23 replies to this topic

[BritishV8]

Can any of you please help me put a production date on the first FWE engine?

I know the basic info:
(1) an FWE is basically like an FWB except with a smaller cylinder bore (66.7mm).
(2) the FWE was mainly used in the Lotus Elite.
(3) Elite's first model year was 1958.

I've read that the FWE designation stood for "Featherweight - Elite". Did other builders besides Lotus use these engines? I'm researching the history of a specific Cooper T43 ("F2-19-57"). The appendix to the Doug Nye book on Cooper cars shows this particular car was built with an FWE engine (specifically "FWE/400/6/6919"), but it's the only mention of FWE in the book and I suspect it's a mistake. Early race reports show that the car had an FWB engine when first raced. It has an FPF engine now. And the question has been raised: "Did the FWE designation even exist when this Cooper T43 was built?"

Thanks in advance!

[Ray Bell]

I admit to be largely guessing on this, but with an FWA and an FWB, it would seem that the sequence of development is designated by the suffix letter, the A, B or E... rather than it standing for anything.

[David McKinney]

Race programmes and reports of the time gave the size of Stoop's engine as 1220cc, so not a misprint

If you can tell us about the FWC and FWD engines, Ray, I'll bellieve you

[Peter Morley]

I think FWA means FeatherWeight Appliance and was the name give to it as a fire pump engine.

FWB has larger bore & longer stroke than an FWA, some were also used in firepumps.
FWE has the longer stroke FWB crank and the smaller bore FWA pistons & liners

Was FWC something like the 750cc engine used in that class at Le-Mans by Lotus?

[Lotus11Register]

With only a few shopping hours left before Christmas I must keep this very brief.

The FWE has the bore of an FWB and the shorter stroke of an FWA. This was Coventry-Climax's conservative solution to the Lotus request for an engine suitable for the Elite.

The FWC was a super short-stroke 750cc engine made for LeMans only, so the designation FWE probably had more to do with letter sequence than E for Elite.

The FWE engines that went into the Elite began in December 1958 with serial numbers starting at 7500. The serial number noted above (6919) doesn't seem appropriate for an FWE at all, being instead from late 1956.

[Ray Bell]

From a website:

"The FW Range and derivatives
The FW range became marinised as the FWM ( Featherweight Marine) and was very successful in this new role. Its development in this form was the last series of actual fire pump engines and was about 1400cc. A version of the smallest engine in the model range, the 750cc FWMB, was adapted (cheapened!) to suit the automotive industry's requirements in collaboration with the Rootes group, also based in Coventry. This engine, known at the time as the FWMA ( A for automotive) was to be fitted to the new Hillman Imp (although termed at the time 'Ajax project'), being built at the all-new and disastrously planned Linwood plant in Scotland. This was the company's last purely automotive venture. The engine suffered from under-development and despite constant upgrading was always beset by overheating and cooling problems.
Interestingly the 750cc FWMB was at this time producing the same power output as the original 1020 FW engine had and it had also shed some weight, now having the ability to be carried by two men rather than the four required for the FW. The FWMD was also experimented with as a diesel version, basis for the world's first diesel outboard motor, whilst the FWMC was used in a Lotus racing car with many special revisions and an entirely different cylinder head."

So I guess I was wrong, the suffix was expressly a sequential thing. And on another I found mention that the FWC was both the Le Mans 750cc engine and the Hillman Imp engine.

I don't think I believe that totally...

[David McKinney]

The serial number noted above (6919) doesn't seem appropriate for an FWE at all, being instead from late 1956.

I think (without checking) Stoop ran his F2 Cooper with an 1100 engine before converting it to, or replacing it with, an FWE

[bradbury west]

Des Hamill asserts, presumably from Climax records, that the 1st development FWE, as such, was fully bench tested by August 1956, so it seems a logical in-house experiment/development. I have not checked my Elite files for original time line for the type 14, nor Wally Hassan's book for further details. It may have been a logical move in the light of the 1300cc GT classes. Subsequently, Climax's main driver for the FWE was the prospect of selling 1000 units to ACBC.

The whole 750cc saga is essentially very simple, but takes a bit of explaining, variant over variant, FW and FWM, over the various years and applications.

Roger Lund

[David Birchall]

It would seem very unlikely that an FWE was fitted to a Cooper F2 car originally-why give away nearly 300cc?
As stated by others the FWE is an FWB with an FWA crank. The block has the bulges to accommodate the extra stroke length-present on FWB and FWE blocks but not on FWAs.

[cs3tcr]

Interestingly the 750cc FWMB was at this time producing the same power output as the original 1020 FW engine had and it had also shed some weight, now having the ability to be carried by two men rather than the four required for the FW.

