647 replies to this topic

[Lights]

It looks to me as if Webber has the measure of Vettel psychologically...and it can't be much fun for the supposed "Baby Schumi" to be beaten by a driver like Webber whom many would consider (before this season, at least) to be something of a journeyman.

It's quite clear indeed. I actually think Red Bull 'backing' Vettel put Webber in a better position psychologically. The pressure is on Vettel and Webber, the 'number 2' scores the results. Mark acts very calm but surely he's rather happy about the situation.

[Skinnyguy]

Webber a journeyman?? It usually happens that people rates drivers only according to their last races/seasons, but c´mon, Mark was sensational in his time in Jaguar and Williams. He was a little like Vettel in Toro Rosso, young guys with amazing potential and poor equipment, waiting for a good car to come. First part of his Red Bull stage hurted his image, people forgot how good he was/is.

[Mclaren4ever]

He´s fast, for sure, but not strong mentally. He seems scared when overtaking is needed, contrary to a Lewis Hamilton who just does it for fun most of the time.

[simplyfast]

If SV were a stock and I were an analyst, I would be recommending a "Buy" for him today.... he is now underated after today's disaster. A bit more experience should sort him out.... If he ever becomes a WDC will be down to him keeping a top ride.

This is actually an improvement in my assessment of SV. I used to think that he was not actually good enough to be WDC but I have changed my mind in last 4 or 5 races. I love his driving style on turn-in ...the way he just teases the car into the corner when it is on the edge in quali is something I really enjoy watching. He is pretty good.

and exactly how much more experience do you think he needs 10 years 20 years or maybe lots more.
The fact remains he is in his 3rd season (4th if you include the fact he joined BMW part way through the 2007 season) and is still making rookie mistakes compare him to lewis who is only 1/2 a season further into his career and it is like night and day.
But then the good driver has challenged for titles in 3 out of 4 seasons even when his car was not the best on the track, and vettel is at best playing on distant dreams even when he has the fastest car by a long way.

[Brandz07]

There seems to be a kind of desperation in Vettel's driving these days...he is feeling the pressure and is trying too hard. He knows he is sitting in the best car on the grid and has to deliver...the problem is he does not (yet) have the racecraft to do so. I agree with whoever said that he is driving as if this is his only chance to be WDC. It looks to me as if Webber has the measure of Vettel psychologically...and it can't be much fun for the supposed "Baby Schumi" to be beaten by a driver like Webber whom many would consider (before this season, at least) to be something of a journeyman.

to me this is his only chance, suprisingly to some other people i reckon.

he's in a completely dominant car and can't deliver. how will he compete with people like lewis when they have more equal equipment? it's just not going to happen im afraid.

[barni]

I think it's dissapointing because after last year there was some hope he'd mature this year and really grab the nettle and give a good account of himself. He's still a very rash overtaker though and hasn't matured as quickly as I perhaps expected. No doubt about his talent though. Being at a top team at his stage is a double-edged sword, and it takes a very rare talent, like Hamilton, to make the most of it. Vettel is lucky/unlucky that he is at the front when he makes his mistakes whereas most other top drivers get this stage of their career out the way by crashing into cars which aren't championship contenders, and then move on to top teams later on.

those rookies who crash into other cars are not in f1 any more, man. which of the current top drivers crashed so many times into others in his rookie season? none. and vettel is not a rookie for a long time.
my point is that if he `d crashed so many times as a rookie in a midfield car he would not have been given a drive in f1 any more. do you remember his first half of the season in torro rosso? there was a time to learn. do you remember his brainfade in aus 2008 when he stepped off the brakes, after had seen kubica passing by, and crashed into him? where is that lesson? i thought that day, when he cried through radio apologizing for his move, that he would learn racing from this situation, that without grip (worn tyre in this case) there is no point to overdrive. he lost points and positions next race, but drew no conclusions. he, like some fans, just believed those rbr pr talks he was the best. so when his wdc chances are fading he`s frustrated, nothing more. will he ever win wdc? i really daubt it. look, he `s been for a 1,5 season in the overall best car never leading wdc standings, that`s telling much. i`m not surprised. at the beginning of this season i wrote at this forum, in one of my first posts, that from the rbr duo mark webber would be the main title contender, which many here laughed at.

