55 replies to this topic

[alansart]

With the news yesterday that one of the big sponsorship deals that Brawn GP agreed with Henkel over the summer was put together by an ex-employee, acting without authorisation and would not be honoured, it got me thinking how many other arrangements over the years have gone pear shaped. There have been a few dreamers and a certain amount of fraud has occurred - Essex and the Southern Organs deal for example and I'm sure there are many more!

Racing is big money now, but how much of this went on before cars became mobile advertising hoardings?

[kayemod]

Lola and Mastercard was a good one, at least it might have been for Mastercard. Seems that Lola didn't read the small print in the contract about stage payments etc, their excuse was that they didn't understand what they'd signed up to. They though that big money was coming their way to finance their hopeless F1 venture, but they ended up getting virtually nothing.

[alansart]

Lola and Mastercard was a good one, at least it might have been for Mastercard. Seems that Lola didn't read the small print in the contract about stage payments etc, their excuse was that they didn't understand what they'd signed up to. They though that big money was coming their way to finance their hopeless F1 venture, but they ended up getting virtually nothing.

That was a strange one. Lola had been around a long time and you would have thought they would have realised it wasn't going to work.

[sonar]

If you think about it, it's actually rather sad, isn't it: that a sport like Formula 1 would not be able to exist, unless teams dress up their cars to look like giant billboards.....

[kayemod]

If you think about it, it's actually rather sad, isn't it: that a sport like Formula 1 would not be able to exist, unless teams dress up their cars to look like giant billboards.....

True, and at the moment I'm reading Maurice Hamilton's book Williams. As late as 1970, Frank W was doing annual sponsorship deals with Dunlop for £10,000, and BP for £2,000, it's all a sort of Parkinson's Law really though isn't it, the whole game expands to absorb whatever funds are available. If the likes of RBS and ING, sorry not very good examples those, I'll start again, if the likes of Virgin, Panasonic, Marlboro etc suddenly lost interest and took their money away, then racing might be forced to go back to something like it was in the 70s & 80s, driver retainers included.

Ps. Has anyone done a thread search? I'm sure we must have had discussions on this subject before.

[alansart]

True, and at the moment I'm reading Maurice Hamilton's book Williams. As late as 1970, Frank W was doing annual sponsorship deals with Dunlop for £10,000, and BP for £2,000, it's all a sort of Parkinson's Law really though isn't it, the whole game expands to absorb whatever funds are available. If the likes of RBS and ING, sorry not very good examples those, I'll start again, if the likes of Virgin, Panasonic, Marlboro etc suddenly lost interest and took their money away, then racing might be forced to go back to something like it was in the 70s & 80s, driver retainers included.

Ps. Has anyone done a thread search? I'm sure we must have had discussions on this subject before.

I did a thread search and couldn't find anything, but it probably has been touched on before.

Well Virgin are looking for success on the cheap http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/80589 Panasonic have possibly gone with Toyota and do Marlboro still fund Ferrari?

When I started racing in 1979, I could get little deals. Free plugs for stickers on the car, Spax gave me dampers at cost plus re-conned my old ones free. Bearing in mind I was only doing F750 it was pretty good. It didn't last long though

Unfortunately I doubt if racing will ever go back to the old days - Times have changed.

[D-Type]

Way back when, didn't Ferrari switch from Pirelli to Englebert because of a dispute about the size of retainer/ sponsorship that Pirelli would pay? I understand that Stirling Moss's options post-Vanwall were severely limited by his personal BP sponsorship and other teams having Esso or Mobil sponsorship.
But that's a different issue from sponsors not coming up with their promises.
How about the Perry MCarthy / Andrea Moda mess, the details which I can't remember?

[Chezrome]

I can't shake the feeling that motorracing is run for 20 percent on sponsors, the rest on laundering money.

[rdmotorsport]

I can't shake the feeling that motorracing is run for 20 percent on sponsors, the rest on laundering money.

Oooooo you cynic you !

[Chezrome]

Oooooo you cynic you !

I am sorry... but for what was Midland in F1 racing? Or Spyker? Shady indeed...

[Giraffe]

Unfortunately I doubt if racing will ever go back to the old days - Times have changed.

Bloody hell Alan, that's profound!!! Where's me violin???

