72 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

I LOVE to hear other people's views on the 'what would have happened' theme.

Here's one to ponder. I came upon this magnificent creature in an old book of mine just today. I forgot it ever existed. I suspect a handful of people have forgotten too, or maybe never even knew...


The question is, if the second World War had not happened at all, this car would have challenged Mercedes and Auto Union, but where do you think racing might have gone from there?

[Felix Muelas]

Barry

Originally posted by Barry Boor
this car would have challenged Mercedes and Auto Union

Are you sure you mean the 512? When tested by Sanesi at Monza in 1940 -September 12- he reported unfavourably on its handling. Even claiming around 100bhp more than the 158, it lapped around two seconds slower. And, let´s not forget that the 512 was a 1500cc Voiturette!

So should we take the view that your opinion goes in that direction (the War does not take place and Voiturettes become the Grand Prix cars) or might we imagine that the 3-liter class might have survived? Because in that scenario, we should then evaluate (invent, I mean) the chances of the Tipo 162 (the V-16 Alfa that also existed and was tested in March 1940 reporting close to 500bhp, so comparable with the 1939 MB).

So please, Barry, set up the scenario for us to enter the "what if" arena: any chances for the 3-liter Formula or do we jump straight into the 1.5sc Voiturettes (and the rear-engine revolution)?

Yes, this idea of yours looks extremelly attractive...

Felix

[Leif Snellman]

1941
XIV GROßER PREIS VON DEUTSCHLAND
Deuschland Ring, Dresden

Start list:
Mercedes-Benz W165 - V8
Lang, Caracciola, von Brauchitsch, Pietsch

Auto Union E - V12
Nuvolari, Müller, Stuck, Meier

Alfa Romeo 158 - 8 in line
Farina, Fagioli, Biondetti, Trossi

Maserati 4CL - 4 in line
Villoresi, Varzi, Ascari, Cortese,

ERA E
Mays, Bira, ?

Sommer?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Leif,
Sommer would have bought a Maserati 4CL.

[Boniver]

1941
XIV GROßER PREIS VON DEUTSCHLAND
Deuschland Ring, Dresden

Leif,

1941 ????
Dresden ?????

was this race plans

[Leif Snellman]

According to Nixon's "Silver Arrows" (page 173) the German GP was to be moved to a new track at Dresden from 1940 onwards as it was more centrally placed than Nürburgring.

[MattFoster]

Thanks Barry,

I have been looking for a picture if this particular Alfa.

What a gorgeous creature it is.

Shame it didn't get a chance to show it's wares in competition.

Cheers
Matt

[Marco94]

Leif,

Do you mean to tell that this track was actually build, or were they just planning the races ahead?

Marco.

[Leif Snellman]

I think Hans could answer that better than I, but you don't build a 10 km track that could hold 1 million spectators and 350.000 cars (Nixon's numbers) in a week, so I guess much of the work must have been finished before the war begun.

[quintin cloud]

Hi Leif

in 1940 you make note note of the german gp moving
from nurburgring to Dresden circuit , now was there
ever a entry list for that race and a race reuslt?
and in the 1941 you made note of the entry list for
that race , do you have the result for that event?

[Felix Muelas]

Quintin,

The title of the thread is "Suppose World War II hadn't happened..."

Unfortunately IT happened.

Felix

[TonyKaye]

IT happened, but of course it didn't stop racing completely. There was the Tripoli Grand Prix and the Mille Miglia that wasn't a real Mille Miglia. Of course racing was initially unaffected in North and South America. The last race that I am aware of before the end of the war the 1943 Eritrea event, which was won by a Maserati.

[Felix Muelas]

Tony

I am aware of the two races you mention in 1940, but, to be honest, I have never heard until today of an event taking place in 1943 in Eritrea...

I assume details will probably be as scarce as one can imagine, but in case you have ANY, I will be delighted to hear it.


Felix

[Felix Muelas]

MattFoster,

I hope you enjoy these other two...

Felix

[fines]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Quintin,

The title of the thread is "Suppose World War II hadn't happened..."

Unfortunately IT happened.

Felix

Hmm, I'm not sure if I'd say "unfortunately it happened". I feel quite good about the shortest thousand years in German history ending in 1945... I live here and would not have taken too easily to wearing brown shirts!

[Barry Boor]

This thread hasn't quite developed in the way I had hoped. I'm not questioning whether the war should or should not have taken place; I was just looking for comments regarding the way people think motor racing at the top level might have developed.

