22 replies to this topic

[Racer.Demon]

DD's Hall of Fame made me think about what for me are the best criteria to judge drivers on.

Bare statistics and accomplishment are all alright of course, and should not be overlooked, but for me personally my mind will drift back to the single giant-killing performances that saw victory taken by a driver who was able to more than compensate the shortcomings of his mount against much better equipped opposition.

For me these are the classic wins, the ones which beforehand seemed as unlikely as Gilles conceding defeat. If I were to create a Grand Prix Hall of Fame, it would mainly constitute of unbelievable wins - and the drivers responsible for them.

Here are just a few of the best against-all-odds Grand Prix wins:

- 1902 Paris-Vienna: Marcel Renault's quick little 5-litre Renault beating all the 14-litre Panhards could throw at him

- 1903 Paris-Madrid: Fernand Gabriel coming through the carnage to literally survive that first leg, after having started 82nd and handling a Mors with a serious weight problem - still he left the entire field in a trail of blood and dust

- 1921 French GP: Indy star Jimmy Murphy conquering Le Mans in his Duesenberg after being carried to his car because of the broken ribs he sustained during a practice crash

- 1931 Eifelrennen: Caracciola doing the impossible in the rain in a fat, ageing SSK against the leading Alfas and Bugattis

- 1934 French GP: Chiron in an outdated P3 outfoxing Mercedes and Auto Union

- 1935 German GP: perhaps the best of them all, Nuvolari in his P3 getting the upper hand of a legion of Silberpfeile

- 1957 German GP: Fangio taking an unearthly victory in his fourth-generation 250F, beating a new generation of fast young Brits in modern machinery

- 1958 Argentine GP: Moss on a no-stopper in an underpowered Walker Cooper on completely shot tyres beating the Ferraris in a landmark victory by a rear-engined car

- 1961 Monaco GP: him again, yet again showing Maranello the way in Walker's Lotus

- 1970 Spanish GP: Stewart overlooking the fact he only has the mediocre March 701 at his possession and wins

- 1977 Austrian GP: Alan Jones in a mere Shadow taming the opposition

- 1978 International Trophy: Keke Rosberg winning the wettest race of the decade in a Theodore which was hazardous enough to drive with dry-weather settings

- 1981 Spanish GP: Villeneuve's "tractor" leading a train of cars to the finish

- 1982 Long Beach GP: on just his third comeback race Niki Lauda comes through the field from a terrible grid position to get one over the turbos

- 1982 Las Vegas GP/1983 Detroit GP: Michele 'David' Alboreto doing some Goliath-killing in his atmo Tyrrell.

And these are just the ones I can come up with from the top of my head. They would certainly be included in my "Giant-killing performances Hall of Fame". Anyone care to add other GPs to it?

Cheers,
R.D

[Ray Bell]

There's a lot more to be found in the pile of 'what might have beens' - Sommer at Spa in the Lago Talbot standing out.
I don't think the 81 Spanish belongs on this list, by the way, it being a brute force and ignorance victory in my view.
Bellof and Senna's fight to the finish at Monaco might have been nice, and Levegh at Le Mans in 52 as well. Moss and Collins coming back in the Targa of 55 was a worthy effort after the off Moss had in the first stint ruined their chances - with the World Title riding on their success, too.
Locally we had the most exceptional example of this in Peter Hopwood. For several years he raced a competition Elan in Prod Sports agains such things as Bolwells and Porsche 930s. He actually took out two wins outright on circuits more suited to his car, which was something to see, but the best was yet to come.
It was the 1998 Bathurst 2-litre meeting, where there was a 50th anniversary race for all kinds of Healeys. Peter had started out in a 100/6, so an invitation to drive a converted road car at this race appealed to him.
He personally guided and contributed to the preparation of the car, which had to be done to a tight budget. The greatest concentration of effort was on the suspension, but the engine got some Webers even though they gave the same power as the SUs on the dyno - Peter reckoned there was an edge in driveability.
Once at Bathurst the runners saw first hand what they were up against. Denis Welch and his car out from England, with everything that money and experience could put into the car. It was powerful and well equipped in every other way.
Peter, as many were to learn over the years, was a master tactician. His background was actually in yacht racing, so that figures.
He laid down his plan - sit with the bunch following Welch and not lose touch, with everything to hinge on a final lap plot that defied imagination.
On cue he lunged under Welch over the Skyline and skated away down the esses. Welch was dumbfounded, saying later that he was watching to see when and where he crashed, not 'if'.
The esses, however, are followed by the long downhill Conrod Straight, where Welch went by perhaps 30mph faster than the borrowed car could go. Was it all over?
By no means, the passing move over the top of the mountain was simply so Peter could be close enough to rocket by under brakes into the Chase, then with only the final corner to go he could hold the Brit out and win.
It was all to plan as he went for the outside line under brakes and shot back into the lead, but in this all-or-nothing attempt there was peril.
Peter later told me that there was oil down on that line, someone else said it was the pain that did it. Peter spun and lost the race.
The whole story takes on new meaning when you learn that he drove the race having to reach down and lift his knee to put his foot on the clutch pedal, the muscles that did this job normally having been removed as part of his ongoing cancer operations.
This was Peter Hopwood's last race. Exactly a year later he had his spinal cord severed so he could go off the drugs for a while, to help him live just a little longer. His doctor said he didn't know 'how he drove that race with so many body parts missing.'
Sorry to spoil your thread, but all else is nothing after that...

