back in UK, last recorded as bieng dismantled. According to the register it was a special BT21 with some additional features which made it different from most other B21s. It was sold to Don via Frank Williams according to the register. My original belief was that it was a BT 21 but doubt was raised by another poster on the Speedwest.net forum.

Neill Rear's original car was a BT16 Climax 2.5, and it's history is documented here: http://www.oldtimerc.../racecar10.html

He later bought Ilich's BT21 when Bob retired from racing. This car then passed through serveral owners in WA before being severely damaged in a crash into the old pit lane armco at the top of the hill. It was later rebuilt by Bill McCrorie (quite magnificently) and last heard was residing with another owner in Canberra.

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Brendon Hagarty

Edited by Haggis 2, 30 November 2009 - 10:56.

[Haggis 2]

My memory is that O'Sullivan bought the Brabham in the UK, less engine, after it had been run in F2 (where it might have been driven by either Chris Irwin or Chris Lambert) He fitted an engine from one of his Coopers (having just sold the T70 to Gordon Stephenson). I'd always assumed this was the car later used in WA by Neil Rear, (and Terry's book says so) though this clashes with information I've recently seen about another Brabham.

Don did not sell the T70 to Gordon Stephenson (but Gordon did drive it at least once at Caversham, as well as one of Don's Cooper Lowlines), he owned it well into the 70s. It was later campaigned by Howie Sangster and morphed into the McLaren LT170 (McLola) by fitting an M8 body to the T70. Would love to know where this car ended up.......
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Brendon Hagarty

[Terry Walker]

O'Sullivan sold a Cooper Climax to Gordon Stephenson, which is probably where the confusion arises. I think the Stephenson Cooper was supported by Cecchele Motors.

[Haggis 2]

O'Sullivan sold a Cooper Climax to Gordon Stephenson, which is probably where the confusion arises. I think the Stephenson Cooper was supported by Cecchele Motors.

Correct as usual Terry....

[Team Result]

It was later campaigned by Howie Sangster and morphed into the McLaren LT170 (McLola) by fitting an M8 body to the T70. Would love to know where this car ended up.......
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Brendon Hagarty

IIRC, bought and brought to Queensland by Barry Singleton who then moved on to F5000 and sold it to John Wharton who crashed it heavily at Lakeside before his first race. The remains were bought by Wayne Davidson who rebuilt it and raced it at Lakeside several times. Some current Qld residents might no where it ended up after that.

[Gordon Graham]

When I said O'Sullivan sold the T70 to Stephenson, I of course meant the Cooper T70, not the Lola. I waved flags at the Cooper a handful of times, when it was in Stephenson's (or Cechele's) white paintwork.

[Haggis 2]

When I said O'Sullivan sold the T70 to Stephenson, I of course meant the Cooper T70, not the Lola. I waved flags at the Cooper a handful of times, when it was in Stephenson's (or Cechele's) white paintwork.

My apoplogies Gordon, I always think Lola when T70 is mentioned in context with don O'Sullivan. Would have been logical to assume Cooper T70 in this thread.
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Brendon Hagarty

[haggis]

The McLola was clothed in McLaren M12 bodywork, not M8. This appears to be a common misconception.

[Adam Berryman]

Correct as usual Terry....

Guys, I have the original log book for the T70 which lists the car being sold from F D O'Sullivan to Gordon Stephenson on 12 Feb 1968. No mention of F Ceccele but I did have this reference in other notes.

Adam Berryman

[Allen Brown]

The answer is.....

Date Thu May 1 2003 22:12
Author TED WALKER (Ted@Ferret1.co.uk)

Bryan Thanks for that its BT21-30 not 21B -30that interest me.It ran as an F2 car in the UK in 67 with an FVA .It was supposed to have been sold via Frank Williams to O Sullivan.I have tracked it down to the UK in a dismantled state minus engine and box

From the Brabham Owners Register forum. The car was originally 1600 FVA but bought as a rolling chassis and fitted with one of Don's 2.5 Climax engines. It is now back in UK, last recorded as bieng dismantled. According to the register it was a special BT21 with some additional features which made it different from most other B21s. It was sold to Don via Frank Williams according to the register. My original belief was that it was a BT 21 but doubt was raised by another poster on the Speedwest.net forum.

Neill Rear's original car was a BT16 Climax 2.5, and it's history is documented here: http://www.oldtimerc.../racecar10.html

He later bought Ilich's BT21 when Bob retired from racing. This car then passed through serveral owners in WA before being severely damaged in a crash into the old pit lane armco at the top of the hill. It was later rebuilt by Bill McCrorie (quite magnificently) and last heard was residing with another owner in Canberra.

