41 replies to this topic

[cheapracer]

Guy not only says that he can muster 400hp and yet under different running mode get 100mpg, he apparently is going into production at a rate of 20 engines per day.

http://www.hp2g.com/homeofhp2g.html

[Fat Boy]

Guy not only says that he can muster 400hp and yet under different running mode get 100mpg, he apparently is going into production at a rate of 20 engines per day.

http://www.hp2g.com/homeofhp2g.html

[/reality]

[Wuzak]

From what I read it seems that the engine is a hybrid. Somehow using magnets to drive the pistons in one mode.

I couldn't find any pictures of the engine itself on the site, so I did a google search. As I typed HP2G it gave me several autocomplete resultes from which to choose - one of which was HP2G scam and another HP2G hoax........

Anyway, found THIS site from January 2009.

Nowhere on the HP2g website or in the materials provided to us at the show is the number fullly explained; just that "Mileage performance verification by cross country road test in October/November, 2008." The best we can figure, as we noted when we wrote about this car before, is that Pelmear is only talking about the petroleum portion of the E85 fuel, and is somehow counting the ethanol as free energy.

[rms]

Aaahhhhh, the great American snake oil salesman !

I thought they had died out but I must be mistaken.

[Wuzak]

http://hamiltonianfu...mustang_06.html

I've looked at more of the figures from HP2g's site for fill ups and mileage. They are showing numbers as high as 136.85 m.p.g. (actual miles divided by actual U.S. gallons, MPGe would be much higher). This would mean that the HP2g Mustang was getting significantly more than 100% of the energy available in the E85.

[McGuire]

The guy is based in Napoleon, Ohio, not too far from me. First started getting some play in the local newspapers a few years ago (when he was claiming only 80+ mpg). A complete fraud. I spoke to him once; near as I can tell he is less knowledgeable about the internal combustion engine than the average dealership mechanic. If by some miracle or accident he has stumbled over something of some small value, he would have no idea how to go about quantifying it or even identifying it.

Your typical deal -- equal parts stupidity and greed, coupled to a need for attention. The website is rather amusing in that regard. Note how any notice he receives is portrayed as an endorsement.

[McGuire]

Aaahhhhh, the great American snake oil salesman !

I thought they had died out but I must be mistaken.

I am glad to see we are still holding up our end in the good old USA. For a while there the nutty stuff was all coming from Australia. Every screwy scam/idea ever concocted seemed to be showing up down under a decade or two later... except for Peter Brock's orgone accumulator. Now that was fairly original. Thumbs up on that one.

[Wuzak]

I am glad to see we are still holding up our end in the good old USA. For a while there the nutty stuff was all coming from Australia. Every screwy scam/idea ever concocted seemed to be showing up down under a decade or two later... except for Peter Brock's orgone accumulator. Now that was fairly original. Thumbs up on that one.

The polariser?

[rms]

McGuire,
Snake oil salesman have rightly gone down in American folklore, but we are just a bunch of convicts trying to relieve the boredom.

[cheapracer]

I love snake oil guys, if your that stupid to sign up well....

What sets this guy apart is apparently he is production ready, now I also don't believe his claims but I am interested to see where he runs to shortly - literally as well!

I'm sad to say that a friend I keep close contact with who started this from nothing;
http://www.rhinobuggies.com.au/

..sent me this email the other day...

I am now totally out of the automotive industry, and have lost all interest in cars, I am waiting on more exciting "free energy" technology that will be released in the coming years, which will make the automobile obsolete.
Anyway stay safe.
I suggest you batton down the hatches, as the coming years are going to be full on.
Buy Gold if you can.

Go figure...

[gruntguru]

Give him a break. The guy has had EPA testing done and passed with flying colours - see report here. (Scroll down to green document and click to enlarge)

Seems the idle emissions are 30%-40% lower than the limits for a 93 Mustang - wow!!!

Seriously - when I saw the thread title my first thought was "100 mpg - so what." There are plenty of ways to produce that sort of economy these days. Ultra-economy vehicles are in the 1000's now. Then there is the 400 hp - well that's not incompatible either - just switch off the 400 hp and the associated friction and parasitics when you don't need them. Do most of your running on the 10 hp economy engine.

Here's a simple scenario that would achieve the 400/100 claim:
1. Build a 400 hp electric vehicle - say a Tesla with a bigger motor and smaller battery pack.
2. Add a 10 kW high-efficiency diesel genset.
3. Run down the drag strip - yep 400hp performance.
4. Cruise down the highway at 60mph - viola! - 100+mpg.

