19 replies to this topic

[Mansell4PM]

Re. the proposed cost cutting reported for the DTM recently (basically a development freeze, as the cars have become far removed from production models and thus horrendously expensive), how's this for an idea?:

Run the DTM to the same rules as V8 Supercars. These are more production based than DTM cars and (probably?) cheaper to build and run. The V8 name would also fit with the current manufacturers' (Audi and Merc's) top line production models. Also, the two 'worlds' could meet and race each other at times - Dubai or even Bathurst?

This would also allow Opel/Vauxhall back into the DTM relatively easily by whipping the badges off a Holden.

Also, other manufacturers could maybe be tempted in - after all Jaguar, Lexus, etc. all make V8 powered cars.

The DTM's great, but it seems to me this might reduce the risk of decline setting in.

This would give the DTM a huge lift, whilst reducing costs. It might give the V8 Supercar series a lift too - Ford and Holden would have to up their game even higher if they occasionally had to race someone other than each other.

Comments?

[domlebo70]

Re. the proposed cost cutting reported for the DTM recently (basically a development freeze, as the cars have become far removed from production models and thus horrendously expensive), how's this for an idea?:

Run the DTM to the same rules as V8 Supercars. These are more production based than DTM cars and (probably?) cheaper to build and run. The V8 name would also fit with the current manufacturers' (Audi and Merc's) top line production models. Also, the two 'worlds' could meet and race each other at times - Dubai or even Bathurst?

This would also allow Opel/Vauxhall back into the DTM relatively easily by whipping the badges off a Holden.

Also, other manufacturers could maybe be tempted in - after all Jaguar, Lexus, etc. all make V8 powered cars.

The DTM's great, but it seems to me this might reduce the risk of decline setting in.

This would give the DTM a huge lift, whilst reducing costs. It might give the V8 Supercar series a lift too - Ford and Holden would have to up their game even higher if they occasionally had to race someone other than each other.

Comments?

Kthxbai

[Mansell4PM]

Kthxbai

Thanks for that - the 'golden era' cars are exactly what I had in mind (derived from production car bodyshells, but with aero parts added to make them FAST).

Could a move like this be a return to the golden days?

I noticed as well the numerous manufacturers in the clips. Surely it's better to return to those days for both series? Both are now contested by two makes only.

Any thoughts on this from Oz?

Edited by Mansell4PM, 08 December 2009 - 16:09.

[Seanspeed]

What happened to the whole 'SuperGT vs DTM' series that they were talking about just not that long ago? That seemed pretty much exactly opposite of what we're talking about here.

[maverick69]

Re. the proposed cost cutting reported for the DTM recently (basically a development freeze, as the cars have become far removed from production models and thus horrendously expensive), how's this for an idea?:

Run the DTM to the same rules as V8 Supercars. These are more production based than DTM cars and (probably?) cheaper to build and run. The V8 name would also fit with the current manufacturers' (Audi and Merc's) top line production models. Also, the two 'worlds' could meet and race each other at times - Dubai or even Bathurst?

This would also allow Opel/Vauxhall back into the DTM relatively easily by whipping the badges off a Holden.

Also, other manufacturers could maybe be tempted in - after all Jaguar, Lexus, etc. all make V8 powered cars.

The DTM's great, but it seems to me this might reduce the risk of decline setting in.

This would give the DTM a huge lift, whilst reducing costs. It might give the V8 Supercar series a lift too - Ford and Holden would have to up their game even higher if they occasionally had to race someone other than each other.

Comments?

I have thought the same thing many times. Basically run the S2000 rules but for midsize V8 saloons.

To build on your point - look at the V8 production cars in that category: 5 series BMW, Merc E-Class or CLS, Jag XF, Audi A6, Vauxhall/Opel VXR8, Chrysler 300C, Maserati Quattroporte (!!!), Lexus GS...

That would be great to watch and bring brilliant coverage for those makes without anhilating the bank... ultimately making the series much more sustainable.


Infact. Sod the Germans. Make this the formula for the BTCC. Back to the good old days!

Edited by HarryReams, 08 December 2009 - 16:37.

[jee]

Just a few days old, they are actually in talks with the japanese Super GT organisators

http://www.motorspor...n_09120402.html

I would really like to see a new world wide V8 touringcar formula for DTM, SuperGT and V8 Supercars, all series have a pretty similar car concept.

[juicy sushi]

S2000 rules are quite expensive, and a pretty big failure in terms of making for a viable series.

If you really want to go back to those golden years, perhaps something more production derived would be better. Given the power of the Mercedes C63, Audi S4 and BMW M3, running FIA GT4 rules (BMW already builds an M3 for them) would be easy, and make for very cost-effective racing. They'd also allow for Mustangs and Camaros like under the old rules as well, since a GT4 Mustang exists, and GM has a Camaro available for Koni Challenge in the US, which essentially runs the same technical rules.

