37 replies to this topic

[racelance]

I was curious if anyone know's what the first American car to ever win its CLASS at Le Mans? <not overall - just the first car to win its class>

Thanks in advance,

Lance

Edited by racelance, 04 December 2009 - 18:23.

[Wouter Melissen]

The Cunningham in 1952?

[RA Historian]

A Chrysler or a Stutz back in the early thirties?

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 04 December 2009 - 18:46.

[Tim Murray]

I've checked through the results on Martin Krejči's site, and unless I've missed something the earliest is 1951 when the Cunningham C2-R of Phil Walters and John Fitch won the 5 - 8 litre class. 1951 results here:

http://wsrp.ic.cz/nonchamp1951.html#21

Edited by Tim Murray, 04 December 2009 - 19:09.

[tampaguy]

In 1921 Jimmy Murphy took a white 3-litre Dusenberg to Lemans and recorded the 1st victory ever secured by an American car in a European Grand Prix. His winning speed was 68.1 mph...........Tampaguy

[racelance]

A Chrysler or a Stutz back in the early thirties?

Tom

Thanks Tom... I've been trying to find the time to read through the results, but figured someone out there would know off the top of their head. The reason I ask is because I have plans to take our 1960 Cunningham Corvette (#3) back over to the 24 hour race at Le Mans this year for a 50 year reunion. Someone recently asked me if it was the first American car to win Le Mans - I never even thought about it like that - but thought it would be a neat piece of history if it was... I knew it was the first Corvette to ever win it's class at Le Mans however it would have been icing on the cake if it was the first American car to ever win in its class... oh well, never hurts asking!

Enjoy your weekend and thanks for your help.

Sincerely,

Lance

PS: Here's a pic in action (1960):


PSS: John Fitch has agreed to come over to Le Mans in 2010 with me an the car - life is good!

[Allan Lupton]

A Chrysler or a Stutz back in the early thirties?

Chryslers and Stutz were of similar engine size to the winning Bentleys in 1928 and 29 and DNF in other years, so best was Stutz 2nd in class and overall in 1928

In 1921 Jimmy Murphy took a white 3-litre Dusenberg to Lemans and recorded the 1st victory ever secured by an American car in a European Grand Prix. His winning speed was 68.1 mph...........Tampaguy

Yes, but I think we are writing about the 24 hour race in this thread

[RA Historian]

Chryslers and Stutz were of similar engine size to the winning Bentleys in 1928 and 29 and DNF in other years, so best was Stutz 2nd in class and overall in 1928

Thanks for the update!
Tom

[Ivan Saxton]

Chryslers and Stutz were of similar engine size to the winning Bentleys in 1928 and 29 and DNF in other years, so best was Stutz 2nd in class and overall in 1928




Yes, but I think we are writing about the 24 hour race in this thread

Literal interpretation of the question would have to include the 1921 Grade Prix. Probably the greatest advantage Duesenberg had over other cars in the race was the hydraulic brakes. Murphy's winning margin was 15 minutes. The first Duesenberg passenger cars were basically derived from the 3 litre racing cars, and could stop from 30mph in 30 feet, and from 50mph in 86 feet.

[Allan Lupton]

Literal interpretation of the question would have to include the 1921 Grade Prix. Probably the greatest advantage Duesenberg had over other cars in the race was the hydraulic brakes. Murphy's winning margin was 15 minutes. The first Duesenberg passenger cars were basically derived from the 3 litre racing cars, and could stop from 30mph in 30 feet, and from 50mph in 86 feet.

All that's true, except he wrote "win its class" and there are no classes in a Grand Prix.
A 15 mins winning margin was close compared to that a year later (58 mins with 3rd another 33 min behind him).

[Catalina Park]

All that's true, except he wrote "win its class" and there are no classes in a Grand Prix.

I have seen GPs with more than one class.

[Ray Bell]

I have seen GPs that didn't have any class!

But I guess that's all a sideline in this debate...

[Ivan Saxton]

All that's true, except he wrote "win its class" and there are no classes in a Grand Prix.
A 15 mins winning margin was close compared to that a year later (58 mins with 3rd another 33 min behind him).

