51 replies to this topic

[THE "driverider"]

Could a handicapped driver race in Formula One?

I mean, would the rules and regulations of the FIA actually allow it if a handicapped driver wanted to enter Formula One, we have Alex Zanardi and Jason Watt racing in touring cars. Now this is question to whether the FIA would allow it with adjustments to the car, not if the driver would be physically able to cope with the G-Forces and such.

[MegaManson]

Could a handicapped driver race in Formula One?

I mean, would the rules and regulations of the FIA actually allow it if a handicapped driver wanted to enter Formula One, we have Alex Zanardi and Jason Watt racing in touring cars. Now this is question to whether the FIA would allow it with adjustments to the car, not if the driver would be physically able to cope with the G-Forces and such.

No

A driver has to be able to get out of an F1 car in a fixed number of seconds, Zanardi wouldn't be able to

[THE "driverider"]

No

A driver has to be able to get out of an F1 car in a fixed number of seconds, Zanardi wouldn't be able to

I did forget about that rule actually. I was wondering if in the next 10 years that a handicapped driver would be in Formula One (like Archie Scott Brown and Alan Stacey).

[undersquare]

I don't think it's automatic that say Zanardi wouldn't be able to exit the car in 5 seconds. In many ways it's the arms they use, the lower legs are actually a problem for a lot of the process. Disabled people often develop huge upper body strength and new ways of doing things.

They would need power brakes though, currently banned.

[Mungo Fangio of the Year]

Maybe in future. I'd hate if some massive driver ability would be ignored.

[dank]

Could a handicapped driver race in Formula One?

I mean, would the rules and regulations of the FIA actually allow it if a handicapped driver wanted to enter Formula One, we have Alex Zanardi and Jason Watt racing in touring cars. Now this is question to whether the FIA would allow it with adjustments to the car, not if the driver would be physically able to cope with the G-Forces and such.

You know there is a difference between being handicapped and disabled?

[Kalmake]

In theory, hand devices are better controllers, because of shorter reaction times and better agility.

Zanardi in WTCC used foot brake. Throttle was on streering wheel. He did fine.

[Louis Siefert]

In theory, hand devices are better controllers, because of shorter reaction times and better agility.

Zanardi in WTCC used foot brake. Throttle was on streering wheel. He did fine.

I think I read that Zanardi was able to extricate himself from the cockpit in the required time so that he could do a promotional ride in the Williams that never materialized

much the same as Nannini was scheduled to test a Benetton after his mishap and never did in the end

[Hairpin]

You know there is a difference between being handicapped and disabled?

What is the difference?

[Demo.]

What is the difference?

a handicapped person could just have say partial hearing loss, or loss of feeling in a hand a disabled person is someone who has a physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.
So in short it is a matter of severity and impact on lifestyle.
A Disabled person is always handicapped but a handicapped person is not always disabled.

[V8 Fireworks]

No

A driver has to be able to get out of an F1 car in a fixed number of seconds, Zanardi wouldn't be able to

That's illegal and FIA will get sued by EU anti-discrimination IMO.

F1 racing teams are independent and are entitled to hire the best driver for the job.

FIA is not NASA and not able to hire their own drivers/astronauts to their specifications IMO.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 02 January 2010 - 02:25.

[William Hunt]

I guess few of you have heard of Archie-Scott Brown. He was handicaped since birth and I immediately thought of him when I saw this thread.

Scott-Brown was a superb Scottish sporscar driver from the 1950's who also drove an F1 race for Connaught in 1956. He lost his life in 1958 when he was dueling with Masten Gregory for the lead of a sportscar race in Spa Francorschamps.

Edited by William Hunt, 02 January 2010 - 02:27.

[Hairpin]

a handicapped person could just have say partial hearing loss, or loss of feeling in a hand a disabled person is someone who has a physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.
So in short it is a matter of severity and impact on lifestyle.
A Disabled person is always handicapped but a handicapped person is not always disabled.

But hearing loss is a disability.

[Demo.]

That's illegal and FIA will get sued by EU anti-discrimination IMO.

F1 racing teams are independent and are entitled to hire the best driver for the job.

FIA is not NASA and not able to hire their own drivers/astronauts to their specifications IMO.

No they can use health and safety as a restriction on eligibility.
As it can clearly be shown that the rule is not one based on a disability but on safety grounds and that is very very different. it does not say in the rules anything about if a person is able bodied or not which would be discrimination only that the person can get out of the car within 5 seconds.

Edited by Demo., 02 January 2010 - 02:55.

[pingu666]

hmm
if it was some zinardi like who has lost most of there legs, i guess they could pull themselves up so there bum is level with the top of the car, then basicaly just topple over out of the car. wouldnt need to remove or put the stearing wheel back on...

