647 replies to this topic

[Sakae]

All I can say on that is, it's funny that you mention 'since mid season of 2009', as since then we've witnessed a different Red Bull on the track. A dominating one in pure speed, that is.

It's the same car what Webber has, did you noticed? Sometimes it's not what you have, but what you make with what you have. While we are on the same subject, didn't JB had the same car as RB, a guy who was shaking him for good part of the second half of the season? Lesson learnt in this is, that whilst a car is an integral part of the whole winning package, still someone has to ensure that it will cross the FL in P1. Vettel finished well because car was good, but I doubt that it's the only thing Horner needs to win the championship.

Edited by Sakae, 26 April 2010 - 20:19.

[noikeee]

Is there any background to this thread, and how this topic came about? People on this BB didn't like that his name is far too often in headlines, or what prompted all of this? The guy won some races, he is on the pole quite often, he doesn't do mistakes (at least no more than anyone else in paddock), so what's the problem? Considering late tone of the BB, perhaps more aptly this thread should be renamed if certain Renault's driver is overrated, because from what I read about him exceeds in fan's imagination anything what Vettel has accomplished. (500 posts, and no conclusion in sight).

Dude, you're a nutcase, that obsession can't be healthy. You're the one that keeps on bringing him up over and over and over again in a thread that is exclusively about your supposedly favourite driver. Why won't you focus on Seb then?

And of course people are going to rave about someone who just had 3 good races, it's always been like this and it'll always be, whatever driver it may be, people have short memories. In case you didn't notice people are disproportionally raving about Button and Rosberg too. But that doesn't matter, the only guy you like talking about is the famine, stuck with dirty clothes, low class pole that got saved from a life of miserable suffering thanks to the pure german manufacturer, and then proceeded to **** on it.

Either you have a crazy obsession with him, or are nuts enough to have been trolling us for some 4 years, I don't know which one's worse.

[bourbon]

nope, this year is the first one where STR doesn't use the RB cars....they run old year's car with some changes.
in the previous years they were running pretty much "same car, different engine"

I wasn't referring to the car in that sentence, but rather the calibur of teammate he left behind (granted, Buemi and Algu might be stronger than Bourdais, but STRF comprises the developing drivers). Vettel didn't win the WCC with the Toro Rosso - he merely amassed 34 points (his teammate 4). That is what made his driving brilliant. It wasn't a top of the line car - I assume you are not trying to say it was... RB wasn't a top of the line car then either, so it doesn't matter what they had in common, Vettel beat both RB drivers out in the points also (between them they got 29)...

Edited by bourbon, 26 April 2010 - 21:44.

[P123]

Vettel won in a frikken Toro Rosso - AKA a Minardi!! A frikken Minardi. The car is fast but its unreliable and has handling issues with changing conditions.

Vettel won in a Minardi? Talk about fairy stories! He won in a Newey designed Red Bull. Yes he drove a brilliant race, but let's not pretend it was a "frikken Minardi".

[Lights]

It's the same car what Webber has, did you noticed? Sometimes it's not what you have, but what you make with what you have. While we are on the same subject, didn't JB had the same car as RB, a guy who was shaking him for good part of the second half of the season? Lesson learnt in this is, that whilst a car is an integral part of the whole winning package, still someone has to ensure that it will cross the FL in P1. Vettel finished well because car was good, but I doubt that it's the only thing Horner needs to win the championship.

Why bring in Webber, why bring in Button and Barrichello? Was I attacking Vettel in any way? No, I clearly wasn't. What a reply, unbelievable.

You most probably don't want to realize he's in the fastest car for almost a year now and somehow make yourself believe it's Vettel making the difference. We've had enough proof Webber can put that car on pole and win races with it, that tells enough. Yes, Vettel is a better driver than Webber. That's all I can conclude at the moment. But we already knew that 2 years ago. Nothing surprising.

[bourbon]

Vettel won in a Minardi? Talk about fairy stories! He won in a Newey designed Red Bull. Yes he drove a brilliant race, but let's not pretend it was a "frikken Minardi".