Disregarding the exact class of racing that this Alfa Romeo would have taken part in, I imagine a scenario where maybe both Alfa and Auto Union began to out perform Mercedes as rear-engined technology became more understood, and so by the mid fourties, rear-engined single seaters would have proliferated. Thus pre-empting the Cooper revolution by close on 15 years.

The BRM V.16 would have had it's engine at the back, but would still have been too complex to be a sucess, and only Enzo Ferrari would have persisted in putting that huge lump of metal in front of the driver, because according to him, that is where it SHOULD be.....

So come on guys - HYPOTHESIZE !!!!!

[MattFoster]

Thanks Felix.

Does anyone know if this Alfa actually raced?

Cheers
Matt

[Barry Boor]

No, sadly, I don't believe it ever did! Just a bit of testing.

[MattFoster]

I think it was probably the most beautiful GP ever.

I wonder if they have it at the ALfa Romeo Museum?

Cheers
Matt

[Darren]

Just to be a contrarian, I think had World War 2 not happened, Alfa's grand prix record would not be as good as it is. The 158 and 159 wouldn't have been dominant and quite likely Ferrari and Maserati would have been more interested in grand prix earlier on.

[Don Capps]

We are forgetting that with the AAA actually adopting the AIACR Grand Prix formula in 1938, that perhaps the USA would have finally begun so tentative steps towards making it a truly international formula. Perhaps the Indy 500 and one or two other events could have been truly interantional events and with US cars also racing in Europe.

[MattFoster]

Darren,

You make a very good point. Alfa was the only team trully ready at the start of the official WDC. If WW2 hadn't had happened I am sure that other manufacturers would have had the equipment to give Alfa a good run for their money.

Cheers
Matt

[Flicker]

Matt,
Check about Alfa Romeo exposition here:
http://www.museoalfa.../qtvr_liv-1.htm
and find 512...

[kennewell]

Obviously Mr. Boor has nothing better to do during whilst awaiting the rise of the North Sea! So...in answer to his ponderings....

Motor-racing would have taken a completely different turn insofar as design is concerned:
(1) Enzo would've stayed with Alfa and there never would have been a Ferrari company. (Michael Schumacher would have driven last year for Vanwall).
(2) All F1 cars now would have 24-cylinder engines and be of at least 8 litres capacity.
(3) The F1 WC as we know it would have commenced in 1940, with the first Champion being Seaman.
(4) Coventry-Climax never would have appeared because without the War they would have had no reason to develop the fire-pump engine that became the basis for that eventually used in the Lotus Elite.
------------------------------

The question is, if the second World War had not happened at all, this car would have challenged Mercedes and Auto Union, but where do you think racing might have gone from there? [/B][/QUOTE]

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by kennewell
(1) Enzo would've stayed with Alfa and there never would have been a Ferrari company.

So maybe the Ferraris of today would be Ricarts?;)

Originally posted by kennewell
(3) The F1 WC as we know it would have commenced in 1940, with the first Champion being Seaman.

THAT is a WEIRD statement, to put it mildly! Poor Seaman would have not saved his life regardless of whether the War would have happened or not...

Felix

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
I think Hans could answer that better than I, but you don't build a 10 km track that could hold 1 million spectators and 350.000 cars (Nixon's numbers) in a week, so I guess much of the work must have been finished before the war begun.

No, Hans cannot give an answer but he would sure like to know himself.

[Roger Clark]

It is intereseting to consider what Alfa romeo might have done and achieved.

(1) would the 158 been as successful. Dont't forget that Farina won the 1940 Trippoli Grand Prix at an average speed some 6% faster than Lang in 1939. Obvioously a 1940 W165 would have been faster, but 6% is a very large improvement in one year, and more than Mercedes ever achieved in the 30s.

(2) would the 512 have raced/been successful/changed the course of racing history? Again, we can only speculate, but Wilfredo Ricart's designs for Alfaweren't exactly brilliant successes when they reached the track.

On another aspect of Barry's original question. One effect would surely have been that the long road to British domination of Grand Prix racing would not have been started. Brooklands would probably have continued for some years and the multitude of ex-airfield circuits which provided the basis of post-war British racing would not have existed.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Don´t forget that Farina won the 1940 Trippoli Grand Prix at an average speed some 6% faster than Lang in 1939

Oh yes, please forget it!

I don´t want to make this thing "casus belli", but it always call my attention when a figure is quoted. Six percent? That sounds like the "definitive" argument!

