97 replies to this topic

[rallen]

I was reading an old race report from Watkins Glen in 1976 where Jackie Icks had his massive crash. Apparently Fittipaldi was right behind him and he said he heard the explosion above the sound of his engine and the earplugs he was wearing. Emmo says it was by far the worst crash he had ever seen and was convinced that Icks had been killed.
I have also heard before that the Spanish Grand Prix of 1969 – Jackie Stewart saw the effects of the Hill and Rindt crashes and went the whole race thinking his two friends were dead.

So I was thinking about these instances and the risks of F1 back then and the psychology of the drivers and marvelling (perhaps marvelling is not quite the right word!) at their ability to keep going and then I started to wonder about their lap times when these accidents happened (and just after) and although they kept going I was wondering if they slowed down slightly to reflect these instances – even subconsciously, to see if the crashes had any effect on them, either negatively or even positively.
Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have access to lap times for races with fatal accidents (even very serious ones which would – you would think would have an effect)
Or has anyone any other instances or anecdotes they could mention?

Edited by rallen, 02 December 2009 - 20:56.

[Vitesse2]

Didn't Fangio say that whenever he saw a serious accident he pressed on even harder because he knew everybody else would be easing off?

[alansart]

I thought Ickx crashed at Watkins Glen.

[rallen]

I thought Ickx crashed at Watkins Glen.

Your right sorry! don't know why I said Canada, I have ammend it now!

[Ray Bell]

Many drivers have said that they just put it out of their mind...

By the same token, I'd like to know what Buford would say on this subject, based on his previous comments. From memory, he's said that four of the drivers he started racing with died in the act, he simply didn't expect to survive himself.

[kayemod]

By the same token, I'd like to know what Buford would say on this subject.

Me too, I'd think that Christmas had come early...

[watkins]

Here are a couple of photos I took of Ickx's crash at Watkins Glen. If I remember correctly, he suffered broken ankles.

[rallen]

Many drivers have said that they just put it out of their mind...

I expect that they can after a while, even in the same race, but I would have thought that even for just a couple of laps it may show in their lap times.

Thanks for your comments guy's, appreciate the feedback. Also amazing pics Watkins. Ickx has had one lucky career when you look at all the shunts he has been in

[David Lawson]

I have also heard before that the Spanish Grand Prix of 1969 – Jackie Stewart saw the effects of the Hill and Rindt crashes and went the whole race thinking his two friends were dead.

I haven't checked back in my reference books but from memory I thought Hill helped to extricate Rindt after the crash, perhaps Stewart would have seen Hill and realised he was unharmed.

David

[rateus]

I haven't checked back in my reference books but from memory I thought Hill helped to extricate Rindt after the crash, perhaps Stewart would have seen Hill and realised he was unharmed.

I remember reading that what really got Jackie worried was the sight of Hill's car in the barriers (his crash was first) with Graham standing by his car, then driving past on the next lap and seeing Rindt's car in the barriers exactly where Hill had been standing, with various people clustered around the wreck.

[Bob Riebe]

Read the newest Motor Sport where Andretti and Gurney speak about such things.

Andretti loved the sprint cars but quit when he figured the odds; Gurney said he quit when death odds took away even a few single digit percentage desire to drive.

If they let that happen during a race, continued to drive that race, that is a sure recipe for disaster.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 03 December 2009 - 07:00.

[vc1954]

I was wondering if they slowed down slightly to reflect these instances – even subconsciously, to see if the crashes had any effect on them, either negatively or even positively.

Would only be the yellow flags that slowed them down.

[rwhitworth]

I remember reading that what really got Jackie worried was the sight of Hill's car in the barriers (his crash was first) with Graham standing by his car, then driving past on the next lap and seeing Rindt's car in the barriers exactly where Hill had been standing, with various people clustered around the wreck.

...and catching a glimpse of a marshal making a hand gesture, drawing one finger across his throat. Was that in an early Stewart biography? Or perhaps a Graham Hill biography? I definitely remember reading it somewhere.

[Chezrome]

Didn't Fangio say that whenever he saw a serious accident he pressed on even harder because he knew everybody else would be easing off?

Jean Pierre Sarti, actually...

