16 replies to this topic

[V8 Fireworks]

Wondering on this.

In NASCAR there are perhaps 5-6+ levels. Recently, every single level races enormous 5.8 L stockcars, and many of the levels below the tightly controlled 2nd and 3rd tier, are very fast and close to Cup in speed. There are many road courses contested in lower level NASCAR series outside the top 3 tiers too, so the variety of circuits is challenging at all levels.

Yet in the F1 ladder, only the next two levels down (GP2 and WSbR) are even close to F1 in performance. (Although the mandatory top level karting experience rivals or exceeds F1 cornering intensity)

Which ladder is generally more difficult to "climb" to the top series?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 03 January 2010 - 21:17.

[Nathan]

My unexucated guess is that it would be more difficult to adapt to the car for a F1 hopeful due to the greater differences between them and the junior cars, but more competitive to get a NASCAR ride.

Edited by Nathan, 03 January 2010 - 21:20.

[Hairpin]

Wondering on this.

In NASCAR there are perhaps 5-6+ levels. Recently, every single level races enormous 5.8 L stockcars, and many of the levels below the tightly controlled 2nd and 3rd tier, are very fast and close to Cup in speed. There are many road courses contested in lower level NASCAR series outside the top 3 tiers too, so the variety of circuits is challenging at all levels.

Yet in the F1 ladder, only the next two levels down (GP2 and WSbR) are even close to F1 in performance. (Although the mandatory top level karting experience rivals or exceeds F1 cornering intensity)

Which ladder is generally more difficult to "climb" to the top series?

The "ladder" for F1 is very... not really existing, it is more a mountain to climb until you reach GP2. You must also get sponsorship very early during the climb since the lower series does not really support themselves. I do not know how much it costs to do a season in the lower NASCAR feeder series, but I do think it is cheaper. So my answer is: NASCAR is easier because a ladder exists and it is easy to compare and evaluate a driver from a lower series.

[Spunout]

The difficulty is mostly based on level of competition. In F1 ladder, because of international talent pool, there are more hopefuls trying to earn their place in F1, but ultimately less seats available for them. 20+ vs 43. Think about it. If there were more NASCAR hopefuls than F1 hopefuls, with only 10 available seats in the Cup series. The same thing.

Hell, if somebody still wants to argue: F1 dropouts can move to NASCAR. Does anybody seriously think any of the F1 teams would accept NASCAR dropouts? Especially the ones without past road course/open-wheel expertise? Hell no.

Because of these factors alone, F1 ladder is tougher to climb. Of course, if you want more than your place in F1/NASCAR, then it´s different situation. Getting to NASCAR may be easier, but actually beating JJ for the title isn´t.

When it comes to sponsorship, keep this in mind: it is not merely about money needed - it is also about money available. In NASCAR ladder, the budgets may be smaller, but that doesn´t mean collecting the required money is any easier.

So that´s my take. Please, "I think NASCAR is thougher because Juan is there now" squad: I am not saying one series is better/more demanding than another (re-read my point about beating Jimmie). I am merely pointing out F1 is more "exclusive", mostly because there are so many candidates and so few seats.

Edited by Spunout, 03 January 2010 - 23:33.

[V8 Fireworks]

In NASCAR ladder, the budgets may be smaller, but that doesn´t mean collecting the required money is any easier.

Is it fair to say that regional stock car races are more popular with sponsors than Formula Renault for example though?

[Spunout]

Is it fair to say that regional stock car races are more popular with sponsors than Formula Renault for example though?

I don´t think it is fair to compare regional stock car races & Formula Renault. FRenault is pretty high on F1 ladder.

If Cup = F1, Nationwide = GP2, etc...you´ll get my point ;)

PS. going back to OP, I would not focus too much on cars; it is unlikely beating Lewis Hamilton or Jimmie Johnson would get much easier, even if you replaced GP2 car or downtuned Cup car with something less impressive. Competition is the main challenge. Those who cannot handle high hp cars will be rooted out anyway.

Edited by Spunout, 03 January 2010 - 23:41.

[Demo.]

The difficulty is mostly based on level of competition. In F1 ladder, because of international talent pool, there are more hopefuls trying to earn their place in F1, but ultimately less seats available for them. 20+ vs 43. Think about it. If there were more NASCAR hopefuls than F1 hopefuls, with only 10 available seats in the Cup series. The same thing.

Hell, if somebody still wants to argue: F1 dropouts can move to NASCAR. Does anybody seriously think any of the F1 teams would accept NASCAR dropouts? Especially the ones without past road course/open-wheel expertise? Hell no.

Because of these factors alone, F1 ladder is tougher to climb. Of course, if you want more than your place in F1/NASCAR, then it´s different situation. Getting to NASCAR may be easier, but actually beating JJ for the title isn´t.

When it comes to sponsorship, keep this in mind: it is not merely about money needed - it is also about money available. In NASCAR ladder, the budgets may be smaller, but that doesn´t mean collecting the required money is any easier.

So that´s my take. Please, "I think NASCAR is thougher because Juan is there now" squad: I am not saying one series is better/more demanding than another (re-read my point about beating Jimmie). I am merely pointing out F1 is more "exclusive", mostly because there are so many candidates and so few seats.

As said above in the end you have to beat your fellow competitors in each series to generally progress as each series tends to be restricted to type both are as hard as each other to progress through but until you get to the last step F1 or NASCAR, atleast with the F1 route if you fail in one class you have the option of trying another class which could even be 1/2 way round the world.
Do you get that same opportunity with the NASCAR ladder?

