75 replies to this topic

[robin2c4]

Hi there,

New to this forum, but I am hoping that someone might be able to help me find out some information about competitors and finishers in the 1955 Monte Carlo Rally - specifically those starting from Glasgow.

My interest stems from my cherished car number plate NS 3535 which - like me - has Sutherland roots. When first issued this number plate was on a 1.5 litre Riley which took part in the 1955 Monte. The car was owned by Robert (Bertie) Sutherland who lived in Golspie (in the County of Sutherland), and I understand that he and his brother Ian competed in the rally. I think Ian was the main driver.

I knew Bertie, and he gave me a copy of a photograph of him and his brother in the Riley with the NS 3535 number plate, and sporting a Monte Carlo Rally plate showing that the Riley was car number 113. The photo shows them rounding the corner from Blythswood Street onto St. Vincent Street. St. Columba's Church can be seen in the background. Link to photo below:

http://s879.photobuc...ser_media_share

They obviously started the Rally, but I don't know if they completed it - I'd be grateful for any help on this - hopefully someone has a list or can point me to a book or website? I think that the same brothers took part in other Monte Carlo rallies around that date - again, I'd welcome any additional information.

I did find some good footage from the 1955 Monte on the British Pathe website (link below), but unfortunately Car number 113 isn't featured:

http://www.britishpa...rd.php?id=63243

Many thanks!

Robin

[David McKinney]

According to Autosport, No.113 in the 1955 Monte was a Standard driven by John Lawrence and A Thompson, starting from Glasgow. W Sutherland and R Sutherland (Riley) were 66. A later report refers to W Sutherland and I Sutherland (Riley), and in another place there is mention of "the two Sutherland brothers, William and Ian, who brought their Riley down from Wick".
I can't find any reference to them after they caught the Dover ferry. They are not listed in the top 100 in the overall classification
I wondered if your No.113 might have been a year earlier or a year later, but 113 was not a Glasgow starting number in either 1954 or 1956

Edited by David McKinney, 07 January 2010 - 11:23.

[robin2c4]

Hi David,

Thanks for your prompt response and for your research.

Unfortunately the detail on photo I have isn't clear enough for me to read the year date on the Monte Carlo plate on the car - but the Sutherland bros. obviously drove car number 113 in the Monte at some point circa. 1955, (although from what you say, it wasn't either '54, '55 or '56)...

You mention Autosport as your source. Are you looking at magazines from the time, or is there a summary book or publication I could try to refer to in order to search entries for other years?

Many thanks,

Robin

[Darren Galpin]

In 1959, the Sutherland brothers finished 61st in a Riley with 1608 pts (see http://www.teamdan.c.../59miscra.html). Don't know the car number for this event though.

[Odseybod]

In 1959, the Sutherland brothers finished 61st in a Riley with 1608 pts (see http://www.teamdan.c.../59miscra.html). Don't know the car number for this event though.

If it was a Riley 1.5 (as opposed to a 1 1/2 litre), 1959 would be a more likely date,as the car was only introduced in 1957.

[robin2c4]

If it was a Riley 1.5 (as opposed to a 1 1/2 litre), 1959 would be a more likely date,as the car was only introduced in 1957.

Thanks Tony - yes, it was definitely a Riley 1.5 as shown here:

http://www.motorbase...707/index.ehtml

That means the Rally I'm looking for (Sutherland brothers, Riley, car number 113) was definitely 1957 or later.

[Darren Galpin]

Thanks Tony - yes, it was definitely a Riley 1.5 as shown here:

http://www.motorbase...707/index.ehtml

That means the Rally I'm looking for (Sutherland brothers, Riley, car number 113) was definitely 1957 or later.

The '57 rally was cancelled due to petrol rationing, so that leaves only 1958 and 1959..... And they were there in 1959.

[robin2c4]

Adding some more clarification -

It seems that Bertie Sutherland's initials were "W R Sutherland", so the W & I noted are most likely him and his brother Ian.

I have also found out that they drove the 1.5 litre Riley in the 1958 Monte. Could this be the occasion on which my photo was taken?

Grateful for confirmation of entry or completion information for the Sutherland brothers.