That website clipping is full of errors, most notably this quote. I know for a fact that two men can lift the FWP without any issue, cause i've done it. The FWM is a little lighter, but still requires two men to carry it.

[David McKinney]

It would seem very unlikely that an FWE was fitted to a Cooper F2 car originally-why give away nearly 300cc?

Unlikely, perhaps. But true
Stoop was a club-racer. He wouldn't need a 1500cc engine as his priority wasn't F2. And, especially if - as I suspect - he started off with an 1100, he would have saved himself a few bob.
There were other FWE-engined F2-type Coopers racing in period - Bill de Selincourt is another driver ringing a bell in that direction

[BritishV8]

Thanks, gentlemen!

Stoop was a club-racer. He wouldn't need a 1500cc engine as his priority wasn't F2. And, especially if - as I suspect - he started off with an 1100, he would have saved himself a few bob.
There were other FWE-engined F2-type Coopers racing in period - Bill de Selincourt is another driver ringing a bell in that direction

I have to confess that Mr Stoop is a bit enigmatic to me... he apparently turned around in just one year and purchased another F2 Cooper: "F2-11-58" with FPF #1061. A quick Google check shows F2-11-58 selling at auction in April 2007: http://www.motorbase...-id/1524172603/ and then NOT selling in a second auction in May 2008: http://www.motorbase...y-id/168555445/

This source reports that de Selincourt purchased Dickie Stoop's first F2 Cooper http://www.ten-tenth...ad.php?t=112196

Dickie Stoop used F2-19-57 until early 1959, after which it passed to Bill de Selincourt. It was next heard of in 1964 hillclimbs with Sir Nicholas Williamson.

Any additional information on F2-19-57's history would be very gratefully received!

[David Birchall]

Unlikely, perhaps. But true
Stoop was a club-racer. He wouldn't need a 1500cc engine as his priority wasn't F2. And, especially if - as I suspect - he started off with an 1100, he would have saved himself a few bob.
There were other FWE-engined F2-type Coopers racing in period - Bill de Selincourt is another driver ringing a bell in that direction

Thank you for that info David. I was not aware of that. The FWE is certainly a nicer, more revvy engine. It is only recently that the FWB has benefited from development and started to make real power.

[David McKinney]

My understanding is that Stoop raced F2-19-57 in 1957, 1958 and the early part of 1959, but didn't race F2-11-58 until late 1960. The newer car had been raced in the preceding two seasons by Jimmy Stuart.

Bill de Selincourt had F2-19-57 in the middle of 1959, but I have no record of it after that apart from Williamson's use thereof in 1964

[Sharman]

My understanding is that Stoop raced F2-19-57 in 1957, 1958 and the early part of 1959, but didn't race F2-11-58 until late 1960. The newer car had been raced in the preceding two seasons by Jimmy Stuart.

Bill de Selincourt had F2-19-57 in the middle of 1959, but I have no record of it after that apart from Williamson's use thereof in 1964

David
Bill has just asked me for some photos of the 6th Sept bash, I have put a note in with them asking for details of where the car went. He is not due home until 14/01/10. Incidentally, he reckoned that driving that Cooper taught him more about motor racing than anything else
John

[David McKinney]

Thanks John
That would be great
Sadly, I fear all the gaps will never be filled

[BritishV8]

My understanding is that Stoop raced F2-19-57 in 1957, 1958 and the early part of 1959, but didn't race F2-11-58 until late 1960. The newer car had been raced in the preceding two seasons by Jimmy Stuart.

Bill de Selincourt had F2-19-57 in the middle of 1959, but I have no record of it after that apart from Williamson's use thereof in 1964

Well...

These race reports show Dickie Stoop driving a Cooper T43 with FWB engine: (presumably F2-19-57)
http://www.formula2.net/F258_2.htm (April 7, 1958)
http://www.formula2.net/F258_5.htm (May 10, 1958)

These race reports show Dickie Stoop driving a Cooper T43 with an FPF engine: (what car is this? could it be F2-11-58 mistakenly identified as a T43?)
http://www.formula2.net/F258_7.htm (May 26, 1958)
http://www.formula2.net/F258_8.htm (June 8, 1958)
http://www.formula2.net/F258_14.htm (July 27, 1958)

This race report shows Bill de Selincourt driving a Cooper T43 with an FWB engine: (presumably F2-19-57)
http://www.formula2.net/F259_7.htm (May 9, 1959)

[David McKinney]

I suspect they're all wrong
He would have used F2-19-57 for all those races, and never with an FPF engine, nor I suspect an FWB

Edited by David McKinney, 27 December 2009 - 11:30.