But I only got 4.32% on my calculations, based on both the times and average speeeds, as follows (to avoid misunderstandings)

30 laps each year, 244.20 miles

1939 Lang took 1h59m12.36 at av speed 122.90 mph
1940 Farina took 1h54m16.49 at av speed 128.22 mph

128.22 is 104.328% of 122.90 (4.3% excess)
122.90 is 95.85% of 128.22 (4.15% defect)

As far as the fastest lap of the race, figures are as follows:

1939 Lang 3m43.77 130.94 mph
1940 Farina 3m40.91 132.66 mph

Again, the difference is not 6% but a mere 1.31%

And finally, the pole (astonishing time from Farina in 1940, simply 6 seconds faster than Biondetti, second on the grid with one of the other 158s) 3m37.85
Lang´s best practice time from 1939 (he was second on the grid, being beaten by Villoresi´s streamliner Maserati) was 3m42.35

I will spare you the calculations, but the differences between them constitute a 2.06%.

Although I also think that the way ahead might have been on the Alfa camp, let´s behave! I do not really think that Alfa would have beaten MB fair and square in 1940 in the Voiturette camp, always "inventing" that MB would have developped their car pointing in the same direction as Alfa was doing at the time...

Felix

[Roger Clark]

Felix

Thankyou for correcting the error in my mental calculations, but I still think that we shouldn't forget a 4.3% improvement in race average speed. I'm not sure what you mean by your final sentance. The evidence can only suuggest that the Alfas would have, at least, been fighting with te Mercedes

[Darren]

What we're missing is a reason for the non-occurance of WW2. Does it make a difference to think about what would have happened if the war hadn't occurred for different reasons? Yes, and I'll attempt to sketch why.

Scenario 1: WW2 doesn't occur because the German public doesn't vote Hitler into office in 1932 due to vigorous campaigning from an alliance of former Weimar social democrats, communists and frightened middle class burgers. The NSDAP collapses under internal faction fighting, and the new German administration concentrates on cutting public spending to meet WW1 reparation obligations. Auto Union and Mercedes have their subsidies cut, and german science remains starved of funds. Hence German grand prix dominance never eventuates; rather, Mercedes emerges as an equal, sometimes lesser, sometimes greater, competitor. Ferrari still splits from Alfa - that has nothing to do with the war.

Scenario 2: WW2 doesn't occur because a group of old-fashioned Prussian generals, tired of Hitler's control of the army, has him assassinated on the eve of the march into the Sudetenland. Mercedes, well established by this stage, is aided by the interim government's willingness to promote continued German dominance in international affairs. Mussolini quickly discovers that his plans had been premised largely on Germany's war economy footing, and the Italia economy collapses, taking Ferrari and Maserati with it. Alfa refocuses on the agricultural market, forcing it to withdraw from racing.

Scenario 3: Japan, deprived of Axis support due to Germany's retreat from its war footing, contents itself with China and doesn't make a play for Asia-Pacific. Ford seeks export markets in Europe and thus starts to particpate in European motorsport through its European agencies. By 1945, Cadillac and Packard have begun campaigns.

Etc etc. Anyway, you see where I'm going with this.

[Barry Boor]

Darren, I can see exactly how your reasoning works, and have to agree that I see logic in all 3 scenarios.

This is exactly the sort of conjecture I was hoping for when I started this thread. I know it's all totally meaningless, but it's nice to theorise once in a while, isn't it ?

Certainly the first scenario where Mr. Hilter did not come to power is the most thought provoking. Had that not happened it would definitely have been extremely unlikely that Mercedes and Auto Union would have had the cash to develop their cars to such a dominant degree.

To take it further, I think that race car development would have slowed, and Alfa Romeo would probably have been the leading marque well into the fifties.

But then along would have come Cooper, and the rest is not history, it's fact.

[Darren]

Well, no. Without all that Marshall Plan money floating around Europe I'm not sure that the Old Dart would have been that successful. At the risk of diverting the topic and causing tweed-clad consternation, on the whole it seems to me that without WW2 Great Britain would not have been too great in the forties.

[marion5drsn]

After acquiring the book,"Quicksilver" and studying the M165 engine it becomes apparent that the W165 was superior to the other cars at that time. This engine was headed toward a near 1000 HP goal.
The only problem might be the bottom end of the engine as it was equipped with a ball and roller bearing crankshaft. That may not have withstood the output of the top end of the engine. One of the apparent things in his book is the camshaft system seems to be ahead of Auto Union. I redrew the cam lobes on this engine from 288 degrees to 328 degrees in increments of 10 degrees and found some mistakes and these would have been found out over a period of time. One of the problems in cams seems to be that an error made at the first of the drawing just accumulates and is far worse at the last of the drawing. The most difficult phase of doing this is making sure that one is not adding to the problem instead of solving it. After doing this the lobe looks much smoother on the tangent points. I feel I can recommend this book to anyone interested in the 1930's cars. M. L. Anderson

[Ray Bell]

Thank you, Marion, for resurrecting this thread.... I've never seen it before! ...and I go to a lot of trouble when I return from my breaks to try and go through them all...