Edit. Can't be done with a 93 Mustang. Even with the most efficient engines available - say 200g/kW.hr (modern truck engine), the car would need to be capable of cruising at 60 mph with only 9 kW power level.

Edited by gruntguru, 31 December 2009 - 07:03.

[cheapracer]

... except for Peter Brock's orgone accumulator.

He managed to accumulate a number of cashed up orgones to buy it too

Yes Wuzac, the "Polariser"

Here's a simple scenario that would achieve the 400/100 claim:
1. Build a 400 hp electric vehicle - say a Tesla with a bigger motor and smaller battery pack.
2. Add a 10 kW high-efficiency diesel genset.
3. Run down the drag strip - yep 400hp performance.
4. Cruise down the highway at 60mph - viola! - 100+mpg.

But he is basing his claim on a singular V8.

Edited by cheapracer, 31 December 2009 - 03:54.

[gruntguru]

He managed to accumulate a number of cashed up orgones to buy it too

Yep, and they all bought in because it was Peter Brock doing the selling - nothing to do with the product.

But he is basing his claim on a singular V8.

I did say "when I saw the thread title"

Edit. The claim is a 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, V8. . . . . and an electric motor and batteries. Actually a credible concept - if you can eliminate the 7 parasitic cylinders.

Edited by gruntguru, 31 December 2009 - 04:01.

[gruntguru]

I'm sad to say that a friend I keep close contact with who started this from nothing;
http://www.rhinobuggies.com.au/

..sent me this email the other day...

I am now totally out of the automotive industry, and have lost all interest in cars, I am waiting on more exciting "free energy" technology that will be released in the coming years, which will make the automobile obsolete.
Anyway stay safe.
I suggest you batton down the hatches, as the coming years are going to be full on.
Buy Gold if you can.

Hi Cheapy. Most people would agree that your friend has lost the plot - but at the very least you should keep his message and read it once a year for the next few years.

[Greg Locock]

The hp2g guy entered the Automotive X Prize, and got a bit of 'insightful questioning' on the forums, eventually he failed to qualify for the next round of the competition and left, threatening to sue.
http://autoblog.xpri...p2g-claims.html

Having said that for various reasons I don't regard the X prize as a particularly legitimate competition, he may be well out of it. For instance, this sort of tosh. http://autoblog.xpri...rike-water.html

[cheapracer]

I was going to start a thread about the XPrize actually Greg so might as well be here and look forward to your views about it all considering your solar car work and avenues from there that you may have explored.....

I don't follow it much, anyone know why it's taking so long, I mean whats the issues, line a bunch of competitors up and see how far they go .... what am I missing?

[Greg Locock]

why it's taking so long, I mean whats the issues, line a bunch of competitors up and see how far they go .... what am I missing?

They could have run it like that - all over the world there are funny little competitions that do that, more or less, and they really haven't proved anything much-I'll include solar car racing there. I think mileage marathon is an honourable exception, even there there doesn't seem to have been any useful fertilization back into production cars.

The hard bit with X prize is all the other requirements they've put on it. To satisfy the requirements to the standard they initially asked for is an incredible amount of work (for instance they have to meet US emissions and crash), and a lot of the judging was subjective. The business plan is for 10000 vehicles per year. How many manufacturers make 10000 a year? Why is that such a weird number?

As one simple example, here are a couple of requirements from the draft proposal, and my responses, which were possibly more sarcastic than effective.

"Simulated crash testing results, with resulting torsion and bending statistics"

Crash testing and bending and torsion tests are separate things entirely. Whoever drafted this does not know what they are talking about. Are you seriously expecting teams to do crash testing, whether on computer or in real life?

"Features: Heater, air-conditioner, audio system, real-time eco-feedback display"

Need to define performance of heater air con and audio, otherwise I’ll give you a small loop of resistance wire, a damp rag, and an iPod Shuffle.

[Slowinfastout]

I owned 300whp (more or less) Audi A4, Imprezas and Eagle Talons (Mitsu Eclipse, Plymouth Lasers, etc... but mine were Talons) same engine as Evos, but in a coupe with added lard..

..and over 20mpg you had to try, it had to be on purpose, over relatively long trips.

apart from that, **** it, get a low-mileage pre-'93 Golf, or a Civic, if you're after efficiency Vs price.. or a bike.. or a Hyundai ..

In the context mentionned above, I also drove a bunch of eco-boxes including Priuses and a ford escape hybrid (against my will)... well...and ..they suck.