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Ray Bell]

With such a spread out place as the Nurburgring, it was no wonder F2 cars were invited to run concurrently with the German GP - and that was how Jacky Ickx came to notice in a Matra... got into fourth place or something like that.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Racer.Demon]

Ray: ah yes, Sommer at Spa - without a doubt the prime example of 'what could have been'! I agree the list would be a lot longer if a giant-killing performance didn't necessarily result in victory. But why not? Then I would also add Bellof to the list. And many more...

BTW, a wonderful story about Mr. Hopwood. I absolutely agree: you can't beat *that*!

Cheers,
R.D

[Racer.Demon]

Ickx was actually third in qualifying!

Come to think of it: funny how the erstwhile qualifying wonder came to be the world's best endurance racer...

R.D

[Leif Snellman]

... and one race that definitely also belongs to the list is Pau 1938 won by Dreyfus in a Delahaye.

------------------
Leif Snellman
The Golden Era of Grand Prix Racing
http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman

[Ray Bell]

Come on Lief, tell those of us who don't have the book all about it..

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Indian Chief]

Hungary 1997 : Hill overtakes Schumacher (on the road) in the humbleArrows and builds a 40second lead before the car fails him on the very last lap.

[Duane]

That's more for the Reader's Comments board, we avoid that kind of stuff over here.

Don, see what happens when you post on the other side!

[yahoo]

COME ON DAMON!!!!!!!!!

[Don Capps]

Ray,

Here is the 8W for the month that featured the Pau race: http://www.racer.dem...8w/8w-1099.html

////////////////

Duane, yeah, I know! But to many Over There, 1997 is Ancient History....

------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Racer.Demon]

Over There one does not speak of drivers who have - gulp - retired from the sport. Such dinosaurs you know.

So maybe Hungary '97 does belong over here.

[Huw Jenjin]

Peter Gethins two major victories in the Italian GP and The Race of champions in an F5000 were pretty giant killing. The Brands ROC has a number of them.
Does any body remember Alan Jones' Durex Surtees in the ROC, and John Watsons Matchbox Surtees or Derk Warwick's Toleman in the same race years later?
Watson's Penske in Austria would be another one, or Kojeima or Hasemi (I forget which) in the Jap GP on Dunlops?
Trulli and Panis have put on some great giant killers, as well as James Hunt in his first season with Surtees and March.

[BuzzingHornet]

Duane, I know that you don't want the BS from Readers Comments here but 'that kind of stuff' is relevant to this thread IMO... I was under the illusion that it was much less snobby over here..!

[BRG]

I think John Watson's win in the Maclaren MP4/1 at the USGP in Detroit 1982 is one.
I believe he qualified last and passed everyone on a street track that didn't favour overtaking and he had no power advantage (just a DFV like many of the others).

Another memorable performance was Keke Rosberg's win in the appalling Theodore TR1 at the Silverstone International Trophy race in 1978. Run in soaking weather, Rosberg drove a stormer against strong opposition. The car clearly handled like a supermarket trolley and only Rosberg's sheer car control kept it on the island. Watching him fling it from lock to lock through the Woodcote chicane like a rally driver, lap after lap, was a rare treat!

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[mtl'78]

Ray, why is Jarama '81 not a good example?

That was probably the mostexciting race I've ever seen! And what about GV being the first Monaco GP winner in a turbo, driving that piece of crap!

I know he had the fastest straight line speed, but Monaco and Jarama are extreemely twisty circuits. Jarama looks more like a go-kart track than an F1! I just thought those 2 (consecutive?) wins were the most incredible result I've ever seen. (of course I was 11-12 at the time...)

Sorry to harp on Gilles, but I always considered his glory to be exactly like the title of this thread, a Giant Killer.


Like my favorite one: 2 weeks after losing the WDC to Sheckter, due to team orders, in Monza, they were racing at Watkins Glenn. During the Friday session, which had horrible weather, JS set the pole and described the lap as having scared him stiff, the GV out to prove that he was faster than the champ, went out and claimed the pole by over 11 seconds! Too bad it was sunny on the Saturday and the times fell, because that would have been a record never matched!
Imagine, a laptime in the wet would be about 1:30? to be 11 seconds faster works out to be 12% faster. So by the 107% rule NOBODY ELSE WOULD HAVE MADE IT ONTO THE GRID!

Picture that. GV would have STILL mad it fun to watch ;)

[Huw Jenjin]

That was a great win by Keke Roberg, but hadn't somebody like Davina Galica in a hesketh 308E lead it at some point?