My scenario would be the revolt of the Generals, or the populace in general, with the assassination or incarceration of Hitler, but a few of the various hypotheses don't gel with me...

Marshall Plan money not around? Well, maybe not, but look at all that lovely money the poms wouldn't have spent on funerals and tombstones... in fact, what we see here is a shift of the money away from the people who shelled out a lot towards racing, so it's even possible there might have been more available for patronage of the style of the thirties, maybe even enough to prop up the V16 BRM?

M-B and Auto Union continuing - without Seaman, without the SS on their backs, and with a 1.5-litre formula that would give M-B the edge... and with the knowledge that the de Dion rear ends could tame A-U layouts and hence a potential to experiment (in the M-B camp) with mid-engined layouts...

Drivers who were spared further life endangerment might have died, too, but maybe we'd better not go down that path...

An interesting one is Ferrari...

With his agreement made on the termination of the Alfa contract, he would have been sitting back watching this development... what would he have done? Kept the engine in the front in the face of evidence emerging from the north that the other end was better?

I think not...

And poor old BRM... that centrifugal supercharger that was the bane of all their lives, would it have got a run had not its worth in aircraft been so conclusively proved (and its reliability been perfected) in the dark war years?

Probably not....

So, with speeds rising, BRM showing strength, Ferrari stepping in and proving more than a match for the dying Maseratis and upstaging his old employers, a match between BRM, M-B, Ferrari and Auto Union would lead to such events that by 1947 there would be a call for a 2-litre unsupercharged F1, perhaps with a 1-litre supercharged option (probably, in fact)...

Now we can all get on with some theorising...

Thanks, Barry.

[quintin cloud]

I would add the 1939 AIACR championship would see the final leg run at Monza of which a champion would decaired, aswell as the championship in 1940 whould have been run over 5 legs

IX Grand Prix de Belgique
XXXIIII Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France
XII Großer Preis von Deutschland
VII Großer Preis der Schweiz
XVIII °Gran Premio d'Italia

And how knows maybe Alfa Romeo whould have taken on the Mercedes Benz's and Auto Unions and WIN

[Rob29]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by quintin cloud
[B]I would add the 1939 AIACR championship would see the final leg run at Monza of which a champion would decaired, aswell as the championship in 1940 whould have been run over 5 legs
I believe the 1939 Italian GP was not cancelled due to outbreak of war, but lack of a circuit.Demolition of Monza started Sep 12 1938,and rebuilding was not competed untill after the war.1940 Italian GP was moved to Pescara in June 1940,then cancelled in July. I just been re-reading my 7 volumes of Monza history,which I bought from a stall at Silverstone about 20 years ago for £10.

[ry6]

A lot of interesting conjecture.
Certainly the "war" must have speeded up research and development by about 20 years?
Whatever, the Alfa is truly a beauty.

[Ray Bell]

An interesting point...'

Motor Sport mentions that a fuel mix developed during the war for fighter aircraft was the key to keeping the BMWs reliable during the Brabham-BMW years... a bit of history to be changed there..

[Vitesse2]

A few points to ponder:
1 Whether or not the Italian GP had taken place in 1939 it wouldn't have counted towards the championship, because it would have been a voiturette race - no races to the GP Formula on Italian soil in 1939, remember? That's why Mercedes built their voiturettes for Mellaha!!!
2 I read somewhere, can't remember where, that a new GP formula was planned for 1941, which was going to be 4.5 litre u/s, 1.5 litre s/c (as eventually introduced after the war).
3 Auto Union already had a 1500cc s/c car on the drawing board in 1939
4 Does anyone seriously think the M-B voiturettes WOULDN'T have been developed further - they were built and tested in about ten minutes flat!

[Ray Bell]

Aha... that's a point, the voiturette races on Italian soil... and without Hitler there to put the screws on old Benito, then that would have stuck!

And a warm welcome, too, Speedy...

[Vitesse2]

Thanks Ray!!

Try these for size:
1 There would have been a fifth GP in 1939 - Donington was scheduled for September 30th.
2 Would British racing have continued up the technical blind alley that was the Brooklands specials or would it have looked to the continent? We only had two permanent road circuits in 1939: Crystal Palace and Donington (or three if you count Brooklands Mountain) - Silverstone, Goodwood etc would never have existed since they were wartime airfields - so would racing on public roads have been legalised as in N.Ireland and the Isle of Man? Jersey already had a sizeable tourist industry and revived it with motor racing after the war.
3 French pride would have demanded a successor to Bugatti - even more money would have been poured into the bottomless pit that was the CTA-Arsenal; it still wouldn't have worked though. But what if they'd given the money to Talbot or Delahaye.....
4 Surely increasing cost and speed would have meant a decrease in engine size during the forties, especially for s/c cars. Taking Tripoli as an example, Farina's Alfa 158 was faster than Lang's MB W154 only two years earlier: the Merc had an engine twice the size of the Alfa!