[rdmotorsport]

I am sorry... but for what was Midland in F1 racing? Or Spyker? Shady indeed...

true

[Barry Boor]

The multitude of logos on our machine back in 1972 trumpeting CAPRICORN Sea Food led many to believe that a decent sum of money was being invested in PCMRT. In fact, what they paid was for the painting of their logos etc and nothing else.

Apologies to those who have heard all this before.

Edited by Barry Boor, 15 December 2009 - 20:53.

[RA Historian]

Panasonic have possibly gone with Toyota and do Marlboro still fund Ferrari?

Yes, Marlboro is still paying big bucks to sponsor Ferrari, even though they cannot splash their name on the cars as before. However, it is still making itself known; viz: the post race press conference when a Ferrari driver is on the podium. The announcer always mentions the driver as driving for "Scuderia Marlboro Ferrari". Not to mention the red with white trim, still reminiscent of the Marlboro logo.

The very same with Penske Racing. Two of their cars are still sponsored by Marlboro, even though they cannot advertise in the States. The cars still carry the Marlboro chevron, although instead of "Marlboro" the wording is "Penske". Marlboro is still said to be paying $10 million US a year per car to Penske. All very much a wink, wink situation, as everyone still knows that Marlboro is the sponsor. The value of longevity of sponsorship combined with a very recognizable symbol, I would imagine.

Re Panasonic, wrong forum I know and I apologize, but I read somewhere that they may follow Kubayashi wherever he may go.

Tom

[Giraffe]

The multitude of logos on our machine back in 1972 trumpeting CAPRICORN Sea Food led many to believe that a decent sum of money was being invested in PCMRT. In fact, what they paid was for the painting of their logos etc and nothing else.

Apologies to those who have heard all this before.

Surely your Director of Sponsorship couldn't have negotiated it on that basis, Barry? Or did he wind up with a garage full of defrosting King Prawns???

[Keke Rosberg]

In 1994, there was the BROKER sponsorship that didn't yield a penny for the Sauber team, after one third of the season, Mercedes assisted Sauber in acquiring a little bit of rescue money from the TISSOT brand.

[Maldwyn]

Remember Prince Malik at Arrows with his "t-minus" brand. It never amounted to anything other than signage on the cars as far as I remember.

[alansart]

The multitude of logos on our machine back in 1972 trumpeting CAPRICORN Sea Food led many to believe that a decent sum of money was being invested in PCMRT. In fact, what they paid was for the painting of their logos etc and nothing else.

Apologies to those who have heard all this before.

Wasn't that the case with a lot of the smaller teams. Promised bags of money but eventually receiving very little.

Barry's Connew web page is a good read

[Mansell4PM]

I am sorry... but for what was Midland in F1 racing? Or Spyker? Shady indeed...

Well Spyker at least had sports cars to sell. Presumably they thought they could benefit from those noticing they were a Formula One team having the marque in mind if considering the purchase of a supercar. Ferrari's road car division is perceived by some to benefit from the F1 team's activities in the same way. Was Spyker's brief involvement comparable to that of De Tomaso in F1?

I had heard as well that Spyker were wanting to explore putting Ferrari engines in their road cars too - presumably the F1 engine supply contract gave them an 'in' at Maranello to discuss this further. A very expensive way to open discussions though.

A fair point about Midland though. Does the 'asset' of a place on the grid (which in itself has a sizeable value should you wish to move on) and the chance to sell sponsorship associated with F1 make it viable to remain resolutely in the last two rows of the grid for a season or two and still make a profit? If so, it is a sad reflection on current F1. At least Force India (the current incarnation of this team) seem to be attempting to return to the level of competitiveness shown by Jordan when the team was so named.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Mansell4PM
Well Spyker at least had sports cars to sell. Presumably they thought they could benefit from those noticing they were a Formula One team having the marque in mind if considering the purchase of a supercar. Ferrari's road car division is perceived by some to benefit from the F1 team's activities in the same way. Was Spyker's brief involvement comparable to that of De Tomaso in F1?

De Tomaso built their own car, including a cast monocoque IIRC...

It was a good attempt at going F1 and nothing to do with sponsorship. I can't see it comparing to Spyker's involvement.

[David McKinney]

I think MPM was suggesting that De Tomaso got into F1 to promote their road cars, as did Spyker

[kayemod]

De Tomaso built their own car, including a cast monocoque IIRC...