Many thanks,

Robin

[RS2000]

"The Legendary RMs" lists William and Ian Sutherland on the 1955 Monte in NS2525 (presumably an incorrect reg no). No other data, not even a model (presumably an RME?). Photo won't open for me.

Edited by RS2000, 07 January 2010 - 17:06.

[David McKinney]

You mention Autosport as your source. Are you looking at magazines from the time, or is there a summary book or publication I could try to refer to in order to search entries for other years?

No, my sagging shelves of bound copies

And, like RS2000, I've yet to see your photo...

Edited by David McKinney, 07 January 2010 - 17:31.

[robin2c4]

Sorry about the failed photo link. I see elsewhere on this Forum that imageshack is recommended, so trying that - hope this link works:

http://img513.images...llystartgla.jpg

It's interesting to hear that the Sutherland brothers were listed with an NS 2525 car in 1955. It wouldn't be a misprint, as Bertie had that number as well and kept it for many years.

[RS2000]

1959 Monte entry list shows No.113 Glasgow start, Riley, Ian Sutherland/William Sutherland. I don't have the 58 list. There's a French book (by Maurice Lelouche?) that seems to have entry lists - judging by the number of times Forum Auto posters manage to come up with lists.

Edited by RS2000, 07 January 2010 - 19:19.

[robin2c4]

Thanks RS2000 - that seems to clinch it - my photo is from the 1959 Monte.

All help much appreciated guys!

[RS2000]

One further bit of information. Marcus Chambers wrote in "Works Wonders" about the 1956 Monte:
"The intrepid Scots, Archie and Ian Sutherland, won the Autosport Trophy, for the best performance by a British crew driving their own car, in their Riley Pathfinder".
That suggests their 55 Monte car might have been the same Pathfinder(RMH) rather than an earlier RM.

Chambers also writes that for the next (58, with the 57 cancellation) Monte, 1000 Riley 1.5s had not yet been built and the cars (2 works cars entered but no mention of private entrants) had to run in "Special Series". He doesn't say so but I think 58 was the first year of Appendix J as we now understand it and it actually means the 1.5 had yet to be homologated in Group 1 and 2 and had to run in Group 3 with GT cars. So no confirmation of whether the Sutherlands did the 58 Monte or whether they had a Pathfinder or a new 1.5 then.

Edited by RS2000, 08 January 2010 - 17:31.

[camerat]

Bonjour,

The Sutherland at Rallye Monte-Carlo:
1953 Sutherland and Sutherland Riley 2,4L n° 212
1954 Sutherland and Sutherland Riley 2,4L n° 159
1955 Sutherland and Sutherland Riley 2,4L n° 66
1956 Sutherland and Sutherland Riley 2,4L n° 216
1958 Sutherland and Stokes Riley 1,5L n° 177
1959 Sutherland and Sutherland Riley 1,5L n° 113

[cuf3]

Hi
My Father was number 124 in 1955 starting from Glasgow in a Ford Consul GRN 177.

I think 1955 was the 25th Anniversary of the rally presumably with the war years missing

I have looked through all my photos but cannot see a number 113 sorry

David

[robin2c4]

RS2000 and camarat – many thanks for this additional info, I appreciate the research you have done to help me out.

Hi David – thanks for looking through your photos, but it now seems that my photo of car 113 was taken at the 1959 Monte.
The Sutherlands were in car No.66 in the 1955 Monte, it would have been a big Riley 2.5 - possibly a Pathfinder. I don’t suppose you have a photo of car 66 from 1955 ??

Cheers, Robin

[RS2000]

My Father was number 124 in 1955 starting from Glasgow in a Ford Consul GRN 177. David

The 1955 list (one of those that's usually quoted as the definitive French source) has No.124 as a Zodiac (John Cuff/Charles Tyrer). Consul could have been a last minute substitution? No.73, also Glasgow starter, is listed as a Consul.

Regarding the Sutherlands, we know from the BMC Comps Manager that 1956 was a Pathfinder(RMH). 55 may have been but could have been an earlier RMB or RMF. 54 seems more likely to have been an RMB or RMF, since only the 5th production Pathfinder was being built around the time of the 54 Monte. 53 would have to have been an RMB or RMF.