I guess if there are no separate classes in a race then mathematically there is just one class; because if there was no class at all there would be no race. As Ray says, it is a side issue. Murphy later purchased the car from Duesenberg, at won the 1922 Indianapolis 500 with a Miller engine; thereby a considerably faster car than it was built. In its first competitive event with the Miller engine it won over 100 miles at over 115mph average. Pietro Bordino won the previous 50 mile race that day in a FIAT 804 at 114.5mph. I had some aquaintance a good few years ago with a Ballot the same as the one DePalma drove to second place behind Murphy at LeMans. (The Ballot was 2/3 the displacement of the Duesenberg). A friend near here was restoring one of these twin OHC 2 litre 4 cylinder Ballots, and I helped him amend a problem weakness of crazy design. One might easily have been misled that it was the design achievement of honourable oriental engineer Ah Sup. If it is fair to compare the design, workmanship, and practicallity of this model Ballot with the Duesenberg passenger car of the time, there is absolutely no way, even if I suffered a brain fade, that I would ever trade an A Duesenberg for one.

[Tom Glowacki]

I was curious if anyone know's what the first American car to ever win its CLASS at Le Mans? <not overall - just the first car to win its class>

Thanks in advance,

Lance

I pulled out my copy of Albert Bochroch's "Americans at LeMans" and found the following:

A Ford- Montier finished 14th in the inguarual 24 Hours in 1923. It was race entry No. 19, but was listed a being a "Montier Speciale" and being French. Bochroch cites the Ford Museum for the proposition that it was a Ford. .

In 1925, the Stoffel/Desvauk Chrysler finish 7th, two laps short of being classified.

A Stutz finished a close second to the Barnato/Rublin Bentley, and Chryslers finished 3rd and 4th in 1928. Chryslers were 6th and 7th in 1929.

Cunningham's Cadillacs were 10th and 11th in 1950. Cunninghams finished 18th in 1951 (Fitch/Walters), 4th in 1952 (Cunningham/Spear).7th in 1953 (Cunningham/Spear),and 3rd (Johnson/Spear), and 5th (Cunningham/Bennett) in 1954.

Let me know if you need more, but the Bochroch makes no mention of class winners, or the infamous Index winners.

[AMICALEMANS]

First american car to compete : Chrysler in 1926 (the montier was a Ford T but with so many modifications, the car was entered as a Montier !)

First amrican car to finish was the Chrysler but the car was not classified

First american cars in the top 3, the Stutz and the Chrysler in 1928

First american car class win : 1951 with the Cunningham C2R (win the class 5001-8000 cm3) 18th overall with Fitch/Walters

First american car win overall : Ford in 1966

Last american car win overall : Ford in 1969

[AMICALEMANS]

I forgot

First american car to win GT Class : Cobra in 1964

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by the irrepressible Ivan Saxton
.....A friend near here was restoring one of these twin OHC 2 litre 4 cylinder Ballots, and I helped him amend a problem weakness of crazy design. One might easily have been misled that it was the design achievement of honourable oriental engineer Ah Sup.....

Has the one from WA migrated east again, Ivan... or are there two in Australia?

[Ivan Saxton]

Has the one from WA migrated east again, Ivan... or are there two in Australia?