It was a good attempt at going F1 and nothing to do with sponsorship. I can't see it comparing to Spyker's involvement.

Possibly, but the car was massively overweight and hopelessly uncompetitive. De Tomaso didn't contribute much apart from the basic car, Williams provided engines and everything else. The factory pretty much lost interest after Piers Courage was killed, and Frank Williams ended the season much deeper in debt than he's been at the start. If that counts as sponsorship, you'd be better off without it, and I doubt if there was even any plus side for De Tomaso themselves, so a dead loss all round.

[Mansell4PM]

I think MPM was suggesting that De Tomaso got into F1 to promote their road cars, as did Spyker

That's what I was getting at.

However, if Spyker didn't make their own F1 car, who did? I thought with all the Toro Rosso/ Super Aguri 'customer car' controversy it was concluded that teams had to make their own car? Toro Rosso seem to circumvent this by making a car using Red Bull 'technology', and having detail differences.

Anyhow, wildly OT and not really TNF stuff, so we maybe better park this.

[Ray Bell]

Oh, that De Tomaso?

I was thinking about the 1.5-litre one that they ran themselves at Monza.

[rallen]

I was going to mention the Sauber Broker Sponsership, incidently what was Broker? and did Sauber get anywhere with legal action?

[kayemod]

Oh, that De Tomaso?

I was thinking about the 1.5-litre one that they ran themselves at Monza.

Yes, but we were talking about car manufacturers like Spyker and De Tomaso trying to get a positive association between their road cars and a similarly named F1 effort. That 1.5 litre De Tomaso was 1961/2, and the company weren't involved with road cars until the Vallelunga first appeared in 1963, that's why we were all talking about the Frank Williams run car in 1970.

Edited by kayemod, 16 December 2009 - 13:57.

[Terry Walker]

On another thread somewhere there is reference to the fraudster and fantasist who, apart from stinging posh hotels for a fortune, was so convincing that his imaginary company had big sponsorship signs on an Aussie V8 Supercar team until the penny dropped - and a penny was about all that dropped.

[Keke Rosberg]

I was going to mention the Sauber Broker Sponsership, incidently what was Broker? and did Sauber get anywhere with legal action?

I seem to recall that it's an Investment Magazine

[Mansell Madgwick]

There were the Shannon-sponsored Fortis in the early 90s - Shannon were around for about 6 months and then disappeared. They were Italian-based weren't they?

Personally I liked it when cars were covered in little sponsor stickers and pre-internet you never knew who they were. Like Ted Lapidus on AGS and Magnobosco on the Coloni in 1990. Or the March in the 1991 Canadian Grand Prix which had millions of local businesses plastered all over it.

[sherer]

talking Ferrari and Malboro. Philip Morris own the whole car so if anyone wants to sponsor Ferrari they have to buy the space back from Philip Morris ( the parent company of Malboro). Not sire if they actually make any money back this way. Virgin wanted a similar deal with Brawn but they wouldn't go for it hence the Manor link up instead.

Remember the Sanyo sponsorship of Honda, they pulled out at the last minute leading to the "Earth Dreams" car

[alansart]

Remember the Sanyo sponsorship of Honda, they pulled out at the last minute leading to the "Earth Dreams" car

Yep, my daughter had her name on it,

[Chezrome]

Well Spyker at least had sports cars to sell.

That remains to be seen. Journalists have tried hard to establish how many cars Spyker sells... and have found out that the sales mentioned in the annual mandatory taxreports are half-frauds.

Spyker builds cars and sells cars... but how many and if the company is a legitimate business, I still don't know. Now I read Spyker wants to buy Saab. WTF?

[TennisUK]

De Tomaso built their own car, including a cast monocoque IIRC...

I have a funny feeling it was made by a certain company named Dallara, I might be wrong, though...

[TennisUK]

I have a funny feeling it was made by a certain company named Dallara, I might be wrong, though...

Ah, as you were - I think it was designed by Giampaolo Dallara who was then an employee of de Tomaso, and it was actually fabricated by De Tomaso.

Edited by TennisUK, 16 December 2009 - 21:03.

[D-Type]

Ah, as you were - I think it was designed by Giampaolo Dallara who was then an employee of de Tomaso, and it was actually fabricated by De Tomaso.

