12 replies to this topic

[Ross Stonefeld]

This should probably be in the tech forum as well (Admins, can you make a copy?)

How much do you guys think Oil affects the cars performance? Granted there are rules as to the makeup of the oil, but every oil is going to be different. How much difference do you think it would make? There's an oil and lubricant brand being used in a certain junior championship by a certain incredibly successful team that is rumoured to give them an extra few HP (and in a low HP car thats gold baby, gold!)

[Megatron]

I have no clue but I do remember that Verstapen did some testing in the middle of the year with a "new Repsol oil", other than that it seems that you always hear about fuel and not much about the oil.

[Todd]

It depends on what the oil engineers are achieving. Reducing friction has obvious advantages, but so does cutting pumping losses and accepting higher operating temperatures. An ideal oil would be very thin, lubricate perfectly, and not break down due to high temperatures. Ferrari and Shell work together on these area.

Reducing friction leads to less loss of energy to friction. That is the obvious part of having more power make it to the wheels. In addition to that, the engine will run cooler and smaller heat exchangers can be used. That equals lower drag for better airodynamic performance.

Cutting pumping losses equals more power making it to the output shaft. This is why racing engines run dry sumps. The weight of a dry sump system is more, but the power that isn't lost due to windage more than makes up for it. Thinner oil reduces the energy needed to pump it around the engine and to the remote sump. That accomplishes the same thing a dry sump does, although not enough to do away with the dry sump too.

An oil that can stand higher heat without breaking down allows for a higher operating temperature engine. That means smaller radiators for oil and coolant, and the resultant reduction in drag.

These are the goals of a good racing oil. Teams also work with oil suppliers to analize their used oil. By looking at the trace elements of engine materials in used oil, the teams can tell what is wearing and at what rate. This helps with development and with identifying causes of failures.

[mhferrari]

Oil is vital, without it the engine would work only for a wee bit. But of course you knew that.

It is important and vital. The difference in oil could, as Todd say, could reduce drag. A good oil reduces temperatures and that is vital too. So oil is vital.

Say No to Traction Control!

[Ross Stonefeld]

I should have typed that different

I mean between teams

[mhferrari]

Different brands, but I don't really think a team has a decided advantage due to the type of the oil.

Sorry about not fully reading your question.

[Ali_G]

This maybe a change in topic slightly but now that there is a topic on oil I will mention it. Is there any case in the past where the teams have ever used a dry lubrication in either the engine or gearbox. I hear that there are some types of powders which would be coated to the insides of the engine or gearbox before assembly which works as good as any oil. Plus the car would be lighter as there would be no need for a pump.

Niall

[Top Fuel F1]

Ross:

In Mclaren for instance the Mobile Tri-Synthetic they use is not much different than the 5W-30W Mobile Tri-Synthetic I use in my Honda Vtec V6. There is also a 0W-30W Mobile Tri-Synthetic available commercially. An F1 engine only has to last for a race and does not need any temperature considerations for very cold temperatures and they can know that the high temp. will be within a certain range. However, the race car does have demand for extremely high flow rates. It's around these considerations that Mobile makes adjustments to the advatage of the race engine.

Best Regards;

[MacFan]

Mobil ran an ad campaign in the mid-80s when they were supplying Williams, in which they claimed their oil had shown 6bhp more than any other on Honda's dyno.

Ross, I used to hear rumours like this when I was racing karts - "X brand of oil gives you another 500rpm on the straight". I tested all the brands of oil I heard these claims for, and never found one better than Castrol R30/40, which karters have been using for many years. I imagine the rumours are started by the makers or promoters.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Nov 99, im riding from the Green man Inn to Silverstone for my audition with Haywood racing. The owner got a guy from NEO Synthetic oil to give me a lift, he was on his way to the Jordan factory for the day. He was telling me about his product, more power, blah blah. He mentioned they supplied Manor, and only Manor. Manor motorsport which has dominated Formula Renault, winning something like 6 times in 8 years (?). Also won F3 two years running now, and has only been in F3 for two years. I told the Haywood people, they scoffed. When I went to Aztec I told them and the Chief Engineer (former Factory Van Diemen team manager) said he'd heard of them and that they did some impressive stuff with bearings but they are horribly expensive. I heard stories of 9$ a quart of oil! Aztec said they'd look into it. One day the Aztec team manager is over at the Van Diemen factory getting some update kits for the cars. He sees empty NEO containers in the corner of the shop. Turns out the factory team was trying it out, claimed that it was blowing engines.

Duckhams Racing with Van Diemen - 2000 British Formula Ford champs

Manor Motorsport - 2000 Formula Renault Sport and British Formula 3 champions

Im going to ask for a test with some NEO lubricants Ill pay for the engine rebuild if I have to. Something is amiss!

[MacFan]

I'm going to start an oil company. I'll pay the best organised teams with the best drivers in all the junior formulae to use my oil, which will be as good as any other oil. Once these teams have won championships, which they will because they have the best people and the best drivers, I will sell my oil to most of the other teams in the junior formulae, at extortionate prices.

Am I being too cynical?;)

[Ross Stonefeld]

Im jusy saying, Manor was the only team using it and they were doing very well, especially in Renault where the tech rules are very tight.

VD was getting their buns burned by Mygales for the past few years, and now they win

Cant wait till im in F1

"he only got there because he had the best oil in juniors!"

[Top Fuel F1]

The F1 engine designers need an oil that is as thin as possible so it can be pumped around the engine as fast as possible, with the least possible loss of power. At the same time it also has to remain stable at high operating temperatures and it must not oxidize or evaporate significantly. Despite one of it's principle roles being to remove heat from bearing surfaces, it must also retain high film strength at extreme pressures and rubbing speeds. I believe it is well known that synthesized based oils (and not near-synthetic clones) are going to be used in the mixing of these oils used in F1 engines. I believe these well funded engine shops have the resources to test these materials in their designated Labs before having to make measurements via the car on the track.

Best Regards;