14 replies to this topic

[GT Racing Online Magazine]

hi there,

With Raikkonen's imminent departure to WRC - I've started to look into the history of F1 drivers doing rally and their success. One driver mentioned above anyone else is perhaps naturally Jim Clark (even though many "in-the-know say Reutemann was a better rally driver if not for the fact that he wasn't British would have gonne down in history as such). Now I know wiki is not a reliable source but this paragraph is often quoted in F1 publications:


[Jim Clark] is remembered for his ability to drive and win in all types of cars and series, including a Lotus-Cortina, with which he won the 1964 British Touring Car Championship; IndyCar; NASCAR, driving a Ford Galaxie for the Holman Moody team; Rallying, where he took part in the 1966 RAC Rally of Great Britain in a Lotus Cortina and nearly won the event before crashing; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Clark

I've heard that this is based on a myth - that the Clark who "nearly won" was Roger Clark, not Jim - who did participated in the 1966 RAC rally (alongside Graham Hill and Vic Elford?), and that Jim could in fact not challenge drivers such as Timo Mäkinen, R.Clark and Bengt Söderström except for on a super special on the first day (Mäkinen was leading after day 1, Clark crashed out for the second time on day two (DNF) and Söderström eventually won in a Lotus Cortina). This is the impression I get from reading the overview of the 1966 RAC in "RAC Rally Action!: From the 60s, 70s and 80s" by Tony Gardiner, but of course he does not chronicle J.Clark's perfomance in-depth. Does anyone know on how many stages J.Clark clocked fastest times, and does anyone know how Graham Hill and Vic Elford managed in the rally?

thanks.

Edited by GT Racing Online Magazine, 30 November 2009 - 08:40.

[sterling49]

I do not have the details at hand at the moment, but I think you will find that Jim had a few fastest stage times .....in the forests.....and he put up many top ten stage times. I also saw the TV coverage of the day, IMHO ( I know I am a tad biased !) Jim could definitely, cut the mustard. He threw it off a few times also, but then, so did Ari and Stig, to find "their speed", Jim was on the pace

[Alan Cox]

There are numerous threads which have featuried this topic GT Racing, try Jim Clark/RAC Rally in the 'Search' facility and more info will come to light.

[RCH]

[quote name='GT Racing Online Magazine' post='4019528' date='Nov 30 2009, 08:27']hi there,

With Raikkonen's imminent departure to WRC - I've started to look into the history of F1 drivers doing rally and their success. One driver mentioned above anyone else is perhaps naturally Jim Clark (even though many "in-the-know say Reutemann was a better rally driver if not for the fact that he wasn't British would have gonne down in history as such). Now I know wiki is not a reliable source but this paragraph is often quoted in F1 publications:


[Jim Clark] is remembered for his ability to drive and win in all types of cars and series, including a Lotus-Cortina, with which he won the 1964 British Touring Car Championship; IndyCar; NASCAR, driving a Ford Galaxie for the Holman Moody team; Rallying, where he took part in the 1966 RAC Rally of Great Britain in a Lotus Cortina and nearly won the event before crashing; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Clark

I've heard that this is based on a myth - that the Clark who "nearly won" was Roger Clark, not Jim - who did participated in the 1966 RAC rally (alongside Graham Hill and Vic Elford?), and that Jim could in fact not challenge drivers such as Timo Mäkinen, R.Clark and Bengt Söderström except for on a super special on the first day (Mäkinen was leading after day 1, Clark crashed out for the second time on day two (DNF) and Söderström eventually won in a Lotus Cortina). This is the impression I get from reading the overview of the 1966 RAC in "RAC Rally Action!: From the 60s, 70s and 80s" by Tony Gardiner, but of course he does not chronicle J.Clark's perfomance in-depth. Does anyone know on how many stages J.Clark clocked fastest times, and does anyone know how Graham Hill and Vic Elford managed in the rally?

Nearly won is a bit of an exageration but Jim Clark put up a number of top ten stage times on the 1966 RAC before retiring. Roger Clark retired early but had been quicker in the early stages. Jim Clark put in a blistering performance on what was a one-off rally appearance at that stage in his career although Clark ®, Makinen, Soderstrom and one or two others were faster. It was a fine drive by a hugely talented driver but perhaps it was based on a "nothing to lose, let's go flat out from the beginning" attitude?