According to David Hodges, the cast monocoque V-12 engined was announced but car never got beyond the planning stage and the Frank Williams run car was built by Dallara

[ensign14]

Leyton House; what the heck WAS that? Just a branding exercise?

Loads of Larrousse collaborators; didn't 2 of them get done for murder?

Brand Motorsports in F3k; I think they lasted one race and that was that. With Gary Paffett as well, so it wasn't with a numpty.

And then there's Payton Tapp Watkins.

[Thundersports]

Brand Motosport; was that the one with Paffet and Minassion? Along with David "kid" Jensen?

Edited by Thundersport, 17 December 2009 - 00:12.

[FredF1]

I seem to recall that it's an Investment Magazine

I always thought that it was a front for Mercedes who were trying to get into F1 on the quiet. I seem to recall Sauber entered F1 a year ahead of their planned schedule at the insistence of MB.


Re: Sponsors who never stumped up.....

I remember reading somewhere of the opposite scenario where an enthusiastic sponsor was fleeced of a large sum of money for no signage on the car at all. Possibly by one of the garagiste teams in the early '80's.

[alansart]

Re: Sponsors who never stumped up.....

I remember reading somewhere of the opposite scenario where an enthusiastic sponsor was fleeced of a large sum of money for no signage on the car at all. Possibly by one of the garagiste teams in the early '80's.

There's a story of a 70's F1 driver who started the season in an old car made to look new while his famous team mate had the new one with all the good bits. By the 3rd or 4th race the drivers sponsorship money arrived and he was then promptly kicked out of the team!

Edited by alansart, 17 December 2009 - 10:13.

[Mansell Madgwick]

Loads of Larrousse collaborators; didn't 2 of them get done for murder?

Didier Calmels murdered his wife and went to prison - the Larrousse yearbook 1989 mentions 'the awful problems of our friend Didier' and that's it! Their Japanese ESPO sponsorship fell through due to some dodgy financial dealings at the end of 1990 as well.

[ensign14]

The other one was Klaus Walz. Gunned down in a battle with police.

[Valiant 273 Commando]

Amyone remember the MegaTron-Arrows deal?

[ghinzani]

The other one was Klaus Walz. Gunned down in a battle with police.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten that story. Died in a shootout at a Hotel didnt he? Company he fronted was called Comstock IIRC.

[Kevan]

Amyone remember the MegaTron-Arrows deal?

The rebranding of the BMW turbo engines after BMW pulled out? Must admit I had to look up the details of it, but apparently the name came from a computer leasing company formerly run by an executive of Arrows sponsor USF&G- (an insurance company & asset management company apparently), and the engines prepared by Heini Mader. Was there anything dodgy about the deal or USF&G?- I can't remember whether there was or not
http://www.grandprix.../eng-megat.html

On a similar-sounding track there was Moneytron who sponsored Onyx in their first season- Didn't the fairly eccentric Mr van Rossem end up doing time for fraud?

Edited by Kevan, 20 December 2009 - 12:16.

[tyrrellp346wheels]

didn't grand prix international magazine agree to sponser arrows in 1983 but didn't bother paying , or am i dreaming

[Pink Snail]

didn't grand prix international magazine agree to sponser arrows in 1983 but didn't bother paying , or am i dreaming

Don`t know the technicalities of the finance side of things but Arrows did have their cars in Grand Prix International colours in `83. Steve Hartley ran the car in the HFO up to the end of 2008 and it looked good too! IIRC the car was pedalled by Marc Surer and Thierry Boutsen in `83 - I would have to check my back copies of GPI mags (but they are in the loft at the moment!)

[RA Historian]

Amyone remember the MegaTron-Arrows deal?

As Kevin points out, I think that you may be confusing Megatron with Moneytron. Megatron was OK, Moneytron was, well, not Ok.

Tom

[Macca]

Didn't Surtees have some 'financial issues' in both 1974 and 1978?

And was it JS who told a potential sponsor that his son, who was to have driven for the team, was cr*p, thereby blowing the deal?

Paul M

[RA Historian]

Didn't Surtees have some 'financial issues' in both 1974 and 1978?

I think that Team Surtees always had financial problems.
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 20 December 2009 - 18:43.

[Charlieman]

Virgin wanted a similar deal with Brawn but they wouldn't go for it hence the Manor link up instead.

One has to wonder whether anyone at Manor has read Tom Bower's biography of Branson.