[OO7]

I don't think Vettel is overrated. He is clearly very quick and very talented, however he is making too many mistakes at the moment.

[Brandz07]

I don't think Vettel is overrated. He is clearly very quick and very talented, however he is making too many mistakes at the moment.

mistakes? or a limit in talent?

[sosidge]

mistakes? or a limit in talent?

It's ironic that you have an image of Webber as yor avatar yet you are questioning the limit of Vettel's talent after a crash... Webber was responsible for the most clear cut punt of the season so far!

However, I do believe that Vettel was pushed into F1 too soon. He has not had the wheel-to-wheel racing experience through the lower formulae that Hamilton had. This is a significant difference. It's going to hurt all the Red Bull programme drivers in F1 right now - they have all been stuck in cars too soon. Speed is natural, racecraft is learned.

[Lights]

However, I do believe that Vettel was pushed into F1 too soon. He has not had the wheel-to-wheel racing experience through the lower formulae that Hamilton had. This is a significant difference. It's going to hurt all the Red Bull programme drivers in F1 right now - they have all been stuck in cars too soon. Speed is natural, racecraft is learned.

Kimi's racecraft in F1 seemed just fine after a couple of dozen car races.

[Brandz07]

It's ironic that you have an image of Webber as yor avatar yet you are questioning the limit of Vettel's talent after a crash... Webber was responsible for the most clear cut punt of the season so far!

However, I do believe that Vettel was pushed into F1 too soon. He has not had the wheel-to-wheel racing experience through the lower formulae that Hamilton had. This is a significant difference. It's going to hurt all the Red Bull programme drivers in F1 right now - they have all been stuck in cars too soon. Speed is natural, racecraft is learned.

my image of webber is part of a joke haha, not anything to do with irony or me being a fan of his, because im not. tbh, vettels have been more avoidable. and his excuse about the track being wet! ha! it clearly wasn't and jenson confirmed it wasnt.

'Speed is natural, racecraft is learned.'- right, so lewis' first corner pass on alonso in his first race must of been learnt in the 300m's or so before that corner. jeez, thats quick! & i couldn't see vettel doing what he did even today, would of just hit someone imo.

Edited by Brandz07, 29 August 2010 - 20:51.

[Hippo]

Seems to be a psychological problem. He is fast but maybe he can't deal with being told so as often as he is. Lewis had the same problem at one stage. He fired his manager daddy, who probably told him the same thing too often too. And after a while his mind set seemed to have changed and he became more consistent without losing his speed. Maybe Vettel should get himself a decent manager too, because the guys at Red Bull (especially Mr Marko) are likely doing the same crap to him as daddy Hamilton did to Lewis.

[DanardiF1]

I don't know if "maturity" has much to do with overtaking skills. I mean guys like Hamilton and Montoya were overtaking almost from day one, despite beeing rookies.
Other top drivers also showed pretty early their skills at overtaking.

But Seb, it seems, cannot do much overtaking. It could be related to the car or to his youth but I think he also lacks something more in addition to that.
What that could be is a mystery but is definately screwing his chances of becoming a champion.

Maturity in that sense also relates to the fact that Hamilton and Montoya did their 'apprenticeships' if you like... They had learned their trade by progressing up the Junior ladder, until they had all the tools at their disposal to come into F1 and start mixing it with the top guys.

Vettel was plucked by Red Bull from a Renault World Series campaign, where the racing is tough, but sometimes not much higher a level than F3... he had been beaten in F3 the year before by Paul Di Resta (who despite his undoubted talent is still learning his trade in DTM and learning with Force India, waiting for a time that Mercedes think he's ready for an F1 seat). His F3 year was with drivers like Di Resta, Nakajima, Kobayashi, Grosjean and Buemi, none of whom were/are ready for F1 pre-2009...

GP2 is a series that makes or breaks drivers now... aside from Pantano all the champions get an F1 deal, and with good teams (Rosberg and Hulkenburg with Williams, Hamilton the ultimate promotion to McLaren, Glock to Toyota)... it's become a must-do for would-be F1 drivers, as it's so competitive, and it's the final place that 'rookie' errors and mistakes are ironed out, being allowed to happen and also learning from it... Vettel missed this step because Red Bull thought he was ready for F1... sure he was fast enough, but so were plenty other drivers, and they had to do their time in GP2 to prove that they weren't just fast...