Edited by RS2000, 10 January 2010 - 15:42.

[robin2c4]

I've been doing some more digging in the movie archives available on the web.

I found a tiny clip of NS 3535 (Riley 1.5 - Car No. 113 from 1959) on the itn source website, 6 seconds into Clip No.8 on the following link:

http://www.itnsource...nte carlo rally

I also found another fleeting glimpse of what I think was NS 2525 (Riley Pathfinder - Car No. 126 from 1956) on the movietone website, right at the start of this Clip, emerging from behind the titles:

http://www.movietone...sultsPerPage=20

The links above may not work directly, as you are asked to register (free) before you can access material on these sites. The sites are however excellent resources for lots of car-related nostalgia.

Edited by robin2c4, 11 January 2010 - 21:51.

[camerat]

If this picture from the Rallye Monte-Carlo 1956 Standard Movie can help you.

[robin2c4]

Thanks Camerat, I see the photo. Can you clarify exactly which video this is from, and is it available to buy?

Meantime I found an article in the local Sutherland newpaper from 1958 which confirms much of what posters above have said. Link below for information. I'd welcome any further thoughts from anyone. Thanks, Robin

http://www.northern-..._Years_Ago.html

Edited by robin2c4, 12 January 2010 - 19:55.

[cuf3]

Hi Robin

Sorry- No more photos that will help you from my collection>
In 1959 Dad was in a Jag YBP 33 number 95. That was the year he won the Charles Faroux team trophy with 2 other mark 1's, Number 82 OKY 450 and number 111 GTY 7. I wonder if any of them still exist!!

RS 2000- you are correct. My apologies. I have found another picture of the front of the car. It has a "Zephyr" badge on one side of the bonnet and "Zodiac" on the other!!

DavidC

[robin2c4]

Hi David, thanks for checking your photos - appreciate it.

I had a quick look for the registration numbers you quote for the Jags. I suspect the cars are long gone, but Registration GTY 7 is still kicking around, on a Citroen ZX apparently!

https://www.mycarcheck.com/

[RS2000]

GTY7 is quite a well known reg.no. I think it was on a Vauxhall (Velox?) on the Monte at one time.

"Zephyr Zodiac", rather than the abbreviation we use now "Zodiac", was the full/correct model name.

[D-Type]

I don't know my big Fords too well: I think the Mk1 was a Zephyr Zodiac while the MK2 and MK3 were just Zodiac. Was there a MK4 Zodiac to keep the Zephyr company?

[RCH]

The top of the range Mk. 1 big Ford was the Zephyr Zodiac, the others were just Zodiac. In 1955 it would have been a Mk. 1.

Talking of Mk. 1 Zodiacs and the Monte I believe a garage owner local to where we lived at the time (Sparkhill, Birmingham) entered his Mk. 1 Zodiac Farnham estate on a late '50's Monte. I thought even at the age of about 8 that this was an odd vehicle to use.

Anyone got any information on this? His name was Wilf Brampton.

[toonarf]

Hi All

My name is David and I am new to this site. My reason for replying is to both give some information and ask for some. I am the owner and restorer of a 1950 Riley RMB original registration number KLM 1 which competed on the 1951 Monte Carlo Rally. The car driven and owned by F D Cooper and co driven by G L Carte with A Warren as the possible 3rd man set off from Glasgow as car number 235. I have endlessly trawled every Monte photo data base I can find to try to obtain a picture of my car in 1951, I have pictures from other rallies but not the 51 Monte.
The information that I can share is from the data base I have created to cover Riley RMs in competition regarding the Sutherland Boys and their RM years. They started the Monte Carlo in 1953,54,55,56. In 1953 and 54 they were in the Riley RMB reg no NS 2525, this number being transfered to a Riley Pathfinder for 1955 and 56. The entry numbers are as the previous poster posted, the only results I have are 157th in 1954 and 42nd in 1956. There are pictures of both NS 2525s in the James Taylors book on the Riley RM Series.

Thanks David Marsden

Edited by toonarf, 27 July 2010 - 06:53.