[Rob29]

Donington did not count towards the championship in 37 & 38,so why would it in 39?

[fines]

I don't think Vitesse's point was about the championship, rather the road racing influence in Britain that could have developed from Donington.

About the 'Voiturette GP' in Monza, I think we discussed it before, IMHO there's no evidence the race would've been no championship round because it wouldn't have been run for GP cars. See Indianapolis in the twenties and fifties and 1952/3!

[David J Jones]

Just a thought

There would have been no FIA !

The scenario I have started to picture is one where AH invades and conquers Poland and manages to negotiate peace with GB after taking France because Chamberlain is succeeded by Lord Halifax as PM.

The AIACR continue to rule motorsport and a formula in which the main representation is 1.5litre s/c comes in with effect from 1941 when motor racing restarts.

Korpsfuhrer Huhlein takes control of the AIACR and everyone has to be happy that Lang is declared the official 1939 European Champion in September 1940.

Despite the valiant efforts of Raymond Mays and Peter Berthon the E type ERA is a failure and Britain takes no significant part at all in Motor Racing.........

I 'm still thinking this one through........... I shall return......

Vairy Interesting..........

[bobbo]

Barry:
Sorry it took so long to repond to this thread. Ie been busy doing work on the house (Yes, there are a FEW things more important than THF, but not many!) and haven't explored new threads. I am a science fiction junkie and especially enjoy "alternative history" stuff. This thread gives me an idea to write an outline for an "Alternative History" of racing. Should be fun, hope to share it later.

Bobbo

[Barry Lake]

I hadn't seen this thread before, either, and I have to admit I have just rushed through it quite quickly.

The thread, after a faltering start, has fired up well. I find it all very interesting, especially when pondering the reasons why WWII might not have happened, and at what period in time this reason appeared. The timing would have an enormous influence on the subsequent history.

But the most interesting thought that leapt out at me is Roger Clark's regarding Britain's position.

Yes, they probably would have continued with Brooklands as their major racing venue, thereby continuing to divorce themselves from the European style GPs. The lack of wartime airfields to convert to race circuits would perhaps have left them with just one potential GP circuit - Donington Park.

Would this have been sufficient to spawn the motor racing industry that has grown since?

Perhaps Brands Hatch might still have evolved, and perhaps it still would have given rise to 500cc racing. On the other hand, as this (500cc Formula 3) was a measure invented, I believe, to get impoverished post WWII racers into motor sport, perhaps it wouldn't have.

And if it hadn't, there might have been no Cooper, no Coventry Climax, no Lotus, no British motor racing industry as we know it today.

So, no "kit car" GP cars with Cosworth engines, perhaps no - or certainly fewer - British drivers in F1, leaving it as a French/Italian/German dominated sport/business.

Someone with a good imagination and some serious study could perhaps make a good motor racing novel out of all this.

[Barry Boor]

I confess I'm tickled silly that this thread has returned.

Keep the theorising going chaps.

I'm off to watch the Ascari/Farina programme on digital now.

[David McKinney]

I don't want to get into all this - too much thinking makes my brain hurt.
But I couldn't help noticing BL's reference to 500cc Formula 3. I suspect this formula, or something like it, would have happened war or no, because its beginnings were in a cheap racing club down in the West Country of England in the late 1930s. Chaps such as Dick Caesar and the Fry cousins used to pound around grass fields in very basic machinery usually based on GNs powered by motorbike engines. It was letters from these blokes to the mtoor mags during the war, when there wasn't much else to do, that gave rise to the 500 movement afterwards.
On the other hand, who's to say how much the class would have taken off without so many young men returning to civvy street and looking for something to keep some excitement in their lives?

[Ray Bell]

Like Moss, Collins etc?

...reliving the excitement of bomb-shelter drills at school, etc...

[Vitesse2]

Following David J Jones thread - what about the GP Alta, which might have shown more promise than the ERA???
To Rob and fines: my point was both and/or neither - after all we're in the realm of fantasy here, aren't we? Surely a full-blown Donington GP has as much, if not more right to be a Grand Epreuve than a two heat race in Bremgarten (1939 Swiss GP).