[Ray Bell]

Jarama was a perfect example of what you can do if you have power and poise. Just take the only good line around the corners and you've got a freight train behind you... and those days without pit stop strategies to upset things... sorry, that's the way I see it.
That one I saw on TV, the other I saw live. Piquet had the pace... to a point, then Jones blitzed him to the extent that he muffed it. The Williams then had the race in its pocket until a fuel pickup problem intervened.
The only good thing about Gilles winning was that I saw him win one, and I saw the crowd going mad, and if it's the only F1 race I ever see in Europe then it satisfies me that it was a Ferrari win in a place close enough to Italy to be infested with noisy Italians.
And they don't come within cooee of Hopwood's drive.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Felix Muelas]

Huw

Well, I assume your comment on Galica was intended to be a joke.
The answer is no, she never lead that race. The best position she held was sixth, on lap 10, just before crashing out.
Derek Daly inherited the lead from Stuck on that same lap 9, held it till the 12th, and then it was Rosberg and Fittipaldi, Keke producing one of those "legendary" drives that we are talking about. No mistakes...

Regards
Felix Muelas

[Ray Bell]

Harking back to 1981 Monaco, the attribute of Gilles' that shone through and actually won him the race was the old Moss idiom - don't ever give up.
Which also brings to mind Monaco 61 and poor Ginther being told to 'go faster' when he had been wringing the neck of the Ferrari for twenty or more laps trying to catch Moss. The supposition by Moss was that that would have taken the stuffing right out of him... So who was the giant killer there?
Moss in the underpowered car that handled best - or Ginther getting more out of the ill-handling Ferrari as he chased the genius at the peak of his career?
And then there was Moss at the Nurburgring in the same year.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Dennis David]

When you think of Caracciola and Mercedes underdog is not exactly the first thing that comes to mind but in 1931 at the Mille Miglia that was just the case…

The Wall Street crash of 1929 and subsequent depression forced Mercedes to temporarily abandon racing. Rudolf Caracciola could not imagine his career ending just as he was gaining prominence. In 1931 he was forced to contest the Mille Miglia as a private entrant. Mercedes would provide transportation and mechanical support in exchange for fifty percent of the prize money. For the race, their support team would consist of three men, a women and a car. The car was a SSKL, the L for leicht (light) that was specially built for them. Against this small band of privateers was the Alfa Romeo team, with a support staff of over 90 mechanics. Alfred Neubauer, the team manager would remark that he felt like "Napoleon before the Battle of Waterloo", but even Napoleon never had to face such long odds. Neubauer was able to convince two other mechanics to join them for the race but he would still be one man short for the minimum four refueling depots. He finally decided that the mechanic manning the first stop would have to race cross-country to the third site during the race. Against these four stops Alfa Romeo would have 17 fuel and repair depots spread along the course. Short - handed Caracciola would have to drive the entire race while a mechanic would be his passenger. After ten hours of driving and various minor problems they were in fourth place but the strain of the race was taking its toll on Caracciola. Exhausted he told his passenger that he felt that he must stop rather than risk someone else's life. Wilhelm Sebastian would here none of this. Hearing these brave words gave Caracciola new strength and he began to drive like a man possessed. Fritz Kumpf, the mechanic whose job it was to drive cross-country just arrived at the last stop before the white Mercedes. The morning came but the circuit was covered with a thick mist. Just ahead of Caracciola were the three leading Alfas driving three abreast. Each car had its headlines on and their combined resources helped light the way. Caracciola closed up behind the unaware drivers and when they came up to a sharp bend two of the cars spun off the road. Caracciola, able to see the danger, stepped on the accelerator and shot past the last startled Alfa Romeo. He was now in the lead. The last pitstop came and went. Twenty miles from the finish line they suffered a puncture. Jumping out of the car before he had even stopped they were able to replace the tire before any other car could overtake them. At 7:22 A.M. the lone Mercedes crossed the finish line and miraculously Caracciola was able to fight the long odds and claim the first victory for a foreigner in the Mille Miglia. He would be the last foreigner to claim victory until 1955.


------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Grand Prix History

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

[Witt]

Geez, it's been a long time since i last posted here...

If we are talking about Giant Killing performances, i think it's suprising that no-one has yet mentioned Nigel Mansell. This guy was absolutely awesome on his day, and here i'll list some days which i think are Giant killing performances.

Britain 86 - Beat Piquet in Piquet's car.
Britain 87 - Made up 30 seconds and completed the best overtaking move ever caught on film, IMO.
Hungary 89 - Started 12th on the grid and showed the two widely regarded best drivers of the time why they should always be checking their mirrors.

And they're like the only ones i can remember for now. He put in alot of good performances in lesser machinery for minor places too.

[Ray Bell]

back to the Mille Miglia -
Coincidentally, the second Mercedes victory STARTED at that same time - 7:22am!

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...