[RS2000]

Assume you are aware F.D.Cooper is the Frank Cooper of "Frank Cooper's Marmalade". I'm sure I have some information somewhere and will search. I'm pretty sure there was a photo of a Frank Cooper RM in Monte Carlo on the French Forum Auto this year - and it was an RMF (full width front bumper being the only clue in a very poor photo).

[RS2000]

Looks as if the later car may have been Frank Cooper co-driving Arthur Warren's RM rather than his own. If you have not searched it before, there are some poor RM Monte photos (stills from film?) posted here:
http://www.forum-aut...sujet243862.htm
(somewhere nearer the end of the 190 pages rather than the beginning!)

[bradbury west]

Perhaps Maurice Louche might have some in his vast archives.
Roger Lund

[D-Type]

Has anybody tried contacting the Glasgow Herald or the Glasgow evening paper, whose name escapes me, to request access to their archives?

[toonarf]

Thanks All for your prompt replies.

Has anybody tried contacting the Glasgow Herald or the Glasgow evening paper, whose name escapes me, to request access to their archives?

D Type I did try the Glasgow papers a couple of years ago and didn't get a response, I must try again , I also tried the Llanddridnod Wells paper with a response but no luck.

Looks as if the later car may have been Frank Cooper co-driving Arthur Warren's RM rather than his own. If you have not searched it before, there are some poor RM Monte photos (stills from film?) posted here:
http://www.forum-aut...sujet243862.htm
(somewhere nearer the end of the 190 pages rather than the beginning!)

RS2000 Frank Co drove with Arthur Warren in 1954 in A W's 21/2 SPF 777 start number 205 and finished 36th or 38th . Thanks for the link to the French site ...........................I fear I may be gone some time...............
Finally Frank being a Marmalade magnate, the only reference I have got for that is from the book The legendary RMs, and after my researches most of what is written about KLM I the 2nd is just plane incorrect. I have spoken to our club historian whose father coincidentally knew and played golf with Frank Cooper, KLM being parked outside his house on occasions, he has no knolage of a marmalade connection, Franks occupation given in a report after the 1950 Monte Carlo states he is a councillor from Liphook in Hants.
I wrote to the current owners of Coopers Marmalade who were unable to tell me one way or the other. If you can prove another source of this info I would love to know of it.

Thanks again

David

[aibremner]

I am new so please forgive me if I am going about this wrongly.

My father, JOHN BREMNER, competed in the Monte Carlo in 1953 in a RM Riley. He entered privately as the LLOYD'S MOTOR CLUB, which he started with several Lloyd's colleagues, as well as Le Club des Soixante Douze Heures du Mans. I have his original member's card showing him as the "Fondateur" and the photo album showing some real motorsport personalities of yesteryear.

In 1954, 1956 and 1956, he was part of the BMC works team, always in Rileys. I rememebr picking up a Pathfinder with him from Abingdon when I was a schoolboy.

In recent months, there seems to be a real revival of interest in the Riley rally programme, mainly from sons and grandsons. I have all of his original enamel car badges and his overall numbers but I do not know who had the car plates. Probably his co-drivers' families?

His last entry was the Riley 1.5 OMO 602, a car that went on to gain notable successes with the ladies, mainly Pat Moss.

Anyone out there with any photos please?

I think this is his record:

1953 No 398
1954 No 88
1956 No 142
1958 No 317

Dad also did well in many rallies in the UK and campaigning his Alfa Romeo 2.3 and 1750 Zagato Reg UU 79.

Andrew Bremner

[tonybeegassin]

A first time post here too!

Although not a direct response to the original topic, if anyone would like a good insight into competing the Monte in the early 1950's, then I recommend Mike Couper's 'Rallying to Monte Carlo'. I have not had time to check, but I imagine that a secondhand copy could be found on Amazon or similar. I am driving through France on Friday and Saturday and hope to explore part of one of the routes that he followed, although I hope to miss the unlit truck he hit near Tain l'Hermitage!

[robin2c4]

Andrew,

I now have quite a number of Monte Carlo photographs on loan from the Sutherland family covering the period 1953 to 1959. Some of these feature other cars too, sometimes in the background, and occasionally in a line-up.