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Brendon Hagarty

Very interesting. Brabham BT21-30 was a BT21 built with BT23 bits and a FVA engine for/by Alan McKechnie Racing and raced by Chris Lambert in F2 and the odd libre race in 1967. According to Chris Townsend's research, the car was badly damaged in a trailer accident in 1968, and had at that point been replaced as Lambert’s F2 car by a BT23C. After Lambert's death, the car seems to pass to Dr Joseph Ehrlich who planned to run it in Formula Libre for Bev Bond/George Dixon. Possibly not sold, and maybe the car run for Roger Keele in F3 later in 1969 by Ehrlich. In then appears in 1971 as Johnny Dimsdale's Formula Atlantic car (described at the time as 'ex Lambert' or even 'ex Lambert BT21C').

So it must have gone to Australia and returned to the UK quite quickly. What's the earliest date it has been observed in Australia?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
.....So it must have gone to Australia and returned to the UK quite quickly. What's the earliest date it has been observed in Australia?

March 4, May 5, August 25 and September 29 seem to be the dates he ran it at Caversham.

[Chris Townsend]

Very interesting. Brabham BT21-30 was a BT21 built with BT23 bits and a FVA engine for/by Alan McKechnie Racing and raced by Chris Lambert in F2 and the odd libre race in 1967. According to Chris Townsend's research, the car was badly damaged in a trailer accident in 1968, and had at that point been replaced as Lambert’s F2 car by a BT23C. After Lambert's death, the car seems to pass to Dr Joseph Ehrlich who planned to run it in Formula Libre for Bev Bond/George Dixon. Possibly not sold, and maybe the car run for Roger Keele in F3 later in 1969 by Ehrlich. In then appears in 1971 as Johnny Dimsdale's Formula Atlantic car (described at the time as 'ex Lambert' or even 'ex Lambert BT21C').

So it must have gone to Australia and returned to the UK quite quickly. What's the earliest date it has been observed in Australia?

According to Motoring News 10.4.69 p. 17 the 'ex Lambert BT21' had been bought by Dr Ehrlich to run for Bev Bond and George Dixon. If it was the ex Lambert BT23 in which he was killed I think that might have been mentioned [though I do think the good Dr bought that wreck for parts and helped maintain an F3 car with it, originally built from the remains of a BT23; this car now restored as a BT23]
Ehrlich has a BT21 for sale with an FVA in it in Autosport in September 1969. However, it might be kept as Ehrlich has two F3 cars in 1969, the EMC and a BT21 driven by Roger Keele. Johnny Dimsdale's car in Atlantic/Libre in 1971 is described as 'ex Lambert BT21C' MN 1.7.71 p.10. Lambert didn't have a BT21C as far as we know, so I presume that's a reference to modifications to the car. Finally, Steve Wilkinson observes the chassis plate on the car of Spencer Elton at a hillclimb in 1973. Both Dimsdale and Spencer are still very much around, so we can probably do the maths between 1971 and 1973, and hopefully find out who Elton sold it to.
I have a photo of Dimsdale in this car, if it's any help

Edited by Chris Townsend, 16 December 2009 - 22:23.

[Allen Brown]

Chris, what's the date if the trailer accident? Is that late enough to rule out it being the car at Caversham on 4 Mar 1968?

[Haggis 2]

Chris, what's the date if the trailer accident? Is that late enough to rule out it being the car at Caversham on 4 Mar 1968?

Would have been in Australia from shortly before Mar '68 through to just after Sept '68.
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Brendon Hagarty

[Chris Townsend]

Would have been in Australia from shortly before Mar '68 through to just after Sept '68.
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Brendon Hagarty

I don't know the date of the trailer accident, I'm afraid. IIRC it was mentioned in passing in Motoring News. It could be that it even happened in Australia. I wouldn't have thought that a privateer like Lambert would have been prepared to leave the previous season's car lying around damaged, if the accident happened in 1967, or unsold, if the accident was in 1968. I would suggest that Lambert sold the car to Australia in early 68 or late 67, and bought his BT23C. The car raced in Australia, was damaged there, and came back to Ehrlich who repaired it and refitted it with an FVC.
[My hypothesis about Ehrlich buying the remains of Lambert's BT23C doesn't stand or fall on him buying the BT21 from Lambert's father at the same time, and it is only a hypothesis; it's possible that the Lambert BT23C was simply scrapped]

[jwharton]

IIRC, bought and brought to Queensland by Barry Singleton who then moved on to F5000 and sold it to John Wharton who crashed it heavily at Lakeside before his first race. The remains were bought by Wayne Davidson who rebuilt it and raced it at Lakeside several times. Some current Qld residents might no where it ended up after that.

The McLola was actually sold by Howie Sangster to Bill Maddox and that is who I bought it from. The accident was caused by a gearbox selection problem, but unfortunately I suffered a T3, T4 crush fracture and it put me in a brace for 9 months. Life then took a different direction. Just for historical correctness, the Lola Chassis No was LT72/38.

[Terry Walker]

I have seen a colour photo of the McLola (with windscreen and numberplates (!), in storage, covered in dust) in the massive Lola T70 book which was published a few years ago. Someone here must know the book.