[Demo.]

But hearing loss is a disability.

no partial hearing loss could be just the base frequencies for instance and then that person has no substantial and long-term adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.
you have to understand the difference between common usage of the words and legal definitions.
You are using the incorrect common usage not the real meanings of the words.

the easiest way to think of disabled and handicapped is
A handicapped person is someone who is LESS able to carry out one or more actions (but still can carry out those actions to a limited degree) a disabled person is NOT able to carry out one or more actions.
The person with loss of low frequency sounds can still hear and is handicapped.
The deaf person cannot hear and is disabled.
or think of a car that is handicapped by only having 7 out of 8 spark plugs working compared to a car that is disabled due to having all its spark plugs failed.

And sorry if anyone thinks its off topic but it is related to the thread after all it is good to understand the difference as it does relate to the OP

Edited by Demo., 02 January 2010 - 03:34.

[Hairpin]

no partial hearing loss could be just the base frequencies for instance and then that person has no substantial and long-term adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.
you have to understand the difference between common usage of the words and legal definitions.
You are using the incorrect common usage not the real meanings of the words.

If there is o substantial and long-term adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities, it is not a handicap.

[Demo.]

If there is o substantial and long-term adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities, it is not a handicap.

sorry what are you saying as i did add to my post you quoted
I hope the example about cars and spark plugs shows it in a form you understand.
remember anyone who is disabled, is handicapped. but not everyone who is handicapped is disabled.

Edited by Demo., 02 January 2010 - 03:32.

[Imperial]

Definition as told to me by a 100% deaf man, who delivered a deaf-awareness course I attended:

At home he has various devices to help him out, outside of the house he doesnt. He only becomes disabled when he leaves the house, as he no longer has the devices that at home enable him. The same applies to other handicaps.

[jee]

I think I read that Zanardi was able to extricate himself from the cockpit in the required time so that he could do a promotional ride in the Williams that never materialized

There was a test for BMW actually

[JtP1]

No

A driver has to be able to get out of an F1 car in a fixed number of seconds, Zanardi wouldn't be able to

Which is why Martin Donnelly retired from GP racing. With his damaged legs, he could not exit the car within the required time which I think is 10 seconds.

Even in the past, it has been a problem for drivers. After Archie Scott Brown's accident, the RAC took a stricter view of physically impaired drivers. Because of this, David Goode was refused a medical certificate to race in the immediate aftermath of ASB accident, Alan Stacey probably already had his medical certificate. So David G went hillclimbing where no medical was required. By the time the RAC relented, DG was into hill climbing and stayed there.

I know of someone who missed half a season's hill climbing after failing the eyesight for a medical. With his visual impairment, he failed to read that medicals were only required to race in these days. He eventually got his glasses and nearly had about 10 accidents driving home with them on, so threw them away and competed in hill climbs for many years. He now races wearing glasses 40 years on.

[Motormedia]

Jean-Pierre Beltoise's left arm was severly restricted after a serious accident in a sports car race, if I remember correctly. He continued driving after that and with some success in F1.

[Frans]

Yes.

but should he? No.

[giacomo]

Could a handicapped driver race in F1? Yes, perhaps he could.
But could a handicapped driver race in F1 on a competitive level? I doubt it.


Btw, it depends a lot on the definition of 'being handicapped'. Does a missing toe or finger count?

[midgrid]

much the same as Nannini was scheduled to test a Benetton after his mishap and never did in the end

Are you sure about that?

[Hairpin]

Definition as told to me by a 100% deaf man, who delivered a deaf-awareness course I attended:

At home he has various devices to help him out, outside of the house he doesnt. He only becomes disabled when he leaves the house, as he no longer has the devices that at home enable him. The same applies to other handicaps.

"Handicapped" has for some reason become bad word, therefore 'disabled' is used more frequently. In Sweden the word is 'invalid'. Not valid. Disabled. Why that is better I do not know but the discussion is not really about semantics, it's about PC.

Handicap
Some people with disabilities do not like the term "handicap" because of a belief that it originally meant someone who could not work and went begging with their cap in hand. This, however, appears to not be the true origin of the word. It originated in a lottery game known as Hand In Cap in the 1600s which involved players placing money in a cap. It moved later into horse racing where it meant bringing the strongest competitors (a term to please the disabled!) back to the field by giving them extra weight to carry. In golf, it became the number of strokes a player could subtract from his score to give him a chance against better players, so a bigger handicap is actually an advantage in golf. Only in 1915 did it become a term to describe the disabled, when it was used to describe crippled children

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Disability

[Slartibartfast]

Definition as told to me by a 100% deaf man, who delivered a deaf-awareness course I attended:

At home he has various devices to help him out, outside of the house he doesnt. He only becomes disabled when he leaves the house, as he no longer has the devices that at home enable him. The same applies to other handicaps.