But as others have mentioned, the DTM is actually looking at moving even further away from this idea, and perhaps adopting Super GT rules (not too far beyond what they are currently):

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=119974

[Atreiu]

3 hours of free practice on saturday, best times form the grid. Race on Sunday noon.
That's it. Very little running equals less costs. And then bring in more feeder series to fill the schedule and split the expenses.

[juicy sushi]

Your suggestion really only works if it's the running costs that are the issue. The cars are expensive to run, but the ridiculous wind tunnel time and CFD work used to develop them are a big issue as well. The way team orders have almost turned the series into pro-wrestling doesn't help either...

[billm99uk]

I have thought the same thing many times. Basically run the S2000 rules but for midsize V8 saloons.

To build on your point - look at the V8 production cars in that category: 5 series BMW, Merc E-Class or CLS, Jag XF, Audi A6, Vauxhall/Opel VXR8, Chrysler 300C, Maserati Quattroporte (!!!), Lexus GS...

That would be great to watch and bring brilliant coverage for those makes without anhilating the bank... ultimately making the series much more sustainable.


Infact. Sod the Germans. Make this the formula for the BTCC. Back to the good old days!

Problem is, unlike the US or Australia, people just don't drive V8's in any great numbers these days

[maverick69]

Problem is, unlike the US or Australia, people just don't drive V8's in any great numbers these days

And most people didn't drive XJS's, SD1's or RS500's in the 80's!

Edited by HarryReams, 08 December 2009 - 20:51.

[billm99uk]

And most people didn't drive XJS's, SD1's or RS500's in the 80's!

Yes, but that was why we got Super Touring - obviously it was just you and me watching them

[maverick69]

Yes, but that was why we got Super Touring - obviously it was just you and me watching them

You know it makes sense

[FPV GTHO]

V8 Supercars rules are going to get a shakeup in the next few years, so i'm not so confident theyre the answer to DTM's issues.

I do like the idea of a Super5000 set of rules though.

[Mansell4PM]

V8 Supercars rules are going to get a shakeup in the next few years, so i'm not so confident theyre the answer to DTM's issues.

I do like the idea of a Super5000 set of rules though.

Maybe a sort of 'meeting in the middle' was what I had in mind when I started this thread. Basically it was so that there could be two parallel series that meet from time to time on equal terms. What I was after really was a chance to wave a Jaguar flag at Mount Panorama, oh and stand a chance of seeing thundering great V8s at Brands Hatch.

So I'm not bothered what set of rules they run to - though I do think the V8 Supercar rulebook is near spot-on at the moment. They look like cars people can buy but go like excrement off a digging implement. There never seems to be an advantage for any one make with the rules they have either, so there's a chance of Ford or Holden winning as every race weekend is approached.

Also I meant to say Bahrain, rather than Dubai in my original thread - the V8s run there at the moment and it's a fantastic show. It's, dare I say it, better than the F1 GP there - on the telly at least. Although it seems to be poorly attended - though not surprising really given the distance from Oz.

Here's a thought for you all - European V8s running with the Aussie ones around the old Adelaide GP circuit.

Imagine them around Macau as well - which isn't too far from Oz. Or would they be too big and powerful for the twisty bits on the hillside?

Also another idea for a feeder series to this: like NASCAR has the Craftsman truck series, why not allow the manufacturers involved race their big 4X4s. It would be a laugh to watch and the engines from the main series could be used. Nearly all the makes mentioned in previous threads have 4x4s in their ranges too, and it would be another case of racing something that looks like cars people can buy. Oh, and provided slicks aren't used, 'offs' shouldn't pose too big a problem. So for the cost of developing one engine, the manufacturers would get two races on one bill. This one might even spark the interest of the American makes - though they do seem to be running scared from SUVs at the moment.

Edited by Mansell4PM, 09 December 2009 - 10:55.

[Mansell4PM]

Problem is, unlike the US or Australia, people just don't drive V8's in any great numbers these days

No, but Audi, Merc, Jaguar, Lexus, et al shift decent numbers of cars that also have a V8 engined option. An AMG C-class still looks to most people like a C-class, and some might be sold on the back of this.

Imagine the bragging rights Alan Partridge would have if Lexus ended up winning the championship.

Also, imagine the bragging rights Ford or Holden would have if they beat Europe or Japan's best on equal terms. Running them close would also look nearly as good.

[V8 Fireworks]

Run the DTM to the same rules as V8 Supercars. These are more production based than DTM cars and (probably?) cheaper to build and run. The V8 name would also fit with the current manufacturers' (Audi and Merc's) top line production models. Also, the two 'worlds' could meet and race each other at times - Dubai or even Bathurst?

A) Not the "same" rules - I doubt BMW want to race a touring car with a solid rear axle... Some rules could be the same: hard 12" (i.e. not very) wide slicks on all corners giving insufficient grip and encouraging sliding, highly restricted aerodynamics.

B) BMW M3 - 4L V8, Mercedes C 63 AMG 6.3L V8. How do you make them equal? Do you make both 4 L? Do you increase the size of the BMW engine? Do you use the race-specific DTM engines? The stock DTM whole-season race engines with their restricted 450 hp would be a bit puny when put into a much heavier production based car, you'd have to unrestrict them a bit to at least 550 hp.