There were always two here that I know of, Ray. The one I referred to belonged to a man named Fox in Melbourne. It was his everyday transport until its problems developed beyond the bounds of his resources to fix them; when he bought a new side valve Norton motor bike with sidecar to use instead. On his death in the late 1970's, the option and responsibility to dispose of both fell to his nephew, a farmer near here who I knew; but unfortunately he did not know me well enough to know that I was also involved with old cars. So the local vet, Wes, was given the opportunity to own it. I am sure the body was not totally original; being very much later MG in style. (Alex Chitts did buy his uncle's Norton outfit, and rode it on the farm seldom until he tired of it. I introduced a friend to him who visited periodically; visits that continued, on the Norton, after he was able to buy and conserve it.)
The other one was owned by Sir Gordon MacArthur near Camperdown. A sheep classer told me about him and it in 1962, but I never went to look, even though two of my cousins rowed with his son Stuart at Geelong College. There was also a very early Bianchi on the property, I believe. Sir Gordon was Speaker of the Melbourne Legislative Council for a long time; and must have been a bit unroadworthy because he only had one leg. My long memory has on file that I was told that he stroked his university eight in the Oxford-Cambridge boat race thus. Now in the late 30's-early 40's there was a fellow called McLaren, who thought he had a brilliant idea for rotary valves. Somehow Sir Gordon was persuaded to invest in him, and he converted or tried to convert the Ballot to rotary valves, which pretty much "beeped"it. You can only guess whether the engine had block troubles, or whether the argument was that rotatry valves would overcome some other problem. (I am sure Wes had trouble with his block that required considerable oven welding by someone obviously more expert than I have ever encountered.) I understand that Alastair MacArthur's car now has the Archdale engine.
McLaren also converted and detroyed a 6 cylinder 6 litre Cuff-valve Peugeot of the early 1920's; but I am fairly sure that no remains of this are among the parts from which I have about enough to rebuild two of these cars. (Of 180 Peugeot say they built , and 120 they sold, Jean-Pierre has one original car restored and running in France, and a spare engine. Other than what he has and I have , there seems to be nothing.) McLaren was still messing around with the idea in the forties, possibly after ther war; and Bob Chamberlain told him to use their Heenan & Froude Dynamometer so he could measure exactly what he was achieving with the latest victim, which was a small 4 cylinder Bedford engine from one of those vans, I understand. The dyno showed that he had achieved a remarkable diminishment of performance from standard.
On this tangent of Rotary valves, Duesenberg tried three times. His first effort was a rotary valve engine fitted to one of their bicycles in 1899-1900. Fred was credited with world speed records for distances of two and three miles, but obviously had ambition to go faster further. About 1922 they made and fitted a rotary valve head to one of the 3 litre racing cars. There is a good photo of this in Fred Roe's excellent book Duesenberg: The Persuit of Perfection. At Indianapolis in 1926, one of the two Duesenbergs that was finished and able to run was an 8 cylinder 1 1/2 litre supercharged two-stroke, which dropped out after 53 laps due to engine difficulties. And there used to be one of those big veteran rotary valve Italas in Melbourne. Bob Chamberlain told me that that during the war Aeronautical Research Laboratories at Fisherman's Bend became intersted in rotary vales and gathered it for study. No-one knows what happened to it.

[cabianca]

Some other American Class wins at Le Mans

As mentioned, the Montier entered in 1923-4-5 was Model T based. It was entered as a Montier Special, but the entry form says the marque is Ford.

1950. Cadillac-powered Allard (3rd overall) won the 5001-8000cc Class

1951. Cunningham C-2R (18th overall) won the 5001-8000cc Class

1952. Cunningham C-4R (4th overall) won the 5001-8000cc Class

1953. Cunningham C-5R (3rd overall) won the 5001-8000cc Class

1954. Cunningham C-4R (3rd overall) won the 5001-8000cc Class

1960. Corvette (8th overall) won the 5001-8000 GT Class

1963. AC-Cobra (7th overall) won the over 3000cc GT Class

1964. Cobra Daytona (4th overall) won the GT Class

1965. Cobra Daytona (8th overall) won the up to 5000cc GT Class

1965. Chevrolet-powered Iso Grifo (9th overall) won the over 5000cc GT Class

1966. Ford Mk II won overall.

1967. Ford Mk IV won overall.

1968. Ford GT 40 won overall

1969. Ford GT 40 won overall

1973. Corvette (12th overall) won over 5000cc GT Class

1974. Corvette (18th overall) won over 5000cc GT Class

1998. Dodge Viper (11th overall) won GT2 Class

1999. Dodge Viper (10th overall) won GT2 Class

2000. Dodge Viper (7th overall) won GT2 Class

2001. Corvette (8th overall) won GTS Class

2002. Corvette (11th overall) won GTS Class

2004. Corvette (6th overall) won GTS Class

2005. Corvette (5th overall) won GT1 Class

2006. Corvette (4th overall) won GT1 Class

2009. Corvette (15th overall) won GT1 Class

[AMICALEMANS]

Allard was an english brand.....with an american engine....