[cynic] I doubt if he uses that argument when claiming Disability Allowance from the government. [/cynic]

The following is entirely guesswork, based on nothing more than what enters my head as I stare at the clouds hurtling across the sky:

I think that if there were a driver with sufficient promise but with a handicap/disability (delete as inapplicable) that prevented him using the controls in the way mandated by the technical regulations, whichever team wanted to put him in their car would approach the FIA and ask for a waiver. The FIA would then investigate an acceptable modification and allow the driver to compete with it, providing the other teams agreed to the waiver. My precedent for this would be Ferrari asking the FIA to allow Schumacher to test last year. I doubt if any of the teams would object.

[britishtrident]

Google Archie Scott Brown


Archie Scott Brown , "A phenomenal pilot with uncanny car control…" JM Fangio

Edited by britishtrident, 02 January 2010 - 14:15.

[jeze]

In modern F1 - no way.

In the olden days, well Archie could, so then it was surely possible. But disabled drivers have a better chance in touring cars (Zanardi) and in karts. I don't think it'd be possible for them to sustain the physical pressure of a single-seater. That's why I think the young American under-knee amputee Brett Smrz won't go long than Formula Ford, even though he has heaps of basic talent.

[Pato]

What about if a driver had perfect vision in one eye but was visually impared in the other? Sounds random but this is true for me.

[Just waiting]

If Douglas Bader could do what he did without legs,
then it would seem that "reasonable accomodation" should be made to permit others to race........


As to impaired vision in one eye, while MS does not seem to have as much of a problem currently, but if you look carefully at videos and photos from earlier times, you can clearly see that he suffers (sufferred) from slight "lazy eye" where both eyes do not track together perfectly

this can indicate blindness in one eye, and/or indicate that he does not have perfect stereo or depth perception, as this symptom is a usual sign that the brain is ignoring the images from the eye not tracking perfectly

Edited by Just waiting, 02 January 2010 - 15:02.

[Just waiting]

Only slightly appears in this photo.

A fact revealed after he retired, Bob Griese a hall of fame quarterback for the NFL dolphins, was blind in one eye, something which he successfully hid throughout his active career.....

[Just waiting]

This image originally posted on http://forums.autosp...howtopic=120771 by Ferrari_F1_Fan_2001........



........ but surely it's what this thread was created for!!

another one

I could find more, but i would not know how to post them here as i can only do it through the quote system. It is a clear case of right eye dominance with the left eye not always tracking

Edited by Just waiting, 02 January 2010 - 15:01.

[THE "driverider"]

You know there is a difference between being handicapped and disabled?

I do know, considering I was disabled myself when I was young and in a wheelchair.

[Paul Parker]

William Hunt Jan 2 2010
I guess few of you have heard of Archie-Scott Brown. He was handicaped since birth and I immediately thought of him when I saw this thread.

Scott-Brown was a superb Scottish sporscar driver from the 1950's who also drove an F1 race for Connaught in 1956. He lost his life in 1958 when he was dueling with Masten Gregory for the lead of a sportscar race in Spa Francorschamps.
[/quote]


In fact ASB was very physically handicapped and had if memory serves correctly, no shinbones, reversed feet and a stump for a right arm.

This was caused by his mother contracting german measles during pregnancy. According to later reports his 'stump' was beginning to bleed trying to grip the s/wheel rim with the increasing grip levels of the time and had he survived he would have eventually required a prosthetic arm/hand to drive successfully. He was allegedly possessed of a phenomenal sense of balance, perhaps because of his physical defects, and was supposedly able to balance feet up on a stationary bicycle.

Today and for many years past he would not have been able, let alone allowed, to race.

[Hyde]

I guess few of you have heard of Archie-Scott Brown. He was handicaped since birth and I immediately thought of him when I saw this thread.

Scott-Brown was a superb Scottish sporscar driver from the 1950's who also drove an F1 race for Connaught in 1956. He lost his life in 1958 when he was dueling with Masten Gregory for the lead of a sportscar race in Spa Francorschamps.

I did too but as I recall he was not allowed the full international licence of the period. His F1 drives in Connaught & Maserati ( didn't he drive Moss's 250F personally owned car? Could be wrong there) were in national events in the UK.

[pRy]

I noticed Schumachers slight eye difference in a press conference years ago.

[WebBerK]

What about if a driver had perfect vision in one eye but was visually impared in the other? Sounds random but this is true for me.

Are you talking about Sir Jackie Stewart, The strabic ?