I don't think Graham Hill was particularly happy in a Mini although he does have a top ten finish in the Monte to his name. Vic Elford of course was first and foremost a rally driver.

As a teenager at the time I was always a Graham Hill man, one HAD to be one or the other! Now however I have come to realise how talented Jimmy was. However having said that I tend to wonder why he is always put forward as an example of the versatility of drivers at the time. Not that he wasn't versatile but so were Hill. Moss, Surtees, Ireland and most of all perhaps Salvadori. It was just a fact of life of racing in the '50's/60's and the best drivers would always perform well in any discipline.

Oops, edited to add I don't know how my bit got mixed up with GT racing' bit? If you're wondering mine starts with "nearly won..."

Edited by RCH, 30 November 2009 - 10:58.

[Terry Walker]

Given that it was a one-off, and Jim Clark hadn't done much, if any, forest stage rallying before, it was a pretty bloody amazing performance.

[Tim Murray]

Oops, edited to add I don't know how my bit got mixed up with GT racing' bit? If you're wondering mine starts with "nearly won..."

You've somehow managed to lose the end-of-quote thingummy, which looks like this:

[/quote]

at the end of that quoted section.

RS2000 listed some of the early stage times in this post in the NVW241C thread

[GT Racing Online Magazine]

RS2000 listed some of the early stage times in this post in the NVW241C thread

Thank you for that link - it was exactly what I had been looking for - I thought Brian Melia was Roger Clark's codriver - but here it's Jim Clark with Melia and R.Clark with Porter, right?

I guess there is no site on the internet that as information of RAC stages from 1966, it would be interesting to know tarmac vs. gravel stages?

[simonlewisbooks]

Given the title of this thread - there doesn't seem to be any kind of 'myth' here...
Jimmy was fast and very impressive in an unfamiliar environment.

No deviation at all from the long-perpetuated story, surely?

Now if it's myths you want how about " global warming" ......

[Tim Murray]

- but here it's Jim Clark with Melia and R.Clark with Porter, right?

Yes indeed.

[Peter Darley]

Yes indeed.

Fot those of you who have "Jim Clark - Life at Team Lotus" , turn to page 251

[GT Racing Online Magazine]

Given the title of this thread - there doesn't seem to be any kind of 'myth' here...
Jimmy was fast and very impressive in an unfamiliar environment.

Absolutely I was more interested in knowing if he actually was close to winning the rally - and that was a bit of a myth or wikisation of history ('nearly won the event before crashing') the more I look at the information available - doesn't mean he wasn't fast and impressive (for the record he is my all time favourite F1 driver)

Edited by GT Racing Online Magazine, 30 November 2009 - 16:31.

[Doug Nye]

I recall Brian Melia telling me that before the Rally, as far as he was concerned, the jury was out on how Jimmy would shape up in the forests. He then added that he should have had no doubts. There was one particular corner which he called late, and he described his astonishment as Jimmy reacted absolutely instantaneously to the late call, and almost before the words were out of Brian's mouth the car was already halfway through being set up for the corner and JC was back on the power and going for it...

DCN

[sterling49]

Brilliant Doug....and that is just what we expected of Jim

[Chezrome]

Given the title of this thread - there doesn't seem to be any kind of 'myth' here...
Jimmy was fast and very impressive in an unfamiliar environment.

No deviation at all from the long-perpetuated story, surely?

Now if it's myths you want how about " global warming" ......

I think it was a fair question from the thread starter. There's a lot of stuff in books taken for 'truths' that are not substantiated.

For example: for years I believed Ronnie Peterson was the victim of teamorders at Lotus and was the faster of the two drivers in 1978. I discovered - thanks to the internet and databases like Forix - I had just read the wrong books...

[Graham Gauld]

I recall Brian Melia telling me that before the Rally, as far as he was concerned, the jury was out on how Jimmy would shape up in the forests. He then added that he should have had no doubts. There was one particular corner which he called late, and he described his astonishment as Jimmy reacted absolutely instantaneously to the late call, and almost before the words were out of Brian's mouth the car was already halfway through being set up for the corner and JC was back on the power and going for it...

DCN

To add to that I had breakfast with Jim and Brian on the morning after the start. He remarked that in the early special stages he felt Brian would have been quicker than him on the stages which was a typical modest remark. Many forget that Brian Melia was a very fast and competent rally driver in his own right.