If you want to save the earth and have fun, then I reckon a good mk2 Gti is still the best bet overall.. it's been built already and it's everythinh you need..

Edited by Slowinfastout, 01 January 2010 - 10:37.

[McGuire]

Give him a break. The guy has had EPA testing done and passed with flying colours - see report here. (Scroll down to green document and click to enlarge)

No, that's just the slip from a State of Ohio smog check. The interesting thing about this guy is he really doesn't know the difference. He has no more idea what constitutes EPA compliance and validation than a pig might know about Christmas. He well and truly is some guy with a hot-rodded 5.0L Mustang who convinced himself that by turning the screws the right way he can make it get 100 mpg. No more, no less. There is no more to the story than that. The rest of it is complete horseshit. There are no hybrid sports sedans or electric motor plants and there never was any earnest attempt to compete for the X Prize. He wouldn't know where to start. There's nothing there. Really: he's just a guy with a Mustang who takes it around to local TV stations and makes claims. Seriously.

[cheapracer]

Whats with the Xprize's smog complaince crap?

If a car is exceeding 100mpg then by right it is reasonably clean by way of the bulk it's not emitting.

(Along those lines I have always thought that sub 1000cc cars with efi should be exempt from emissions tests).

As for the safety crash thing, thats a bit harsh for a backyard genius who really may have the mechanical answers but no knowlege or bucks for the other items.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Gold is no better an investment than cash, it's just a different form of currency. If you need assets when the revolution comes I suggest stuff like petrol and water.

[McGuire]

Gold is no better an investment than cash, it's just a different form of currency. If you need assets when the revolution comes I suggest stuff like petrol and water.

The gold bugs really bother me. They're worse than the shorts. They are hoping not merely for a market crash but for a cinematic post-apocalypse -- starring them instead of Mel Gibson or Kevin Costner. I suggest that when the end comes, we find the people with gold and kill them first. I suspect that is pretty much how it would go down.

[McGuire]

Whats with the Xprize's smog complaince crap?

If a car is exceeding 100mpg then by right it is reasonably clean by way of the bulk it's not emitting.

That's not really how it works. Maximizing efficiency does not necessarily minimize emissions, especially oxides of nitrogen.

[cheapracer]

That's not really how it works. Maximizing efficiency does not necessarily minimize emissions, especially oxides of nitrogen.

Absolutely agree but I was alluding to how much actually comes out the tailpipe - a little dirty is the same as a lot of clean etc.

[Fat Boy]

The gold bugs really bother me. They're worse than the shorts. They are hoping not merely for a market crash but for a cinematic post-apocalypse -- starring them instead of Mel Gibson or Kevin Costner. I suggest that when the end comes, we find the people with gold and kill them first. I suspect that is pretty much how it would go down.

First, I don't own investment metals. I considered it a couple years ago, but decided that if the shite really hit the fan, then it wouldn't be worth much more than any other investment. It's only worth something in a transaction and if the currency is useless, then what does it matter if you have gold? Of course, I didn't see the the big run-up coming. If I were smarter I would have gotten in for that, which is more than likely in bubble stage, now.

Second, I completely understand why many people buy gold. They are responding to a stimulus, the same as we all do. The games that the Fed and Govt. are playing with the currency is really ugly. In all fairness, it didn't start 12 months ago, it's been going on for a while. There are scenarios that could play out that are damn near post-apocalyptic. If that were to happen, then gold might have value in theory, but the real currencies would be food, water and lead. Bad things will start when China stops buying our debt. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Third, I have some in-laws who are far lefties and peak-oilers, which is a strange combo. Anyway, If we go into the rabbit's hole, I have agreed to be a full time beer brewer. Please consider Fat Boy's Brewer in your post-apocalyptic plans.

[Tony Matthews]

Please consider Fat Boy's Brewer in your post-apocalyptic plans.

Mine's a pint.

[gruntguru]

No, that's just the slip from a State of Ohio smog check.

Seems you missed the next line of my post.

Give him a break. The guy has had EPA testing done and passed with flying colours - see report here. (Scroll down to green document and click to enlarge)

Seems the idle emissions are 30%-40% lower than the limits for a 93 Mustang - wow!!!

[McGuire]

Seems you missed the next line of my post.

Give him a break. The guy has had EPA testing done and passed with flying colours - see report here. (Scroll down to green document and click to enlarge)

Seems the idle emissions are 30%-40% lower than the limits for a 93 Mustang - wow!!!

It's even less impressive than that. The slip of paper posted on the website is not the result of "EPA testing." Something else you may have spotted: the Mustang that is billed as getting 100 mpg is an '87 but this smog check report is on a '93 car. Hmm.