Would you know the registration numbers of any of the Rileys which your father competed in? If you let me know, I can check whether it features in any of the photos - sometimes you can see the number painted on the side of the car - sometimes you just get a front view where the registration number is helpful.

Regards,

Robin

[toonarf]

Andrew,

I now have quite a number of Monte Carlo photographs on loan from the Sutherland family covering the period 1953 to 1959. Some of these feature other cars too, sometimes in the background, and occasionally in a line-up.

Would you know the registration numbers of any of the Rileys which your father competed in? If you let me know, I can check whether it features in any of the photos - sometimes you can see the number painted on the side of the car - sometimes you just get a front view where the registration number is helpful.

Regards,

Robin

I would so love to see those photos.
The only reference I have for a Bremner car is KJB 13 a Pathfinder in 1956, I do of course have mentions from the other rallies I believe that they finished 370th in 1953, 37th or 39th in 1954and 69th in 1956. The 58 reference OMO 602 is outside my remit I am afraid
Hope this helps.

David

[toonarf]

A first time post here too!

Although not a direct response to the original topic, if anyone would like a good insight into competing the Monte in the early 1950's, then I recommend Mike Couper's 'Rallying to Monte Carlo'. I have not had time to check, but I imagine that a secondhand copy could be found on Amazon or similar. I am driving through France on Friday and Saturday and hope to explore part of one of the routes that he followed, although I hope to miss the unlit truck he hit near Tain l'Hermitage!

This is an excellent book I have a copy and enjoy reading it from time to time.
Rallies and Trials by S,C,H Davis is another similar read.

David

[aibremner]

Dad's (or rather Grandad's) RM entry in the 1953 Monte Carlo Rally was registered AHC 657. His entry number was 398. I have a great photo of the car and the three team members so if someone can tell me how I get it on the forum I will do so.

I now know the Pathfinder was KJB 13 and the 1.5 in 1958 was OMO 602.

I would welcome any photos, particularly of AHC 657, as I am involved in a project to use an original radiator surround as a cupboard front in my workshop with badges etc.

My email is abremner@btinternet.com

Many thanks.

[toonarf]

This is a trial of adding photographs its the way I do it on other forums.


Arnold Farrer handing to KLM 1 over to Frank Cooper at Abingdon in November 1950.


Cooper reading in the rear of the car just before the Monte Carlo in 1951 also showing the fold down roof lining fitted for the Rally.

[toonarf]

This is the way I post pictures, copied from Passionford

http://passionford.c...-read-here.html

Right, this is just a basic guide for posting pictures in the gallery.........

You need to get them hosted somewhere. If you haven't got your own webspace, you can use this website..... http://www.photobucket.com/ or click on "Uploader" at the top. You will need to register (don't worry, its free).

Upload your pictures and then copy the IMG link of the picture and paste that into your post.

[eskimut]

HI all,
As you are looking at a series of MCR images, can anyone add some information on the all Australian Entry in 1953 in a Holden 48-215 (FX) car # 177 Uk reg QD7721. Drivers Davison,Jone and Gaze. Started from Glasgow

Edited by eskimut, 13 September 2010 - 20:38.

[grahamharper]

With regards to KLM 1 I used to work on this car when it was owned by a Robert Stevens of Cumbernauld, near Glasgow, who later moved back to his home town of York. The car was full of little clips and pouches for shovels, and there had been fittings for compressed air cylindes for re-inflating tyres.

[toonarf]

With regards to KLM 1 I used to work on this car when it was owned by a Robert Stevens of Cumbernauld, near Glasgow, who later moved back to his home town of York. The car was full of little clips and pouches for shovels, and there had been fittings for compressed air cylindes for re-inflating tyres.

This post has completely amazed me, not because you have worked on the car, Robert Stevens seemed to keep every bill for the car and they have come to me with the history, but because you have replied to this post.....................of all the bars in all the land you choose this one.
WOW........... Are you still in business? how long is your warranty on the annual big end bearing remetal? Do you fancy another go at the stainless steel exhaust..........I think its still hanging a bit low!

Some pics of the car as it was when I removed it from its lock up, I guess it wasnt in very good condition back in the 70s, Robert seemed to be desperately trying to find someone who could sprinkle fairy dust over the wooden frame to "fix it".