Red Bull need to have a long look at their Junior Program, and think if what they are doing is the best way to produce Champion F1 drivers, because their only 'success' to date is Vettel, and even he's not the finished product...

[DanardiF1]

Kimi's racecraft in F1 seemed just fine after a couple of dozen car races.

There are exceptions of course, and Hamilton is another... but I think Kimi's overall attitude to F1 wasn't helped by being elevated to a seat so soon into his car career...

I also think he's more naturally talented than Vettel...

[sosidge]

my image of webber is part of a joke haha, not anything to do with irony or me being a fan of his, because im not. tbh, vettels have been more avoidable. and his excuse about the track being wet! ha! it clearly wasn't and jenson confirmed it wasnt.

'Speed is natural, racecraft is learned.'- right, so lewis' first corner pass on alonso in his first race must of been learnt in the 300m's or so before that corner. jeez, thats quick! & i couldn't see vettel doing what he did even today, would of just hit someone imo.

Lewis spent a lot more time in Junior formulae than Vettel did. And Lewis did have one or two dumb mistakes in that first season also... you know, the one where he threw away a 17 point lead in two races. Vettel was 19 when he first raced an F1 car, Hamilton 22.

[P123]

However, I do believe that Vettel was pushed into F1 too soon. He has not had the wheel-to-wheel racing experience through the lower formulae that Hamilton had. This is a significant difference. It's going to hurt all the Red Bull programme drivers in F1 right now - they have all been stuck in cars too soon. Speed is natural, racecraft is learned.

Both had 5 full seasons of racing in the junior categories before progressing to F1, so I don't think lack of experience there can be used as a reasoning for any apparent lack of racecraft. Sometimes he can be a bit too aggressive but he wouldn't be the first racing driver to be like that.

[Brandz07]

Lewis spent a lot more time in Junior formulae than Vettel did. And Lewis did have one or two dumb mistakes in that first season also... you know, the one where he threw away a 17 point lead in two races. Vettel was 19 when he first raced an F1 car, Hamilton 22.

what age is vettel now? exactly, older than lewis was in his rookie season, and yet he makes more mistakes even after 4 years f1 experience. which for sure is more valueble than some more f3 or gp2 in the long run.

[chuffbiscuits]

Vettel simply has not shown in all his time in F1 so far (40-odd races) that he is a good wheel-to-wheel racer. He has had a couple of moments here and there, but come on - in just this race he had two impacts from botched overtaking attempts. How many does that make this season? I've always thought he'd get better with experience, and probably he still will, but I'm thinking his reputation will have taken a serious dent by the end of this season when all the dust settles and people in the business are taking stock. The Autosport review with the team principals' driver ratings for the year will make interesting reading, as they've always rated Vettel higher than his season finish until now. Webber is definitely re-shaping a few perceptions of the wunderkind IMO.

[Disgrace]

At the moment, clearly yes, he is overrated. He can dominate, like Massa, but doesn't have the racecraft to overtake, battle and win in a straight fight.

Twice this year he has had to make tough moves on Webber and Button, both times he lost it and crashed into them. Not to mention how he clouted into Sutil at Silverstone and threw away the win in Hungary.

He isn't good enough yet. The best thing I read here for a while was a comparison with Hamilton's first year in the McLaren. It gives us a bit of perspective: Hamilton handled pressure brilliantly by comparison.

[alecc]

At the moment, clearly yes, he is overrated. He can dominate, like Massa, but doesn't have the racecraft to overtake, battle and win in a straight fight.

Twice this year he has had to make tough moves on Webber and Button, both times he lost it and crashed into them. Not to mention how he clouted into Sutil at Silverstone and threw away the win in Hungary.

He isn't good enough yet. The best thing I read here for a while was a comparison with Hamilton's first year in the McLaren. It gives us a bit of perspective: Hamilton handled pressure brilliantly by comparison.

Yeah exactly, Hamilton was a "Vettel" but only in his debut year, and even then it wasn't that bad, and Lewis is getting from season to season more and more mature, but Vettel has his brainfades on that same rate season after season, if there is a change noticeable, then even rather to worse than better if we talking about handling pressure.
Naturally, we can't say he haven't any talent, but talent alone is simply not enough to be a top driver. IMHO it isn't even the most important factor.