You are doing just the opposite. The "Newey designed Red Bull" of 2008 cannot compare to the 2009/10 versions. Vettel beat the 2008 Red Bulls too in his "Newey STRF" - that is why it was brilliant. The car retired 6 times - it was no great wonder, the "wonder" was Vettel (9 point finishes in his first full year = 34 points. He was the top driver for the entire RBR F1 conglomerate that year, which is why he EARNED [can I stress that word] his Red Bull Ride).

Edited by bourbon, 26 April 2010 - 21:56.

[P123]

You are doing just the opposite. The "Newey designed Red Bull" of 2008 cannot compare to the 2009/10 versions. Vettel beat the 2008 Red Bulls too in his "Newey STRF" - that is why it was brilliant. The car retired 6 times - it was no great wonder, the "wonder" was Vettel (9 point finishes in his first full year = 34 points. He was the top driver for the entire RBR F1 conglomerate that year, which is why he EARNED [can I stress that word] his Red Bull Ride).

I don't dispute anything you say. Point is, he didn't win in a Minardi as was ridiculously suggested. I think your response is perhaps more to do with what others may have stated in this topic?

[iotar]

You are doing just the opposite. The "Newey designed Red Bull" of 2008 cannot compare to the 2009/10 versions. Vettel beat the 2008 Red Bulls too in his "Newey STRF" - that is why it was brilliant. The car retired 6 times - it was no great wonder, the "wonder" was Vettel (9 point finishes in his first full year = 34 points. He was the top driver for the entire RBR F1 conglomerate that year, which is why he EARNED [can I stress that word] his Red Bull Ride).

(About cars designed by Newey)

Just to put things into perspective, top 4 cars from qualifying Monza 2008 (in case someone forgot) were:

1. Vettel (TR) - Newey
2. Kova (McL)
3. Webber (RB) - Newey
4. Bourdais (TR) - Newey

These are facts - you draw your own conclusions. Mine is:
OMG OMG Bourdais qualified fourth in a heavier Minardi !!!! Beating Ferraris, BMWs and one McLaren (Ham)!!!

[hotstickyslick]

(About cars designed by Newey)

Just to put things into perspective, top 4 cars from qualifying Monza 2008 (in case someone forgot) were:

1. Vettel (TR) - Newey
2. Kova (McL)
3. Webber (RB) - Newey
4. Bourdais (TR) - Newey

These are facts - you draw your own conclusions. Mine is:
OMG OMG Bourdais qualified fourth in a heavier Minardi !!!! Beating Ferraris, BMWs and one McLaren (Ham)!!!

Wow. That does put things into perspective.

Kind of supports the view that the Red Bull and Toro Rosso cars of that year (especially the Toro Rosso with the Ferrari engine) were very good, just lacked development.

[bourbon]

Wow. That does put things into perspective.

Kind of supports the view that the Red Bull and Toro Rosso cars of that year (especially the Toro Rosso with the Ferrari engine) were very good, just lacked development.

I don't understand why you extrapolate from one race and make a conclusion about the whole year.

I agree the STR-F lacked development, but I would not call it a very good car, which is why what Vettel was able to do was amazing. It was not a bad car, but "very good" - well if we use that expression we will run out of terms for all of the cars that were handily beating STR-F that year in the WCC race:

Ferrari 172
McLaren 151
BMW Sauber 135
Renault 80
Toyota 56
STR-F 39
Red Bull Renault 29
Williams 26

Those STR-F points were 35 from Sebastian and 4 from his teammate. Please stop trying to say it was the car or that both cars were being driven equally well. His teammate doesn't even have a drive anymore, and the car was retired gazobs, giving both drivers a headache.

Edited by bourbon, 27 April 2010 - 01:26.

[mkay]

I don't understand why you extrapolate from one race and make a conclusion about the whole year.