Ayrton Senna raced part of a season with half face paralysis due to some virus.

Nelson Piquet had vision problems [deep calculation] after his shunt at Parabolica, that has hurt his braking, but even though managed to become WDC that year.

[Peter Leversedge]

I was lucky enough to see Archie Scott Brown racing. Wigram 1958 and I will never forget how he drove that Lister Jag.
Could Mel Kenyon drive a midget !!
Could Dean Thompson drive a sprint car !!
and the list goes on

Edited by Peter Leversedge, 03 January 2010 - 10:39.

[cheapracer]

No

A driver has to be able to get out of an F1 car in a fixed number of seconds, Zanardi wouldn't be able to

With the way anti discrimination laws are I reckon FIA officials would have to carry the car for him as well as a 40 lap headstart.

Waybe Rainey ex Moto GP 500cc WRC and paraplegic, races Karts and in my town a 1 legged guy rallied with a motorcycle clutch lever on the gearstick.

[Rob]

I did too but as I recall he was not allowed the full international licence of the period. His F1 drives in Connaught & Maserati ( didn't he drive Moss's 250F personally owned car? Could be wrong there) were in national events in the UK.

He raced in the 1956 British Grand Prix. That's an international event.

[Hairpin]

What about midgets/dwarfs? Imagine how much space could be used to optimize the car if the driver is only a meter tall.

[Just waiting]

I noticed Schumachers slight eye difference in a press conference years ago.

Yes, I wonder why no seems to have commented on it (at least as far as I am aware of) .....I noticed it from watching a rerun of the post race interview where Senna died, it was real bad, probably due to stress I guess. That was the first time.

I have known people who went blind or nearly blind in one eye and they have not had any noticeable change or difference while others that do have the blind eye, it ranges from very slightly noticeable to extreme.

In any event, I have looked for it in other F1 drivers, and have not seen anything like what MS has.

[Hairpin]

Yes, I wonder why no seems to have commented on it (at least as far as I am aware of) .....I noticed it from watching a rerun of the post race interview where Senna died, it was real bad, probably due to stress I guess. That was the first time.

I have known people who went blind or nearly blind in one eye and they have not had any noticeable change or difference while others that do have the blind eye, it ranges from very slightly noticeable to extreme.

In any event, I have looked for it in other F1 drivers, and have not seen anything like what MS has.

I remember Williams experimenting with some kind of on-visor HUD for Ralf, apparently he had some problems with his eysight as well. It might have been related to peripheral vision, but I do not remember.

[Just waiting]

I remember Williams experimenting with some kind of on-visor HUD for Ralf, apparently he had some problems with his eysight as well. It might have been related to peripheral vision, but I do not remember.

Now that you mention it, I think I remember reading somewhere that he had laser surgery to his eyes at some point. I never noticed any of the lazy eye appearance with him.

Not heard about the visor thing.
as to whether MShas any vision problems or actual impirment (depth perception or otherwise), I do not know, except that the eye tracking would seem to indicate something, it would seem

[stevewf1]

Handicapped, disabled... Permanent or temporary... Not Formula 1, but Greg Moore drove with a hand/wrist injury he received just before that fateful race. I remember reading at the time there was speculation that this injury could have impaired his ability to control the car. Should he have been allowed to race? Should he have been declared (temporarily) handicapped?

[GoShow]

Handicapped, disabled... Permanent or temporary... Not Formula 1, but Greg Moore drove with a hand/wrist injury he received just before that fateful race. I remember reading at the time there was speculation that this injury could have impaired his ability to control the car. Should he have been allowed to race? Should he have been declared (temporarily) handicapped?

What a sad race that was. Hard to say if they should have prevented him from starting. If he had won the race it would have been heroic and everybody saying how brave he was.
Poor Greg, sadly missed.

[bill moffat]

OK if the question was "has" rather than "could" then the answer is definitely yes.

Alan Stacey lost his right lower leg in his teenage years but went on to become Number 2 to Innes Ireland at Lotus in 1960. He put in some good performances but in his 7th GP was involved in a fatal crash at Spa - the circuit which also accounted for Archie & his Lister.

[pingu666]

paul drayson got the FIA to change there mind on one eyed drivers. hes blind in one eye, and raced in ALMS and LMS and le mans, with his own team. oh and hes the science and technology minister for the british government aswell

[Chezrome]

Actually... I think Zanardi could get out of a Formula 1 cockpit quicker than any driver with legs. First: he doesn't have to take the wheel out (no legs). Second: he is that strong in his arms he is very able to deadlift himself from a cockpit. Third: he doesn't have legs so his upper arm strength doesn't need to be that strong to lift himself!