[Jop Zwart]

Ickx has had one lucky career when you look at all the shunts he has been in

That reminds me of something. After the celebrations of Jacky Ickx's win at the 1972 German Grand Prix
at the Nürburgring, my father and I walked through the pitlane and we ran into Pascal Ickx
(Jacky's brother). We congratulated Pascal ofcourse and then I said to him "You must be so proud of your brother".
And he said "Ofcourse I am proud of my brother. But most of the time I am scared."

That is something you tend to forget. Especially in those years when motorracing was so dangerous, the family
and friends of the drivers must have been so afraid for their loved ones. Every race they must have gone through
agony. And so relieved when the race was over. A few days not to worry. Until the next race.

I never forgot those words of Pascal Ickx.

Jop.

[Les Dalton]

I remember the 1966 German Grands Prix at the Nubergring when we were standing near the Flugplatz, and Jackie Ickx tangled with the privateer John Taylor, who was driving a Brabham BRM, I think Ickx was in a Formula 2 car, there was an awful fire, and tragically John Taylor died a few hours later from the burns that he received in the crash.
That was not a very nice memory, made worse by the fact that we had had a few drinks with John Taylors mechanics a couple of nights earlier in a gasthaus in Ardenau, they had been driving past with the race car and saw our Army land Rovers parked up, and because the chief mechanic had been an Army mechanic with the REME, he decided to stop and come in for a chinwag.
I saw them again after John had died and they were completely devastated and in a state of shock.
Was any of our readers also at that race???
Les Dalton,
France.

Edited by Les Dalton, 03 December 2009 - 11:01.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by kayemod
Me too, I'd think that Christmas had come early...

December 24th, is it?

By e.mail from Buford
I had a premonition I would die in a racing car at Indianapolis. Since I actually stupidly believed I was gonna make it on talent, without money but I figured I would find a way some someday, I actually more or less believed it.

Therefore on any given day, since I was not at Indianapolis, I was invincible and could take any god awful risk I wanted with full belief I would get away with it and I always did.

Since I grew up in a racing family and almost all of my childhood heroes got killed, death in racing to me was not the horror it is for young fans today. It was part of the costs for living a life I always dreamed of, and which put me in my own mind a notch above ordinary street people.

I had no desire to live a long boring life, I was happy if it would be a short but thrilling one. I was happy to be a nickel rocket as long as I made it to Indy and if i died there, well, I would always be remembered.

I recalled what Eddie Sachs said, "If you can't win be spectacular." The closest I came to having to face racing in a race where there had been a fatality was at a sprint car race where after a big accident on a 100 degree day while on the red and waiting for it to resume and dying of thirst strapped in the car, somebody came by and said he was dead.

My thoughts were, "Well damn it, clean up the mess. I am thirsty, lets get going." And as it turned out he wasn't dead anyway.

Merry Christmas lol.

Posted with all due gratitude to those who conspired to rid this bulletin board of Buford.

Which, of course, is none...

[kayemod]

Which, of course, is none...

And all those 'none' know who they are.

[f1steveuk]

Jackie Stewart also said he didn't slow at Zandvort in '73 as he assumed it was Purley standing beside his own burning car.

Not a serious accident, but didn't Lauda once comment that having his seen his major rival stuffed into the barriers, "it's not often you piss yourself laughing inside your crash helmet", so, no concern there then!!??

[Flat Black 84]

I have to believe Eddie Johnson must have got out of the throttle a bit after teammate Eddie Sach's horrendous crash in an identical car. Johnson withdrew several laps later with, I believe, fuel pump problems, and I expect he was only to happy to get out of that infernal machine.

[rateus]

Not a serious accident, but didn't Lauda once comment that having his seen his major rival stuffed into the barriers, "it's not often you piss yourself laughing inside your crash helmet", so, no concern there then!!??

Actually Alan Jones on seeing Piquet crash in Monaco in 1981.

[f1steveuk]

Actually Alan Jones on seeing Piquet crash in Monaco in 1981.

Does sound more of a Jones qoute!! but I am sure Lauda said something similar, mind you, I suspect most drivers have said something at some time!

[Formula Once]

Stewart certainly didn't slow down when Regazzoni crashed at Kyalami in 1973; in fact he passed people under yellow to take the lead...

Thank God Mike Hailwood did stop and saved Clay:

Jackie talked about safety a lot, and gets a lot of credit for having thus saved lives, but I often feel that people like Hailwood, Purley, Merzario, Edwards, Lunger, Depailler, etc. atcually did do some serious saving. Not to mention Graham Hill at Spa 1966...