I agree the STR-F lacked development, but I would not call it a very good car, which is why what Vettel was able to do was amazing. It was not a bad car, but "very good" - well if we use that expression we will run out of terms for all of the cars that were handily beating STR-F that year in the WCC race:

Ferrari 172
McLaren 151
BMW Sauber 135
Renault 80
Toyota 56
STR-F 39
Red Bull Renault 29
Williams 26

Those STR-F points were 35 from Sebastian and 4 from his teammate. Please stop trying to say it was the car or that both cars were being driven equally well. His teammate doesn't even have a drive anymore, and the car was retired gazobs, giving both drivers a headache.

Bourdais had tons of bad luck that year. Like at Monza; his car stalled or something and he started at the bottom of the pack.

Edited by mkay, 27 April 2010 - 02:22.

[bourbon]

I feel for him, but he didn't lose his job due to bad luck. Sebastian didn't earn his RB ride due to "good luck" either.

[mkay]

I feel for him, but he didn't lose his job due to bad luck. Sebastian didn't earn his RB ride due to "good luck" either.

Sebastien Bourdais was rubbish in F1, I totally agree with you. Makes it even less impressive for Vettel to see him [Bourdais] that close (in some races). Buemi trashed Bourdais in 2009.

[demoing]

IMHO certainly Vettel is becoming a top driver i just dont think right now he is quiet a top 3 or 4 driver.
If anyone is interested there is a good site you can use to compare drivers which compares when they were in the same team, or raced at the same meet as well as life time totals.
You can check it out here Compare Drivers
It certainly shows Vettel is above Webber but also a bit behind the top drivers like Alonso and Hamilton.
Lewis Hamilton Sebastian Vettel
52 Races 43
11 21% Victory 11% 5
17 32% Pole 11% 5
27 51% Podium 20% 9
3 5% FastestLaps 6% 3
37 71% FinishInPoints 53% 23
256.00 49% Points 29% 125.00

[bourbon]

That wouldn't be fair though because Lewis never had to drive a STR-F like car - he was handed the McLaren from day 1. I think Vettel's total would be very different if his stats weren't littered with all of those retirements and such. Both made rookie mistakes, but Hamilton had the equipment advantage. And he did a great job with it (in terms of pure driving), so no knock on Hamilton, nobody in their right mind would turn down a Macca for a first drive - and he showed he deserved it. But still, the comparison wouldn't be fair counting all those races as if they had both had an equal opportunity with the machinery given. The most fair comparison would likely be 2008 (hamilton) with 2009 (seb) - even though it would still favor Hamilton a bit since it was his second year in the car. 2007 Ham v. 2009 Seb would be more fair in that regard, but then Vettel has the advantage because Hamilton would not have had any experience in F1 as Vettel had. Nonetheless, either of those comparisons would be closer than some kind of overall stat for both.

Edited by bourbon, 27 April 2010 - 03:51.

[Lights]

These are facts - you draw your own conclusions. Mine is:
OMG OMG Bourdais qualified fourth in a heavier Minardi !!!! Beating Ferraris, BMWs and one McLaren (Ham)!!!

That made me laugh

[klyster]

IMHO certainly Vettel is becoming a top driver i just dont think right now he is quiet a top 3 or 4 driver.
If anyone is interested there is a good site you can use to compare drivers which compares when they were in the same team, or raced at the same meet as well as life time totals.
You can check it out here Compare Drivers
It certainly shows Vettel is above Webber but also a bit behind the top drivers like Alonso and Hamilton.
Lewis Hamilton Sebastian Vettel
52 Races 43
11 21% Victory 11% 5
17 32% Pole 11% 5
27 51% Podium 20% 9
3 5% FastestLaps 6% 3
37 71% FinishInPoints 53% 23
256.00 49% Points 29% 125.00

Cool link, cheers ;)

[timmy bolt]

Cool link, cheers ;)

http://j.imagehost.o...516/Capture.jpg

Interesting information although it doesn't tell a lot about the driver ability. This would need to be a spec series for relevance.

Hamilton :-

first season he was a rookie but in a very good (but prob not best car)
second season he arguably didnt have the fastest car but definately up their.
Third season it was a dog but came back towards the end.
This season not the fastest car but near the top.