[Claudius]

Maturity in that sense also relates to the fact that Hamilton and Montoya did their 'apprenticeships' if you like... They had learned their trade by progressing up the Junior ladder, until they had all the tools at their disposal to come into F1 and start mixing it with the top guys.

Vettel was plucked by Red Bull from a Renault World Series campaign, where the racing is tough, but sometimes not much higher a level than F3... he had been beaten in F3 the year before by Paul Di Resta (who despite his undoubted talent is still learning his trade in DTM and learning with Force India, waiting for a time that Mercedes think he's ready for an F1 seat). His F3 year was with drivers like Di Resta, Nakajima, Kobayashi, Grosjean and Buemi, none of whom were/are ready for F1 pre-2009...

GP2 is a series that makes or breaks drivers now... aside from Pantano all the champions get an F1 deal, and with good teams (Rosberg and Hulkenburg with Williams, Hamilton the ultimate promotion to McLaren, Glock to Toyota)... it's become a must-do for would-be F1 drivers, as it's so competitive, and it's the final place that 'rookie' errors and mistakes are ironed out, being allowed to happen and also learning from it... Vettel missed this step because Red Bull thought he was ready for F1... sure he was fast enough, but so were plenty other drivers, and they had to do their time in GP2 to prove that they weren't just fast...

Red Bull need to have a long look at their Junior Program, and think if what they are doing is the best way to produce Champion F1 drivers, because their only 'success' to date is Vettel, and even he's not the finished product...

Good post

[Hippo]

Actually Hamilton was pretty good in his rookie year. Except for the blunder in China he did great given the competition and scandals that happened around him and his team. In his 2nd year he folded under the pressure like Vettel does now. Most amazingly he still won the trophy, because the competition was shallow. Lucky for him. But after that he became a much better racer and more importantly sports man. In my book at least that is. I don't think it's because of the number of races or his WDC though. I believe firing his daddy as his manager was the key. It's just not helpful to being told how great you are even when you failed badly. Distorts your sense of reality and prevents you from learning from mistakes.

[man]

I think he will be ok with more experience. He appears to be quite immature at times but I think given time he will teach himself how to handle situations better than he does now.

However, it is plain nuts to believe he is in the same category as Hamilton - in terms of raw pace, brains or anything else. Vettel is fast, but there is a big difference between being fast and Hamilton-esque fast.

Edited by man, 29 August 2010 - 23:03.

[undersquare]

Actually Hamilton was pretty good in his rookie year. Except for the blunder in China he did great given the competition and scandals that happened around him and his team. In his 2nd year he folded under the pressure like Vettel does now. Most amazingly he still won the trophy, because the competition was shallow. Lucky for him. But after that he became a much better racer and more importantly sports man. In my book at least that is. I don't think it's because of the number of races or his WDC though. I believe firing his daddy as his manager was the key. It's just not helpful to being told how great you are even when you failed badly. Distorts your sense of reality and prevents you from learning from mistakes.

This whole post is conjured up from your imagination. Anthony did not behave how you're suggesting, at all.

Vettel and Hamilton are just different personalities, different people, nothing to do with having their dads around for a few months, or not. Sebi will get better as he matures.

[Hippo]

Actually I didn't even imply that Lewis and Seb shared a similar personality. I was talking about management problems. Lewis fired his manager. As for the reason I only assumed, obviously. Seems to have worked though.

[alecc]

This whole post is conjured up from your imagination. Anthony did not behave how you're suggesting, at all.

Vettel and Hamilton are just different personalities, different people, nothing to do with having their dads around for a few months, or not. Sebi will get better as he matures.

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't follow F1 for so long, but... wasn't similar talking about DC? That he will stop crashing into another people as he matures?

[LuisPena]

What defines a men ( in this case a driver) is the way you act when you face challenge.
This year is probably the biggest challenge he have, has the best car, a very tight battle in the front drivers, and a few things more.