[TDIMeister]

Something else you may have spotted: the Mustang that is billed as getting 100 mpg is an '87 but this smog check report is on a '93 car. Hmm.

By no means do I want to add credibility to this guy, but there could be an explanation to the different reported model year of his car in the smog check. In most jurisdictions if an engine swap has been performed with a newer one, the emissions standard to which the inspection is done shall be to the year of the newer engine.

Anyway the whole point is moot. It's not that 400 HP and 100 MPGe are mutually exclusive by ANY technology, but nothing that I see suggests he's done anything that would remotely realise that.

[pugfan]

"Features: Heater, air-conditioner, audio system, real-time eco-feedback display"

Need to define performance of heater air con and audio, otherwise I’ll give you a small loop of resistance wire, a damp rag, and an iPod Shuffle.

To be fair that usually only happens at the end of the project when it's late and someone re-reads the requirements though.

[MattPete]

I remember the Brock polarizer. It should be a black eye on Automobile magazine.

Let me explain. I was a young college student, ~19 years of age, which would put it around 1990, give or take a year or two. Automobile magazine was running a feature on a Holden (Holden? What the heck was that? Seemed pretty exotic to this American kid), and I believe it was some sort of hot-rodded Commodore. A couple of things stuck in my mind. The first was that the Commodore (or whatever it was) seemed pretty cool a for a GM sedan (rwd and all that). The second thing that stuck in my mind was the comment by the Aussies, who said that the the Mustang with IRS and some styling change would make a killer 3-series competitor (hmmm....never thought of that, but they were right at the time, and certainly better than the Merkur). The last thing that stuck in my mind was the polarizer.

The polarizer was some gizmo that clamped to the fuel line, and polarized the atoms so that they all aligned in the same direction. The side effect was not only better fuel mileage, but more horsepower, a longer schlong, thicker hair, etc. My 19-year-old brain cried out "BS!!!!", but Automobile magazine bought it hook, line, and sinker, claiming that it would find it's way into Big-3 production in the next year or two.

I've been waiting, and wondering. The link below has finally brought me closure:

http://forums.thesce...ms/t/33313.aspx

Edited by MattPete, 03 January 2010 - 04:18.

[Catalina Park]

I remember the Brock polarizer. It should be a black eye on Automobile magazine.

Let me explain. I was a young college student, ~19 years of age, which would put it around 1990, give or take a year or two. Automobile magazine was running a feature on a Holden (Holden? What the heck was that? Seemed pretty exotic to this American kid), and I believe it was some sort of hot-rodded Commodore. A couple of things stuck in my mind. The first was that the Commodore (or whatever it was) seemed pretty cool a for a GM sedan (rwd and all that). The second thing that stuck in my mind was the comment by the Aussies, who said that the the Mustang with IRS and some styling change would make a killer 3-series competitor (hmmm....never thought of that, but they were right at the time, and certainly better than the Merkur). The last thing that stuck in my mind was the polarizer.

The polarizer was some gizmo that clamped to the fuel line, and polarized the atoms so that they all aligned in the same direction. The side effect was not only better fuel mileage, but more horsepower, a longer schlong, thicker hair, etc. My 19-year-old brain cried out "BS!!!!", but Automobile magazine bought it hook, line, and sinker, claiming that it would find it's way into Big-3 production in the next year or two.

I've been waiting, and wondering. The link below has finally brought me closure:

http://forums.thesce...ms/t/33313.aspx

It never clamped to the fuel line, that would be silly.
It was mounted on the firewall and picked up reflected energy through a sticker on the rear window that acted as an aerial.

Another advantage was the ability to be able to run the tyres with 22psi.

[cheapracer]

It never clamped to the fuel line, that would be silly.

Oh but theres one about now that does exacltly that and it aligns something or rather ........no kidding.

[Lee Nicolle]

It never clamped to the fuel line, that would be silly.
It was mounted on the firewall and picked up reflected energy through a sticker on the rear window that acted as an aerial.

Another advantage was the ability to be able to run the tyres with 22psi.

But the story goes is that it was supposed to be mounted in the centre of the car, but the design of the car meant it did not fit there so it was mounted on the left side of the firewall.
Polarisers are worth big bucks to the Brock Commodore tragics.
I do know they handle better with 32lb in the tyres though. !!

[gruntguru]

Oh but theres one about now that does exacltly that and it aligns something or rather ........no kidding.

And it isn't silly either!