Vettel :-

Good car only from 2009
Best car from mid(-ish) 2009
Best car (although unreliable) 2010

Their time at the top has been very different, you can argue that Hamilton has never had the outright fastest car (except in certain races such as Monaco 2007/2008 etc).

Vettel has, but hasn't been as close to the top for as long.

Just a load of ifs buts and maybes....

Edited by timmy bolt, 27 April 2010 - 13:32.

[Mr.Fiasco]

I read it (apparently more than once now), and my question stand; so what? Is the author incensed because someone has compared Vettel to Alonso? One can ask the same question about Hamilton; what he has done to be compared to Alonso? One WDC reached in last dying seconds of the race will do that and put him on the same level next to Alonso? Not in my book, sorry.

Well, don't you remember 2007?

I think that equalling your teamate on points deservedly puts you in whatever tier he may be in.

[Sakae]

Cool link, cheers ;)

One day we hear "it's all car", whereas you seems to be telling us "it's all driver". So, which one is it then?

Edited by Sakae, 27 April 2010 - 13:56.

[H2H]

One day we hear "it's all car", whereas you seems to be telling us "it's all driver". So, which one is it then?

The truth is of course somewhere in between but some have the not so surprising habit to play the car or the driver card when it suits their bias best. This neat summary shows perfectly the fallacy of completely ignoring the context - a fine way to be accurately wrong.

H2H

Edited by H2H, 27 April 2010 - 15:39.

[BenettonB192]

One day we hear "it's all car", whereas you seems to be telling us "it's all driver". So, which one is it then?

Make your own conclusions:

Vettel Pole Silverstone 2009 vs. Hamilton Pole Silverstone 2007

[DarthWillie]

Make your own conclusions:

Vettel Pole Silverstone 2009 vs. Hamilton Pole Silverstone 2007

my conclusion, two different cars with different tires and different regulations

[apoka]

(About cars designed by Newey)

Just to put things into perspective, top 4 cars from qualifying Monza 2008 (in case someone forgot) were:

1. Vettel (TR) - Newey
2. Kova (McL)
3. Webber (RB) - Newey
4. Bourdais (TR) - Newey

These are facts - you draw your own conclusions.

1 15 S. Vettel Toro Rosso B 1:37.555 7
2 23 H. Kovalainen McLaren B 1:37.631 +0:00.076 +0:00.076 7
3 10 M. Webber Red Bull B 1:38.117 +0:00.562 +0:00.486 7
4 14 S. Bourdais Toro Rosso B 1:38.445 +0:00.890 +0:00.328

Bourdais pitted 3 laps after Vettel (and in general he is not a crap driver although F1 maybe did not suit him).

[libano]

my conclusion, two different cars with different tires and different regulations

exactly. utterly pointless comparison.

[bourbon]

You know, those rating Vettel don't do so by comparing him to other drivers. They made the judgment sometime in 2008 (in his 35 point total days) based on his ability alone and what they saw from him, not just on the F1 tarmac, but in previous races and tests at the lower levels as well. Even back then a lot of journos and fans were asking why Vettel was supposedly so great (even after Monza). But you have to look at the calibur of people that were impressed with Vettel. Not only well respected drivers and team leaders - but also included people that usually said nothing at all. You have to take note when so many different people are in agreement about a driver, because that means the driver met all of their initial criteria - something very difficult to do before you've stepped foot into a top of the line car...

Edited by bourbon, 27 April 2010 - 18:05.

[BenettonB192]

my conclusion, two different cars with different tires and different regulations

I know that. That was not the point. It was something to think of for the people who say Vettel is only fast because of his car and Hamilton is fast purely because of his driving skill. Especialy when some assume that 2009 should have been an easy ride for Vettel comparable to Hamilton in 2007. But as you can see last years RBR handled like a bitch and took a lot of skill to drive it on pole compared to the 2007 McLaren which had a handling smooth as silk.