You see, from my point of view, he is making himself look like a rookie, and he is. He is fast but not like Hamilton or Alonso, and if you look ahead they will be ther for a few years. He looks like predrosa for me, he win when he is only in the front, but if you applied a litter bit of presure he crack off.
Is the same reason why i see Pedrosa like a wanna be ( but that is another post)
The thing is Lewis show up from the begining that he can fight if he have a good car, and that he can develop a good car to fight to.
People saying " oh he will get there" but believe me he will but not as "sure" like Hamilton or Alonso does.

The thing is he is overrated, at least that what he shows, he got talent but not the mentality to learn from each mistake and analyze how to become better each race. Look at Hamilton, look what he is putting together this year, excuse me Vettel fans but with that car he should be Champion by know if
he is as incredible as you said.

[JackTorrance]

Nonsense. Vettel had a lot of reliability troubles wich costed him a race, or time in free practise. He won a race in the torro rosso with a customer engine and was on top the whole weekend. Then he more often than not, gives ultra fast qualifier Mark Webber something to think about. He drives a car wich is underpowered because some other manufacturer did not shut down their engine development team, going against the spirit of the engine freeze.

Vettel is the real deal. Hes the most promising driver on the grid who will win many, many championships. He tries to overtake when the rest apathically just follow others tails. Hes also very likeable, doesnt get into off track controversies and doesnt have a daddy manager. He does all his deals himself a la Berger. Cut this guy some slack.

[JackTorrance]

What defines a men ( in this case a driver) is the way you act when you face challenge.


Look at Hamilton, look what he is putting together this year

Exactly! What was the outcome of that challenge between Button and Hamilton when the latter claimed he was fitter than the former again?

[Arion]

Actually Hamilton was pretty good in his rookie year. Except for the blunder in China he did great given the competition and scandals that happened around him and his team. In his 2nd year he folded under the pressure like Vettel does now. Most amazingly he still won the trophy, because the competition was shallow. Lucky for him. But after that he became a much better racer and more importantly sports man. In my book at least that is. I don't think it's because of the number of races or his WDC though. I believe firing his daddy as his manager was the key. It's just not helpful to being told how great you are even when you failed badly. Distorts your sense of reality and prevents you from learning from mistakes.

He always learned from his mistakes, he didn't just start doing that after firing Anthony. How do you think he got where he is if Anthony had been distorting his sense of reality from the very beginning of his career.
He's been "managed" all his life. He just doesn't want to be told what to do by his dad anymore. Anthony didn't mismanage him, Lewis fired him because he wanted to be his own man and independence. It's a father-son issue, not a management issue.

[mstar]

We had a thread open last year and we had various theroies and the main flavour from the thread was that there is something within Vettel that when the pressure is on to pass a good driver/championship contender he seems to either make wrong judgement calls or trys rash overtaking moves. It could be the pressure or his lack of skill of passing cars like hamilton/button/webber/alonso etc etc but something in his make-up isn't right, every -now-again we see him fly of the road or try very risky moves. I just don't know what it is. He seems to panic at the start at times and goes immediatly defencive we saw it a few times this season and last season too. Anthony davidson said in commentry he is a driver who is great upfront but then he has to get in the trences and make up places passing top cars he seems to lack that judgement/overtaking ability that makes people like hamilton/buttonwebber/alonso etc a little better when they are not in 1st position.

for people who say i am beating up vettel i have to say hamilton as a rookie made some great overtaking moves and his judgement calls in those passing situations THAT early in his career were better then vettel, who has been in F1 for a few seasons.

Edited by mstar, 30 August 2010 - 11:06.

[simplyfast]

Nonsense. Vettel had a lot of reliability troubles wich costed him a race, or time in free practise. He won a race in the torro rosso with a customer engine and was on top the whole weekend. Then he more often than not, gives ultra fast qualifier Mark Webber something to think about. He drives a car wich is underpowered because some other manufacturer did not shut down their engine development team, going against the spirit of the engine freeze.

Vettel is the real deal. Hes the most promising driver on the grid who will win many, many championships. He tries to overtake when the rest apathically just follow others tails. Hes also very likeable, doesnt get into off track controversies and doesnt have a daddy manager. He does all his deals himself a la Berger. Cut this guy some slack.

and of course his driving into so many people or losing so many pole positions trying to force people into walls had nothing to do with him did it.

[BennyJohnson]

Is he over-rated? I don't think so.