Edited by Demo., 04 January 2010 - 02:28.

[tkulla]

I think F1's ladder is tougher, because there's no established "right way" to progress to the top of it. In NASCAR, as a young driver it's much easier (and cheaper) to get a start, and plenty of opportunities to get noticed and move up. And even more importantly, plenty of time to hone your craft. The window to make it to F1 is very narrow. A driver must be very impressive in a short amount of time to even get a shot, and even then they'll be lucky to even get a test. Then he has to be very impressive at the test to get a ride. Then he has to come out of the gate well in his first season or he's all done. There's more patience in NASCAR.

Also, the Nationwide Series (the second tier) is a much bigger deal here in the USA than GP2 is in Europe and Asia. There's tons of sponsorship even at that level and lots of people watching. Plus they get to race against the top drivers from the Sprint Cup, who often move down to race in the NS as well.

Edited by tkulla, 04 January 2010 - 02:39.

[BMW_F1]

although there are 43 cars competing in NASCAR, every year you only see a handfull of rookies (these are the guys we are talking about, right?) - similar number to what you have in F1.. Its kind of like Gp2.. where only those who really impress get to move up the ladder. Also, this year in f1 is not much about talent for new drivers but how much money they can bring..

Edited by BMW_F1, 04 January 2010 - 02:56.

[Risil]

F1 is the top single seater series. NASCAR is the ladder. This semantic point actually illustrates the difference quite well.

[loki]

Until you get to trucks fully funded rides are rare unless you are in a big Cup team development program. Most people racing on the regional in the US, be it circle track, road racing or drags are self funded rides with some support from others. There is prize money that makes up some of the budget, for example racing super late models it might pay for your tires and fuel and maybe food for your crew, most if not all are volunteer.

How many on this thread bloviating about how easy the stock car ladder is have actually even seen a stock car in person? While all racing shares similar traits, stock car racing in the US is much different than formula car racing in Europe. Over here stock car racing overall is primarily composed of hobbiest level drivers. There might be 150 or so drivers at the national touring level, but there are tens of thousands at the regional and local level. In fact, most lower level racing is not NASCAR sanctioned. The rest of the world does not have the depth of participatory motorsport culture that we do in the US. While there are a bunch of young guns coming up, most are like me, old duffers out for fun on a Saturday night.

[Simon Says]

To reach F1, you better have a rich daddy. I got offered a seat in single-seaters but when I realised how much money was involved in it, I said goodbye to the sport. I had some sponsers back then, but that wasn't going to cover the costs

You got to be very lucky, not just be a good driver but also have alot of cash. I suppose Nascar is much cheaper so there is much more competition.

[Rob G]

F1 is the top single seater series. NASCAR is the ladder. This semantic point actually illustrates the difference quite well.

Eh? There hasn't been a driver who has climbed up from NASCAR to F1 since, arguably, Mario Andretti. If anything, with the moves that drivers like Speed, Montoya, and others have made lately, I guess you could call NASCAR the fire escape.

[alg7_munif]

F1 dropouts can move to NASCAR. Does anybody seriously think any of the F1 teams would accept NASCAR dropouts? Especially the ones without past road course/open-wheel expertise? Hell no.

That is sadly the truth

Edited by alg7_munif, 04 January 2010 - 18:21.

[Simon Says]

Eh? There hasn't been a driver who has climbed up from NASCAR to F1 since, arguably, Mario Andretti. If anything, with the moves that drivers like Speed, Montoya, and others have made lately, I guess you could call NASCAR the fire escape.

Montoya was one of the best F1 drivers around. And he hasn't won any title in Nascar I believe so far. So it isn't as easy as you think it is.

[nosaj100]

To be fair, I don't know much about the F1 "ladder". I'm only a casual fan of F1 and don't follow it enough to know the details. From what I've seen, the road to F1 appears quite tough and at times, cut-throat. I know a lot more about Nascar however. I'll say Nascar's ladder is easier. I don't know what its like in F1, but in Nascar, heck, some drivers get promoted simply because they have "the look of a driver". This was especially true over the last decade in which many young "stars" were rushed through the levels on up to Cup because they had a nice smile, said the right things, and the Corporate World liked them even though their on track performance didn't warrant any of their rewards. That could be true in other racing series as well though. It just seems a lot more prevalent in Nascar.

Also, in Nascar, the biggest hurdle imo is getting from a small regional series into either the Truck series or Nationwide series. Most all the large teams have development programs that will pick out a kid early even if he just shows a slight flash of talent. Then once you're in either of the main lower series, it's only a matter of time before you work your way up (especially if you're a young pretty face). The only issue then is if the driver is actually talented enough to get and hold onto a Cup ride.

[Risil]

Eh? There hasn't been a driver who has climbed up from NASCAR to F1 since, arguably, Mario Andretti. If anything, with the moves that drivers like Speed, Montoya, and others have made lately, I guess you could call NASCAR the fire escape.

Whoops. I meant that F1 and NASCAR are separate systems. The difference being that F1 describes the pinnacle -- the infinitesimal point of four-wheeled European road racing, and NASCAR a large proportion of the American speedway racing scene. Considering what's happened to the Indy 500 over the last 30 years, USAC's becoming part of the ladder, too, even if it's still a bit of a sideways move. So maybe NASCAR's becoming increasingly F1-style exclusive, who knows.

Not saying that NASCAR is a stepping stone to F1. That'd be an admirably complete defiance of the facts of the case.

Edited by Risil, 04 January 2010 - 22:39.