14 replies to this topic

[mariner]

There was an article recently in the business news that lead price futures are dipping because the Chinese government is thinking of changing the rules on ebikes. Tha may sound obscure but apparently so many ebikes are being sold in China that 6% of the world's lead consumption is going into them. I suspect Cheapracer could give better data than me but it seems that an ebike costs £155($250) and you can pay for it by saving about 6 months bus tickets, hence millions are being sold.

The relevance to this forum is that a bike is very efficient machine in the sense of payload to weight ratio etc. and energy vs distance. I am wondering if an ebike (with regenerative braking ) is the most efficient EV around today.

I ask that because my limited understanding of EV's is that if you can get over 30% of vehicle weight as batteries you will have acceptable performance. Logical an ebike can go way above 30% given the ability of a bike to carry a payload several times its structural weight. Obviously range is affected by what SORT of battery you use and the Chinese ebikes are still on lead/acid but have the Chinese actually found the most logical form of EV in the short term?

[cheapracer]

You didn't mention the rules to be changed to what?

I'll look it up in a few days with the help of the techs at work but point out that my city, Chengdu with 10 million people, has all electric bikes as no motorised bikes are allowed. Theres so many of them I couldn't imagine what the pollution was like before the motorised bikes were stopped.

All the cities buses and taxis are on CNG by the way (compressed natural gas) and that would be 1/4 of all the road vehicles in the city.

The Ebikes are great for workers, they ride to work, throw the battery on charge and ride home at no cost other than about 5 cents daily parking if they don't have private parking.

A city bus costs 10 or 20 cents per ride regardless of distance with a bus every 5 minutes or so, brilliant routes and service, I use them often if I have time. Friday night peak hour is an experience, often more than 200 people in a 40 seat bus!

A taxi costs about 3 to 6 dollars across town (20 to 40 minutes).

[mariner]

The article implied that the Chinese government was considering imposing a licence and riding test requirement to use an ebike. The logic was explained as the need to reduce ebike accidents. The world's commodity gamblers saw this as cutting back ebike sales so less demand for lead.

[cheapracer]

Ha!

and pigs will fly, looks like a con for some to pick up some cheap lead to me because it ain't gunna happen. In fact with the growth in the economy here the sales will only increase - for many stepping up from a bicycle to an Ebike is a quantum, and rapidly becoming available, leap.

If the licence test comes in, I know these people, they will simply study and take the test without complaint or hesitation.

The accidents will never stop, trust me on that one, just a political show of concern for votes like any country in the world.

[Fat Boy]

I read recently where about 200,000 electric bikes were sold in the US last year and about 20 million were sold in China. The numbers are a little staggering, really.

[Greg Locock]

Bit more research for you cheapy, is lead recycled from these batteries (of course it is), and if so with what sort of efficiency? Digging it out of batteries is much cheaper than digging it out of the ground.

[cheapracer]

Sure, but all I can do is ask at work.

Some of the models...



New batteries on the left, old on the right - I'll ask what happens to them...

Edited by cheapracer, 02 January 2010 - 05:27.

[gruntguru]

The relevance to this forum is that a bike is very efficient machine in the sense of payload to weight ratio etc. and energy vs distance. I am wondering if an ebike (with regenerative braking ) is the most efficient EV around today.

Measured in energy/mass.distance eg MJ/ton.km probably not very efficient.

Measured in energy/passenger.distance probably very efficient even without pedalling.

I ask that because my limited understanding of EV's is that if you can get over 30% of vehicle weight as batteries you will have acceptable performance. Logical an ebike can go way above 30% given the ability of a bike to carry a payload several times its structural weight.

That would be 30% of total vehicle mass eg 50kg of batteries of a total 150 kg ebike + passenger + batteries

Obviously range is affected by what SORT of battery you use and the Chinese ebikes are still on lead/acid but have the Chinese actually found the most logical form of EV in the short term?

Probably. One of the biggest problems with energy efficiency of personal transport is utilisation. Most common scenario in the developed world is the 5 passenger gas-guzzler with only one person aboard.

[SteveCanyon]

That would be 30% of total vehicle mass eg 50kg of batteries of a total 150 kg ebike + passenger + batteries

FWIW I'm pretty sure they (most) aren't that heavy.
The most common ones that I saw in Shanghai & Hangzou were pretty much a regular old style bicycle but with a small electric motor in the rear hub and in the bar that goes from the pedals area up to the fork bearings is much wider and holds the batteries. The batteries pop right out easily and have a handle so you can carry them, and I guess for most workers they take them to their office (or where ever) and charge them up during the day and at home at night.
I'd guess maybe 15kg for the battery pack (that right Cheapmate?) and say 40kg for the complete bike. Crap range and speed compared to the latest gear but it's enough for most locals in those cities.

Billzilla

[zac510]

I don't know anybody with an e-bike and I didn't even know they were being sold in these numbers worldwide. Is Europe miles behind on electric bike takeup?

[gruntguru]

FWIW I'm pretty sure they (most) aren't that heavy.
The most common ones that I saw in Shanghai & Hangzou were pretty much a regular old style bicycle but with a small electric motor in the rear hub and in the bar that goes from the pedals area up to the fork bearings is much wider and holds the batteries. The batteries pop right out easily and have a handle so you can carry them, and I guess for most workers they take them to their office (or where ever) and charge them up during the day and at home at night.
I'd guess maybe 15kg for the battery pack (that right Cheapmate?) and say 40kg for the complete bike. Crap range and speed compared to the latest gear but it's enough for most locals in those cities.

Oh yeah - nowhere near 50kg.

[zw404]

I'm living in Shanghai and have got an ebike (around 150 pounds at the time of 2006, even cheaper right now) myself. I heard about the govenment ban or restriction on using ebike (max. speed>30kmh) long time ago but this is not a hot pubilc topic in China any more as the govenment has lifted the ban saying that the logic behind (high ebike accident rate) is premature.

Ebike is not quite popular in a big city like Shanghai as it is in relatively small city like Chengdu where cheapracer is living considering the limited cruising range it is able to cover (<15km/charge). But still it is quite convenient to ride in suburbs. Ebike is forbiden in city center though.

I'll back the ban if the logic behind is environment related as I'm not aware of battery recycling process here. My battery died a couple of months ago and all I need to do is swaping the used battery cell for new ones at a cost of not more than 30 pounds.

[cheapracer]

Ebike is not quite popular in a big city like Shanghai as it is in relatively small city like Chengdu where cheapracer is living.

Ebike is forbiden in city center though.

Yeah real small, theres only 10 million people here, I know almost everyone by name
Actually if you say Cheng, Li or Wang you're on target most of the time

Ebikes are everywhere here, bastards even take them in the elevators to their offices and units.

[SeanBlue]

any concern about noise pollution? they're practically silent aren't they?

[cheapracer]

any concern about noise pollution? they're practically silent aren't they?

The high quality Chinese plastic rattling away and falling to the ground is all you hear sometimes with a slight whirr.

When you first arrive they are deadly as you step onto the road and don't hear them coming, you get used to it after a while.

Whats worse here is the Ricer cult is creeping in with all the "Lieutenant Slows" and their stock 1.6's with 3" exhausts, not so many yet but it will happen. The Ricers here are hilarious, huge body kits with all the racing stickers yet running 175 tyres!

Edited by cheapracer, 16 February 2010 - 03:58.