[rallen]

Not to mention Graham Hill at Spa 1966...

And also in Spain 69...

[f1steveuk]

And also in Spain 69...

and testing at Kyalami in 1974 (Revson)

[doc knutsen]

Jackie Stewart also said he didn't slow at Zandvort in '73 as he assumed it was Purley standing beside his own burning car.

Not a serious accident, but didn't Lauda once comment that having his seen his major rival stuffed into the barriers, "it's not often you piss yourself laughing inside your crash helmet", so, no concern there then!!??

I think that would be Alan Jones, commenting on Piquet stuffing it into the barriers at Monaco when Jonesy was chasing him.

[kayemod]

I often feel that people like Hailwood, Purley, Merzario, Edwards, Lunger, Depailler, etc. atcually did do some serious saving. Not to mention Graham Hill at Spa 1966...

Don't forget Harald Ertl.

[Formula Once]

Vic Elford stopped to help at Le Mans in 1972. Sadly there was nothing he could do...

http://www.youtube.c...o...PL&index=11

Taken from Michael Keyser's wonderful Speed Merchants film

Edited by Formula Once, 03 December 2009 - 20:31.

[alansart]

Ayrton Senna stopped to help on occasion.

[rallen]

I was going to post that, I just remembered about it. If you fast forward to about 6 minutes into this video, you can see Senna helping Comas and Senna on the scene of Martin Donnely's wreck.

Johnny Herbert stopped to help someone as well, this terrifying accident - surely the most impressive onboard camera footage - tire blow at at 200mph. Frightning. Apparently this was the first time Herbert had run since his accident!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by kayemod
And all those 'none' know who they are.

Yes, they're probably proud of themselves...

However, my 'none' related to the amount of gratitude I have for them.

[ghinzani]

Posted with all due gratitude to those who conspired to rid this bulletin board of Buford.

So he's gone for good? ****!

Bak on topic, to be fair all drivers should slow down directly after a crash, for the simple reason there should be yellow flags. We get hammered for not slowing for them at my local track, although we did have a guy stop in the middle of the track to question his black flag last week... Cue carnage!

[Jim Thurman]

I have to believe Eddie Johnson must have got out of the throttle a bit after teammate Eddie Sach's horrendous crash in an identical car. Johnson withdrew several laps later with, I believe, fuel pump problems, and I expect he was only to happy to get out of that infernal machine.

I'm not so sure. Eddie Johnson was a consummate pro, a smooth, steady driver who got rides based on his ability to finish. I'm not aware of Johnson having the problems others had with the Thompson car, so, unfortunately I think it puts the onus back on Dave MacDonald's driving of it more than the car being horrible. It wouldn't have surprised me had Johnson driven the car to the finish save for it's mechanical issue.

He only did 4 laps more before the car failed.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 04 December 2009 - 20:09.

[Jim Thurman]

Also keep in mind that many of the drivers that passed the Williamson accident at Zandvoort said they thought the driver was out or the marshals would do something.

Stateside, there have been several cases of drivers stopping to help, including Ed Elisian - he of so much slanderous and libelous comment - stopping near Bill Vukovich's accident in the 1955 Indianapolis 500 and bolting from his car to the wreckage in an attempt to help.

[ZOOOM]

I have to believe Eddie Johnson must have got out of the throttle a bit after teammate Eddie Sach's horrendous crash in an identical car. Johnson withdrew several laps later with, I believe, fuel pump problems, and I expect he was only to happy to get out of that infernal machine.

Flat, I'm sure you remember that Eddie Johnson's team mate was Dave MacDonald. Eddie Sachs drove the Shrike that day.

ZOOOM

[stuartbrs]

I dont know if this is relevant or not.. Earlier this year at a kart meeting I was racing at a young kid that pitted with us had a nasty accident and went through a fence, basically shreded his hands.. his gloves were full of skin and blood.. obviously his parents were distraught and took off in the Ambulance with him to hospital.. it was only at the end of the day when we were packing up their trailer that I started to wonder what would have happened if I had the same accident..I had seen the wheel on his Kart all bent and twisted and still did another 2 races.. Even at my ripe old age of only 38, you still feel like it wont happen to you.. It really is a ridiculous sport..

[rallen]

I read in another thread that Eric Comas lost a second off his pace after witnessing Senna's resuscitation attempts at Imola

[oldtimer]

IIRC, Mike Hawthorn's lap times were affected after he passed a crashed Ferrari, Musso's, believing it to be Peter Collins', his'Mon Ami Mate'. After he realised it wasn't Collins car, he became the fastest man on the track and finished second.