He's incredibly fast (In my opinion, the fastest on the grid at the moment), he lacks a few things that some of the more experienced driver's have acquired over a long career.

It took Senna 5 years to win his first championship...

Vettel will turn into a great driver over what I'm sure will be a very long and successful career in Formula 1. No question.

[Brandz07]

Is he over-rated? I don't think so.

He's incredibly fast (In my opinion, the fastest on the grid at the moment), he lacks a few things that some of the more experienced driver's have acquired over a long career.

It took Senna 5 years to win his first championship...

Vettel will turn into a great driver over what I'm sure will be a very long and successful career in Formula 1. No question.

did senna have a car as dominant as the RB6 in his first years?

did lewis require experience in 2007 to gain race-craft thats probably better than vettels at the moment?

I'm not sure he's ever going to be the full package or one that becomes the best in this era of F1 :/

[Lights]

Is he over-rated? I don't think so.

He's incredibly fast (In my opinion, the fastest on the grid at the moment), he lacks a few things that some of the more experienced driver's have acquired over a long career.

It took Senna 5 years to win his first championship...

Vettel will turn into a great driver over what I'm sure will be a very long and successful career in Formula 1. No question.

Over-rated depends on who's opinion it's based and yours is definitely over-rating him, in my opinion.

Don't get the reference with Senna either.

[trogggy]

Right now he's under-rated. Just like MW was after Australia this year.

[Dan333SP]

I wonder where Bourbon has gone after this grand prix?

[mlsnoopy]

Yes.
He is simply not learning, developing. He still makes rookie mistakes. His first race was in 2007.
Why is that?
RedBull just pushed him into F1 to soon.
He definitely has the talent, but is lacking something.

Edited by mlsnoopy, 30 August 2010 - 12:44.

[Skinnyguy]

Right now he's under-rated. Just like MW was after Australia this year.

Touché.

[F. Scaramanga]

one average month in the life of sebastian vettel:

one week hero, the next three weeks zero.

vettel is not sooo bad... do you remember the last laps "brasilia ´08" in the rain.

vettel in a toro rosso overtook hamilton in the mclaren... and hamilton had no chance to catch the position back from him.

[Lights]

Probably true. In fact, there's no better driver out there according to research.

[Dunc]

Vettel is the new Nigel Mansell. Either on the podium or in the tyre wall, there is no inbetween.

[goldenboy]

I dont really think he is overrated. And he hasnt been called the best driver out there, but more so the one with the most potential from where he is at the moment. Theres definately something special about him. Whether or not he will be better than hammo though I dont know about that. (Interesting that this was only the 2nd (or first?) grand prix hammo has ever won leading every lap from start to finish)

Edited by goldenboy, 30 August 2010 - 14:47.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

In terms of pure speed I think he is the best out there IMO.

His race craft is lacking however and he over-compensates. He's also mentally fragile too in my opinion, despite the overtly media-matureness he has displayed this season.

[robefc]

one average month in the life of sebastian vettel:

one week hero, the next three weeks zero.

vettel is not sooo bad... do you remember the last laps "brasilia ´08" in the rain.

vettel in a toro rosso overtook hamilton in the mclaren... and hamilton had no chance to catch the position back from him.

wohoo, vettel once took advantage of a hamilton mistake in the rain when he was running sod all downforce, argument settled!

[barni]

one average month in the life of sebastian vettel:

one week hero, the next three weeks zero.

vettel is not sooo bad... do you remember the last laps "brasilia ´08" in the rain.

vettel in a toro rosso overtook hamilton in the mclaren... and hamilton had no chance to catch the position back from him.

are you kidding, man? hamilton was cruising cautiously to the finish line, he needed only not to crash and collect some points to win wdc that day, he didn`t want to repeat his 2007 nightmare. besides both of them were overtaken by unlaping himself kubica, which made hamilton confuse. and you must remember that this torro rosso driven by vettel that time was probably one of the best "cold/wet conditions` car" (just after maccas). look at starting grid at monza where qualifying session was wet. guess who qualified 4th... yes bourdais who wasn`t even in f1 one year after that.