C) The BMW and Mercedes would be in much smaller more nimble body shapes, have independent rear suspension and lightweight alloy engine blocks. They would most likely beat the Aussie V8s, rendering the excercise pointless.


It's an excellent point of discussion though.

BMW M3 v Audi RS4 sedan (rwd and in fact a prototype w.r.t latest bodyshape which has no rs4 spec yet) v Mercedes C-class AMG vs Lexus ISF vs Alfa 159 (Ferrari powered) prototype



Although it's just GT3 class with 2 more doors actually, and the teams and status of the championship make the profile . Though it must be said... GT3 with 2 more doors and desperate bravado BTCC style racing instead of gentleman racers

[Mansell4PM]

A) Not the "same" rules - I doubt BMW want to race a touring car with a solid rear axle... Some rules could be the same: hard 12" (i.e. not very) wide slicks on all corners giving insufficient grip and encouraging sliding, highly restricted aerodynamics.

B) BMW M3 - 4L V8, Mercedes C 63 AMG 6.3L V8. How do you make them equal? Do you make both 4 L? Do you increase the size of the BMW engine? Do you use the race-specific DTM engines? The stock DTM whole-season race engines with their restricted 450 hp would be a bit puny when put into a much heavier production based car, you'd have to unrestrict them a bit to at least 550 hp.

C) The BMW and Mercedes would be in much smaller more nimble body shapes, have independent rear suspension and lightweight alloy engine blocks. They would most likely beat the Aussie V8s, rendering the excercise pointless.


It's an excellent point of discussion though.

BMW M3 v Audi RS4 sedan (rwd and in fact a prototype w.r.t latest bodyshape which has no rs4 spec yet) v Mercedes C-class AMG vs Lexus ISF vs Alfa 159 (Ferrari powered) prototype



Although it's just GT3 class with 2 more doors actually, and the teams and status of the championship make the profile . Though it must be said... GT3 with 2 more doors and desperate bravado BTCC style racing instead of gentleman racers

Some sort of equivalency would have to be worked out. Changing the cars too much would defeat the 'production based' idea and no doubt allow costs to rise to near current DTM levels.

Think of all the cars that have run at Bathurst in the past though- Nissans, Sierra Cosworths etc. All vastly different to the standard Aussie cars of the day.

All things are possible, and more variation could only help both series to continue. I worry about the future of DTM after recents announcements. What a shame it would be if it started on a downward spiral.

[V8 Fireworks]

You know it makes sense

Oh you mean with the larger class cars. That could be nice.

How do you sell a M5 race car with a V8 instead of the genuine V10 to the public though? I guess it is a minor point.

Someone suggested GT4 - I think that is too basic. GT3 is a little racier without going to the DTM levels. GT3 with actual biff and barge touring car racing could be very good.

Holden/Chev/Vauxhall Commodore/Lumina/VXR8
Ford Falcon (by Ford Australia for those thinking of the 60s version)
Dodge Charger
Audi S6
Mercedes E-class
BMW M5
Jaguar XF
Lexus GS



The classic TransAm 5 L limit I guess then?... probably forget the measly 7500 rpm of the Aussie ones, the Euros can handle 9000 rpm for sure and pump out a healthy 800 hp

Making all the different cars equal could prove somewhat difficult?

I presume the super touring suspension rules would be in place... the race suspension must be the same type as the original suspension with the suspension points within X radius of the original points?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 09 December 2009 - 13:02.

[dexter311]

I don't think Europeans understand the differences between V8 Supercars and DTM/BTCC/WTCC cars. Put simply - V8 Supercars are HUGE, both in size and mass. The VE Commodore and FG Falcon are the size of the Audi A6 and BMW 5-series. Trying to devise a set of regulations to accomodate for the big V8SCs and the tiny DTM cars would be impossible without some serious series-destroying advantage to certain makes.

And anyway, I feel that for the DTM to swap to a set of regulations like the current V8SC regs, it would be a step back in terms of technology. Zee Germans, particularly their engineers, are stubborn people and would never allow their precious carbon-monocoque-formula-cars-with-roofs to have a live axle rear and pushrod V8 (I'm an Australian engineer living here in Germany if you're wondering about my views). I'm surprised enough at the talk of potentially going to Super GT. And I think it would be safe to say that the Australians wouldn't want their great series (which is great because the racing is good and the cars are relatively cheap) to have a huge leap in technology and costs simply to appease Zee Germans.

Either way, the DTM needs an overhaul. They're no longer touring cars with all those ridiculous little aero devices, they're more like a formula car. And they need a set of regs that are appealing to more manufacturers than Audi and Mercedes to get rid of team orders and to add the competition, flavour and variety that existed in the glory years. I couldn't stand watching DTM this year - it was like watching paint dry. The V8 Supercars on the other hand had me hooked this season (not as much as other seasons, but it wasn't a bad season this year) and the extra effort of getting hold of it all the way over here in Germany fulfilled my Touring Car withdrawals.