All this at Spa in 1958, no place to go off the narrow tarmac ribbon in those days.

[Tim Murray]

All this at Spa in 1958, no place to go off the narrow tarmac ribbon in those days.

Musso died at Reims - Hawthorn won that race.

[Roger Clark]

Musso died at Reims - Hawthorn won that race.

But Musso did crash at Spa, Hawthorn did think it was Collins, did slow down until he saw Collins at the pits and did finish second.

[Tim Murray]

You're absolutely right. I'd forgotten that Musso also crashed at Spa (even though it's all there in Champion Year). Sincere apologies.

[Jop Zwart]

But Musso did crash at Spa, Hawthorn did think it was Collins, did slow down until he saw Collins at the pits and did finish second.

Are you sure Hawthorn thought the crashed Ferrari was Collins' car, because according to Mike Lang in his Grand Prix! book, he knew it
was Musso's car. A quote:"at about this time Musso had walked back to the pits and Hawthorn, on seeing his team-mate apparently none
the worse for his excursion, suddenly seemed to find renewed inspiration".

Jop

[Tim Murray]

Perhaps I can redeem myself here by quoting from Mike Hawthorn's book Champion Year:

When I saw this I thought it was Peter who had gone off. I knew the car was smoking and anyway in a poor state from the chaos of the start, and I thought that he had probably decided to press on with it, and that it had blown up and spun. I didn't actually see the car for some time because there was a drop just there on the left-hand side of the circuit down to a field. I could not see how anyone could get away with a thing like that. I honestly thought he had had it and I was in no mood to go on motor racing, but I felt I had to go on.

I think it must have been about six laps later that I suddenly saw Pete standing at the pits and I thought: Thank God for that, he's all right. Then I realised it must have been Luigi. Oddly enough the very next time round I did see the car, or what was left of it, and Luigi standing on the other side of the road. So then I really felt better, everyone was all right and I thought I had better try and do something about Tony.

[Jop Zwart]

Perhaps I can redeem myself here by quoting from Mike Hawthorn's book Champion Year:

A very convincing answer. Unfortunately I don't have "Champion Year', otherwise I wouldn't have
asked such a stupid question. But one thing is for sure, Mike Lang got it wrong.

Thanks,

Jop

[rwills]

Here are a couple of photos I took of Ickx's crash at Watkins Glen. If I remember correctly, he suffered broken ankles.

Was this driving the Ensign as he had moved from the Williams Wolf later in 1976 I believe?

[Tim Murray]

A very convincing answer. Unfortunately I don't have "Champion Year', otherwise I wouldn't have
asked such a stupid question. But one thing is for sure, Mike Lang got it wrong.

Thanks,

Jop

Jop, you're being far too hard on yourself, and perhaps on Mike Lang too. Lang is right to say that it was only after Hawthorn realised that Musso was OK that he found his renewed inspiration. He just missed out on Hawthorn initially thinking that Collins had crashed.

[Catalina Park]

I did see a video of the Ickx crash on the net recently but I can't remember where. Ickx ended up sitting in the burning car in the middle of the track and had to bale out and run away with two damaged ankles.

Edited by Catalina Park, 06 December 2009 - 10:31.

[Tim Murray]

Was this driving the Ensign as he had moved from the Williams Wolf later in 1976 I believe?

Yes indeed. Ickx left the Wolf Williams team after the British GP. Chris Amon decided to leave Ensign after the German GP, and Ickx replaced him from the Dutch GP onward.

[Jop Zwart]

Jop, you're being far too hard on yourself, and perhaps on Mike Lang too. Lang is right to say that it was only after Hawthorn realised that Musso was OK that he found his renewed inspiration. He just missed out on Hawthorn initially thinking that Collins had crashed.

Yes, but Mike Lang wrote that Musso had walked back to the pits and that Hawthorn saw him there, while Hawthorn himself says that he saw Luigi standing
on the other side of the road where he had crashed. So i.m.o. Mike Lang got it wrong here. But let me hasten to say that I like his books very much and that they
are excellent reference books.

Jop

Edited by Jop Zwart, 06 December 2009 - 11:35.

[rallen]

Sorry I am getting slightly OT but do you guys recomend Mike Langs Grand Prix books?