[D-Type]

I don't know if this list of Climax engines I copied from somewhere helps at all

Year Ref Bore Stroke cc Comments

1953 FW 1020 FW = Feather Weight, the original fire pump engine, 5000? produced

1954 FWA 72.4 66.7 1098 "Feather Weight Automobile" Le Mans Kieft. Lotus XI, etc
FWB 76.2 80.0 1460 35 produced
FWB-P 76.2 80.0 1460 Fire pump version of the FWB 700 produced
FWC 72.4 45.2 744 Short stroke FWA, Lotus XI Le Mans 1957
FWD Diesel
FWE 76.2 66.7 1216 Lotus Elite. 1355 built

FWM 645/745 Marine engine
FWMA 64.3 57.2 741
FWMB Productionised version of the FWMA developed for the Imp
1958 FWMC 745 Used by Lotus at Le Mans 1958 in practice only as it failed and the 1957 engine was used in the race
 
1962 FWMV 63.0 60.0 1498 V8 using FWM blocks
1963 FWMV 67.9 51.5 1495
1964 FWMV 72.4 45.5 1498  33 FWMVs produced [n total
1965 FWMW 54.1 40.6 1494 Flat 16 prototype

1952/1954 FPE 74.7 71.1 2493 The V8 'Godiva'. FPE=Fire Pump Engine (tongue in cheek)

1957 FPF 81.2 71.1 1475 Effectively half an FPE with bigger bore
1958 FPF 86.4 83.8 1960
1958 FPF 87.3 84.2 2015 by Alf Francis for Walker
1958 FPF 88.9 88.9 2207 by Climax
1959 FPF 94.0 89.9 2495
1961 FPF 81.9 71.1 1498 The MK2
1961 FPF 96.0 95.0 2750 Indianapolis

.
 

Edited by D-Type, 04 May 2017 - 17:36.

[RobMk2a]

I'm researching a lightweight TVR that had a Coventry Climax FWE fitted in say 1960-61. The number is FWE 400/24/7514. I have a copy of letter from G Densham Coventry Climax sales manager stating it was an early prototype that left their works 3rd Sept 1958. It was a prototype of the single carburettor 1220cc engine built for Lotus Cars Limited.

Does anyone know the engine numbers for the prototype Lotus Elites, it would be interesting to see which car the engine first fitted. Also does anyone know what the 24 in the engine number refers to.

Ps the CC engine is no longer in the TVR but I'm interested in putting together the history.

Thank you for your help.

Rob

[Garsted]

According to the Dennis Ortenburger book on the Elite, that engine number was fitted to series 1 chassis no 1005 (the 7th chassis listed)  There is no record of the car's country or owner.

the book says that the second prototype was delivered in May '58, and the first production car  sold  in Dec '58

 

Regards,

           Steve

[RobMk2a]

Steve,

Thank you I understand (by some sort of co-incidence in the circumstances) that 1005 was Sir John Whitmore's Elite 5NEV, which I understand was crashed at Monza in 1959. I've read only the engine and gearbox came back. Anyone know what happened to the engine after 59. The person who owns the TVR was told (by Archers Solihull) it or more likely the engine had been to Monza.

May be a coincidence but could be possible,

Does anyone know what the 24 in the engine number stands for.

Thanks

Rob

Edited by RobMk2a, 04 May 2017 - 15:46.

[Peter Morley]

I'm researching a lightweight TVR that had a Coventry Climax FWE fitted in say 1960-61. The number is FWE 400/24/7514. I have a copy of letter from G Densham Coventry Climax sales manager stating it was an early prototype that left their works 3rd Sept 1958. It was a prototype of the single carburettor 1220cc engine built for Lotus Cars Limited.

Does anyone know the engine numbers for the prototype Lotus Elites, it would be interesting to see which car the engine first fitted. Also does anyone know what the 24 in the engine number refers to.

Ps the CC engine is no longer in the TVR but I'm interested in putting together the history.

Thank you for your help.

Rob

 

Tony Mantle (Climax Engine Services) has the Climax engine records but they would presumably just say it was supplied to Lotus.

Clive Chapman (Classic Team Lotus) showed a Lotus Elite ledger to Philip Glenister on his restoration programme that restored an Elite.

[Garsted]

Steve,

Thank you I understand (by some sort of co-incidence in the circumstances) that 1005 was Sir John Whitmore's Elite 5NEV, which I understand was crashed at Monza in 1959. I've read only the engine and gearbox came back. Anyone know what happened to the engine after 59. The person who owns the TVR was told (by Archers Solihull) it or more likely the engine had been to Monza.

May be a coincidence but could be possible,

Does anyone know what the 24 in the engine number stands for.

Thanks

Rob

 

If the car was written off, that would explain why the Ortenburger book has no known owner or country location for it.

 

Steve