[gruntguru]

Gold is no better an investment than cash, it's just a different form of currency. If you need assets when the revolution comes I suggest stuff like petrol and water.

Yes gold is a currency. What makes it different is governments can't inflate it by printing more of it. Incidentally gold is the oldest currency on earth. None of the paper currencies have lasted more than a few hundred years before they were inflated out of existence.

Petrol and water sound like great investments also. Not as portable as gold though.

Edited by gruntguru, 04 January 2010 - 22:43.

[scolbourne]

second thing that stuck in my mind was the comment by the Aussies, who said that the the Mustang with IRS and some styling change would make a killer 3-series competitor (hmmm....never thought of that, but they were right at the time, and certainly better than the Merkur).
http://forums.thesce...ms/t/33313.aspx

It might interest you to know that in Australia Ford have a built such a car. The Ford Falcon uses the 5.4 litre 32 valve engine and has a LSD , independant suspension , 6 speed auto or manual etc.
It is also available with a 4 litre turbo engine. Both have similar power at 317KW which is around 450 hp. Probably more of a BMW 5 series equivalent in size but for around 30,000 US$ it is resonably good value (considering that in Oz BMWs cost 100,000 US$ )although build quality is a bit questionable.

[Lee Nicolle]

It might interest you to know that in Australia Ford have a built such a car. The Ford Falcon uses the 5.4 litre 32 valve engine and has a LSD , independant suspension , 6 speed auto or manual etc.
It is also available with a 4 litre turbo engine. Both have similar power at 317KW which is around 450 hp. Probably more of a BMW 5 series equivalent in size but for around 30,000 US$ it is resonably good value (considering that in Oz BMWs cost 100,000 US$ )although build quality is a bit questionable.

Both the Falcon and Commodore here in Oz are big rear drive grunters. The Ford has used that big 5.4 for some years in varoius guises between 260 and over 300kw. The Falcon is double wishbone front and a decent IRS rear, 6 speed manual or auto.
The Commodore is 6 litre [or 6.2] Corvette style alloy engine with again 6 speed man or auto.But has a more basic IRS and strut front.
Both good cars, the Commy is a bit quicker but the Ford drives a bit nicer and is easier on tyres.The Commy probably out handles the Ford as that 5.4 is a big heavy lump. The 4 litre 6 cyl turbo is as fast as the 8 and a bit lighter though not as nice to drive with its more peaky engine charactaristics and like all turbos more expensive on maintenance. Prices range from about 40k AUD to over a 100k for the all singing and dancing models.
These cars are based on the high volume 6 cylRWD family cars, and are both quite heavy@ over 1500 k, sometimes as much as 1800k. But big strong roomy cars, better than anything Euro or US by miles as value for dollar.How the Yank cars have fallen! FWD Chevs etc.
We also have got mechanised FWD family transport in the Camry, now advailable in hybrid!! or its better less boring big brother in the Aurion.

[McGuire]

These cars are based on the high volume 6 cylRWD family cars, and are both quite heavy@ over 1500 k, sometimes as much as 1800k. But big strong roomy cars, better than anything Euro or US by miles as value for dollar.How the Yank cars have fallen! FWD Chevs etc.

We have snow.

[imaginesix]

We have snow.

All the more reason for 450hp to the rear wheels!!!

[Terry Walker]

One version of the Holden Commodore was sold in the US as a Pontiac. And the Monaro coupe was sold in the USA as a Pontiac GTO. (Also in the UK as a Vauxhall).

Both are probably future collectibles in the US. You heard it here first.

[McGuire]

One version of the Holden Commodore was sold in the US as a Pontiac. And the Monaro coupe was sold in the USA as a Pontiac GTO. (Also in the UK as a Vauxhall).

Both are probably future collectibles in the US. You heard it here first.

Minor collectibles, more like curiosities. The GTO was sort of a dud. The IRS was weak and the first year's engine was down on power but mainly, the styling was too bland. Looked like a two-door Lumina. Sold in the USA in the 2004 through 2006 model years but there were still cars on the dealer lots in September 2007. The sales target was a conservative 18,000 per year and they never hit it. Total sales for all three years was 40,000 or so, far below expectations but still far too many to become collectible.

The four-door G8 drew better reviews but landed in the market shortly before the Pontiac division was killed. Some long-wheelbase Commodores are being imported badged as Chevrolets, police-only. There were plans to market a Ute model but they died with the Chapter 11.

To anyone buying one of these cars as an investment, I would advise waiting 5 to 10 years for the price to bottom out to zero, then buy. Then wait another 20 years for the price to recover to collector levels.