[DanardiF1]

My opinion -

Vettel is a very good driver, and has proven this with some impressive performances throughout his career so far... BUT... in that same time he has had peers around him who have demonstrated every aspect of Vettel's armoury and then gone beyond and done incredible things that seem beyond Vettel's reach at times.

If you want to compare him with these peers, I would nominate Lewis Hamilton, Fernando Alonso, Jenson Button, Felipe Massa, Robert Kubica and now Nico Rosberg as the peers that are now at the top in the driver stakes in F1. Out of these guys I would say that Hamilton and Alonso are probably the best two drivers in the world. If you want to put Vettel in that group, you have to look and see if he provides any of the extraordinary talents these two provide aside from driving the car fast. Hamilton has that Senna-esque drive and determination to get to the front of a race no matter what the car is doing, and although that sometimes doesn't work out (Monza 2009) we all get a display of pure genius everytime we see Hamilton drive. Alonso often doesn't seem as intense in the car, but he can quietly sneak up on you and then just destroy an opponent. He is a fiercely passionate man also, and though sometimes that can bleed into his driving, he has always seemed calm behind the wheel to me.

Now, we know Vettel can be as quick over a lap as both of these guys, but there doesn't seem to be a fire burning inside him to race as hard as he can like Hamilton, nor have I seen the tactical nouse and predatory instinct of Alonso... so I would have to say that he is not as good as these two guys, because they can match his pace, but with extra impetus and capacity for more aside.

With the other drivers, the Button's and Massa's etc. I'd say he's probably more in line with these drivers. I rate Button very highly, and I think he's been one of the best drivers in F1 since he 'arrived' in 2004, and even he can match Vettel for pace more often than not, with the added caveat that Button is probably the best car manager since Alain Prost, also with an incredible feel for a car in mixed conditions. Add to that the fact that Jenson is one of the best overtakers, ruthless yet clean, of the last decade and you've got a pretty high level for Seb to match. Massa is erratic but incredibly fast, and relies more on Smedley than Vettel does with his engineers. Kubica is probably the one I would put nearest to Vettel, in that they are both very, very fast, but aren't the compete package yet and still need to add some strings to their bow. I'd say Kubica is a better racer, but Vettel has the edge on one-lap pace. Rosberg is still a bit of an unknown quantity, as his years at Williams were mixed with incredible drives in cars that weren't on the pace (that drive in Singapore in 2008 was one of the best that year, better I think than Vettel's drive at Monza, due to the car inequalities) and also ones that were a bit bland, sometimes being too close to Nakajima's pace for a guy rated so highly. However, his style is a joy to behold, very flamboyant and uses all the track, and he is now showing the consistency of pace that was missing at Williams, and that can maybe be attributed to his promotion to a 'Top Team', and the motivation that must bring.

One other factor that blurs the Vettel appraisal is the car he drives. He has now been sat in a car that has probably been the best car in the field by quite a margin since about Turkey last year, and in that time he has only won four races. In the same time his teammate Webber has won two, as has Rubens Barrichello. These guys could beat Vettel no problem in races where he should've dominated. Hamilton in that awful McLaren completely outdid him in Singapore, and should've sewn up the win in Abu Dhabi no problem if not for a dodgy brake pad. To be that far ahead in Qualifying (0.5 seconds) was a message to Vettel from Hamilton that he isn't the top guy yet.

Coming to the races this year that Red Bull have dominated on Saturday and then fallen foul of whatever problem they can come up with on the Sunday, I've seen Vettel struggle for answers in races where he was under the kosh, particularly China. Having locked out the front row, you'd expect that the Red Bull's would keep watch of whatever everyone else was doing and cover it, as they have the raw pace to beat them anyway. But instead we saw a penalty-laden Alonso beat Vettel, Hamilton in the McLaren on a similar strategy beat Vettel, Jenson Button outthink and then outrace the whole lot of them to beat everyone and Vettel. All the big rivals to Vettel beat him in a race he won last year, in a car that really shouldn't have been that far back in the first place. When it came to a point where each driver's own specialty was needed more than ever, Vettel had no answers...

And that's why I don't think he's that special... He's been flattered by a car that is a lot better than the rest, and when it's time for him to flatter the car he's been more than once left looking for answers.

just thought I'd dig this out - Something I posted in this thread back in April... it rings true to me now as much as it did then...