And the Montier was entered as a Montier.....

In 1963, the entry was A.C. Cars Ltd / W. Hurdock, GB, so it was an english car with an american engine.....;

Edited by AMICALEMANS, 06 December 2009 - 08:13.

[RCH]

Think we've been here before, AC Cobras, British or American? Ford GT40s, British or American?

[racelance]

Special thanks for your help!

Sincerely,

Lance

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by RCH
Think we've been here before, AC Cobras, British or American? Ford GT40s, British or American?

What colour were the worms in the can last time?

Weren't there Cobras out of the US (assembled by Shelby American) AC Cobras out of England (completed by AC Cars)?

You'd never get to the bottom of the ethnicity of the Ford GTs and GT40s, I don't think...

[RCH]

What colour were the worms in the can last time?

Weren't there Cobras out of the US (assembled by Shelby American) AC Cobras out of England (completed by AC Cars)?

You'd never get to the bottom of the ethnicity of the Ford GTs and GT40s, I don't think...

True, I only posted to be mischievious!

[D-Type]

True, I only posted to be mischievious!

You missed the Nash-Healey

[Ray Bell]

We all miss the Nash Healey...

Where is Sabrina now?

[Allan Lupton]

We all miss the Nash Healey...

Where is Sabrina now?

She was a Triumph, surely?

Edited by Allan Lupton, 07 December 2009 - 23:51.

[Catalina Park]

She was a Triumph, surely?

How about an MGA?

[Ray Bell]

Wrong Sabrina...

I refer to the movie in which the leading lady (Sabrina was her movie name) drove a Nash-Healey.

[Allan Lupton]

Wrong Sabrina...

I refer to the movie in which the leading lady (Sabrina was her movie name) drove a Nash-Healey.

Must have missed that - this (as you will know) is what I referred to:

[Catalina Park]

Must have missed that - this (as you will know) is what I referred to:

This is what I referred to...

[Ray Bell]

And this is the one I meant:

http://www.mptvimage...7/8124_0052.jpg

Obviously from the MPTV site.

I guess that twin cam engine's a modified Vanguard, Allan?

Edited by Ray Bell, 08 December 2009 - 11:10.

[Allan Lupton]

I guess that twin cam engine's a modified Vanguard, Allan?

Not really.
I found the following note which confirms what I thought:

The Sabrina wasn't built around a TR block, but had its own shorter depth casting (with an alloy crankcase and separate alloy sump), so a re cast Sabrina head and alloy front drive setup with the "protrusions" wouldn't fit onto a TR4 block. Also, on the Sabrina, the starter was mounted higher up to allow for the clutch slave cylinder to swap sides, so as to avoid the exhaust pipes from the cross flow head.

You can see the block/crankcase in that photo I posted.

[Ray Bell]

No, Allan, I've never heard of it...

Was it a Le Mans engine? Where was the name applied?

[Allan Lupton]

The "Sabrina" engine was specially built for Triumph's TRS Le Mans cars of 1961 - finished 11th and 15th I think.
This is one of the cars at a recent retrospective

Edited by Allan Lupton, 08 December 2009 - 13:13.

[RCH]

The "Sabrina" engined Triumphs were not classified in 1960 but would have been 15,16 and 18th. In 1961 they were 9,11 and 15th. I've never understood why Standard Triumph went to the trouble of developing a twin cam engine (not just a bolt on modification to an existing engine) and then only used it for 2 half-hearted Le Mans attempts.

I understand it was actually longer than the familiar pushrod motor and wouldn't have fitted easily in a TR3/4 anyway. Anyone any further knowledge?

As for Sabrina herself, I'm surprised she actually made it into a film, I thought she was just well known for being errr... well developed...

[h4887]

The 'Sabrina' engine was a kind of sandwich structure, held together by long bolts. As any fule kno, this was really invented many years later and called the 'K-Series'

[TDC]

Cabianca's list is excellent, but for the mentioned Nash-powered Healey win in the 3001-5000cc class, and two others left out that I can see, the 2006 Panoz Esperante win in GT2 (15th overall), and the 2010 Saleen victory in GT1 (13th overall). Any more?
TC