[BRK]

You know, those rating Vettel don't do so by comparing him to other drivers. They made the judgment sometime in 2008 (in his 35 point total days) based on his ability alone and what they saw from him, not just on the F1 tarmac, but in previous races and tests at the lower levels as well. Even back then a lot of journos and fans were asking why Vettel was supposedly so great (even after Monza). But you have to look at the calibur of people that were impressed with Vettel. Not only well respected drivers and team leaders - but also included people that usually said nothing at all. You have to take note when so many different people are in agreement about a driver, because that means the driver met all of their initial criteria - something very difficult to do before you've stepped foot into a top of the line car...

True. IMO,comparisons between Vettel and Hamilton aren't going to be of any use until they've both passed through similar phases in their respective careers,and once again I reiterate one would need at least ten years of racing under their belt for any comparison to be proper. Vettel's career has an upward slope,very similar to that of a lot of other champs: starting out in a slower car and rising up the ladder-Hamilton's the reverse,to a certain extent. Excellent car as springboard,then a few less prolific seasons mixed in with seasons like 2009.

[beckenlima]

I know the comparisons is always silly, but watch again Lewis against Massa in 2008 and Vettel against Jenson in 2009 at the same track, in Turkey, is a good base to see how both performed with almost the same strategy and F1 experience under their belts...

Edited by beckenlima, 27 April 2010 - 20:37.

[Sakae]

Make your own conclusions:

Vettel Pole Silverstone 2009 vs. Hamilton Pole Silverstone 2007

My conclusion is, that Hamilton should be afraid, very afraid.

Next.

[Ram20]

Afraid of the RedBull and Adrian Newey.. Yeah you are right. Except that Hamilton made a mockery of Newey's RedBulls in China. Forgot about that didn't you? lol

[bourbon]

Afraid of the RedBull and Adrian Newey.. Yeah you are right. Except that Hamilton made a mockery of Newey's RedBulls in China. Forgot about that didn't you? lol

Mockery? Then what did RB-N make of the Macs when Button/Hamilton finished below 8/6 and RBR were 1-2 in Malaysia? A laughingstock of the ages? Come on man...

Edited by bourbon, 28 April 2010 - 04:04.

[Sakae]

True. IMO,comparisons between Vettel and Hamilton aren't going to be of any use until they've both passed through similar phases in their respective careers,and once again I reiterate one would need at least ten years of racing under their belt for any comparison to be proper. Vettel's career has an upward slope,very similar to that of a lot of other champs: starting out in a slower car and rising up the ladder-Hamilton's the reverse,to a certain extent. Excellent car as springboard,then a few less prolific seasons mixed in with seasons like 2009.

well put

[maverick69]

My conclusion is, that Hamilton should be afraid, very afraid.

Next.

Just like he was in China?

Edited by maverick69, 28 April 2010 - 17:47.

[bourbon]

Just like he was in China?

I wouldn't call all of this scared, but respect. Hamilton's antics/tactics v. Vettel (and visa versa) were out of respect for the fact that based on the driving of these individuals, it pays to be and stay ahead in the game. These two drivers have known this since lower formula days.

So yes, Hamilton had respect in China just as he did in Malaysia, Bahrain and Oz. And Vettel had it too. And of course it is not limited to these two drivers, but everyone on the grid. You know, it is no less disheartening to be taken out by a slow moving HRT...

I was thinking, perhaps the person creating this poll needed to clarify. Is Vettel overrated by fans or did he mean by collegues, or media or what?

Edited by bourbon, 28 April 2010 - 20:00.

[toroRosso]

Vettel is a driver that is too wise to be in formula1. I always had hard time to believe his cheering after a win is truly natural and he is not faking it. He IMO doesnt fit in this category of race drivers after listening to his words and interviews. But as a driver he has amazed me way too often. Im positive that in a car and team that doesnt fail to pass the finish line he will win championship soon enough. Maybe redbull won't be that car but with a good sponsor he could take insurance for his thumbs and perhaps find a better seat?

[mkay]

The Spanish GP shows why I am not sold on Vettel... regardless of his 'bad luck'

Edited by mkay, 09 May 2010 - 15:03.

[markshen]

Of course overrated. He is similar to Massa and Barrichello. Shame that he owns a Mars car.

[stonebutter]

all of his "unfortunate" luck leads me to believe he has a hand in all the problems he has. way overrated - he has the fastest car by a country mile and is only 3rd in the championship. stinks.

Edited by stonebutter, 09 May 2010 - 16:43.

[BenettonB192]

Haters gonna hate.

[OwenC93]

Car destroyer?

[Sakae]

I wouldn't call all of this scared, but respect. Hamilton's antics/tactics v. Vettel (and visa versa) were out of respect for the fact that based on the driving of these individuals, it pays to be and stay ahead in the game. These two drivers have known this since lower formula days.

So yes, Hamilton had respect in China just as he did in Malaysia, Bahrain and Oz. And Vettel had it too. And of course it is not limited to these two drivers, but everyone on the grid. You know, it is no less disheartening to be taken out by a slow moving HRT...

I was thinking, perhaps the person creating this poll needed to clarify. Is Vettel overrated by fans or did he mean by collegues, or media or what?

This discussion has no natural end, and there is no point sometimes to answer some posts. Thread topic is provocative, lacking substance.

The way I look at it, until there is a better rating system developed, WDC points is one indicator where he is, Castrol Ratings is another one. Third one in my own, as his fan, and I am happy with him, I am entertained by him, and I feel for him when a day goes awry. Circle is complete.

[DrF]

The Spanish GP shows why I am not sold on Vettel... regardless of his 'bad luck'

Yes, another poor pitstop allowing Lewis to get past and then mechanical failure allowing Alonso past.

Definitely all his fault.

[mkay]

Yes, another poor pitstop allowing Lewis to get past and then mechanical failure allowing Alonso past.

Definitely all his fault.

No. Webber being untouchable is all his fault.

Webber basically did a "Vettel" this weekend. He was untouchable from Q1 to the checkered flag. Vettel had NO answer...

[F1Degree]

He doesnt seem much faster than Webber and sometimes has off days when Webber owns him. I think its still too early to be talking about him in the same breathe and Alonso and Hamilton. You need to show much more than just the ability to be a very good qualifier in a perfect rocketship which is all Vettel has really done in his career, apart from getting beaten to a world title by Button despite having a faster car. Just not good enough.

[Simon Says]

Yes, another poor pitstop allowing Lewis to get past and then mechanical failure allowing Alonso past.

Definitely all his fault.

Lewis was pulling away and maintained his position pretty comfortably with his inferior Mclaren. Alonso and Lewis will beat Vettel in that Red Bull

edit: And Vettel, the "rainmeister" was unable to follow Lewis in the wet in China somehow with his superior Red Bull. Lewis finished 2nd driving from the back of the grid. And where did Vettel end up Alonso dit 4 pitstops or something and also finished ahead of him.

Edited by Simon Says, 09 May 2010 - 18:25.

[Alfisti]

He doesnt seem much faster than Webber and sometimes has off days when Webber owns him. I think its still too early to be talking about him in the same breathe and Alonso and Hamilton. You need to show much more than just the ability to be a very good qualifier in a perfect rocketship which is all Vettel has really done in his career, apart from getting beaten to a world title by Button despite having a faster car. Just not good enough.

I think you're underestimatiung Webber when he's comfortable. Webber is a poor racer and handles pressure poorly but can pump out lap after lap with the best of them. That Vettel has been able to out qualify Mark so convincingly so often make sit very hard tounderstand how one does not rate Vettel.

[DanardiF1]

Mockery? Then what did RB-N make of the Macs when Button/Hamilton finished below 8/6 and RBR were 1-2 in Malaysia? A laughingstock of the ages? Come on man...

Ah, but Red Bull had put their cars on the front row in China, whereas McLaren fought their way up to 8/6 from 17th and 20th on the grid....

[RoutariEnjinu]

He doesn't seem up to much at Monaco.

[Simon Says]

My conclusion is, that Hamilton should be afraid, very afraid.

Next.

Haha, really? Lewis has been beating Vettel in F3 already.

Lewis has nothing to worry about Vettel. He has even beaten him in a slower Mclaren last year and this year ( China )