With old historic cars correct storage is vital. The garage doors opened for the first time in many a a year.



First day light for many years, note the body chrome lines are not bad. The windscreens just pulled out.



Same day 30 very gentle miles later, the bonnet is still closed, the body has collapsed.



My spoof of the handover picture.

Most of the original special fittings are still present about the only thing that has gone awol is the wash basin.

David

[Marticelli]

Slightly OT but the now defunct Royal Scottish Automobile Club in Blythswood Square Glasgow has recently had a makeover and re-emerged as the Blythswood Hotel. They have a bar which is decorated to celebrate the many Monte Carlo rally entrants who started out from this splendid building and there are a series of pictures reproduced on the insides of the large lampshades hanging in the bar (of all places!!), and these may well include one of aforesaid Riley, but perhaps someone who lives nearer than I should be tasked to go and check. No idea where the pics came from...

Marticelli

[grahamharper]

This post has completely amazed me, not because you have worked on the car, Robert Stevens seemed to keep every bill for the car and they have come to me with the history, but because you have replied to this post.....................of all the bars in all the land you choose this one.
WOW........... Are you still in business? how long is your warranty on the annual big end bearing remetal? Do you fancy another go at the stainless steel exhaust..........I think its still hanging a bit low.

I remember the stainless exhaust was quite "boomy". He also had a Daimler SP 250 and a wee pre-war Standard. The car has gone downhill badly since I saw it last. In Cumbernauld I was introduced by Robert to the previous owner. And I think the warranty will have expired on the white metal job.........

[Dutchy]

Slightly OT but the now defunct Royal Scottish Automobile Club in Blythswood Square Glasgow has recently had a makeover and re-emerged as the Blythswood Hotel. They have a bar which is decorated to celebrate the many Monte Carlo rally entrants who started out from this splendid building and there are a series of pictures reproduced on the insides of the large lampshades hanging in the bar (of all places!!), and these may well include one of aforesaid Riley, but perhaps someone who lives nearer than I should be tasked to go and check. No idea where the pics came from...

Marticelli

I've just spent a weekend at the Blytheswood Hotel. The motorsport theme is evident throughout the hotel with pictures taken at Bo'ness, Rest and be Thankful, Charterhall etc. I was told that the yet to be opened library will continue the theme further.
I didn't see any pictures of the Riley but it was rather difficult to check out all the lampshades at breakfast time! I did notice a splendid picture of Raymond Mays and R4D

[toonarf]

I've just spent a weekend at the Blytheswood Hotel. The motorsport theme is evident throughout the hotel with pictures taken at Bo'ness, Rest and be Thankful, Charterhall etc. I was told that the yet to be opened library will continue the theme further.
I didn't see any pictures of the Riley but it was rather difficult to check out all the lampshades at breakfast time! I did notice a splendid picture of Raymond Mays and R4D

Thank you for trying I am up around Glasgow in October do you think Blytheswood Hotel is worth a visit ?

David

[toonarf]

The previous owners name was Cyril Brazier, I think they lived in the same block, the address's are very similar. The owner before Mr Brazier was Billy Ternant whom some people may have heard of.
Do you think you may be able to post any reminisces you may have of working on KLM either in this post or as a PM to me?

David

[Dutchy]

Thank you for trying I am up around Glasgow in October do you think Blytheswood Hotel is worth a visit ?

David

It's a very nice place to stay.
It's quite expensive but they do offer deals sometimes.

If you are visiting just to look at the memorabilia then you might be disappointed as it is scattered throughout the hotel. A lot of it is in the form of blown up scans of old photographs which is interesting as background but not truly historical. I believe there will be more to see when the library is finished.

[robin2c4]

With regards to KLM 1 I used to work on this car when it was owned by a Robert Stevens of Cumbernauld, near Glasgow, who later moved back to his home town of York. The car was full of little clips and pouches for shovels, and there had been fittings for compressed air cylindes for re-inflating tyres.

I came across a couple of photos of KLM 1 - and it's drivers - in the Monte report from the 10th February 1950 copy of The Autocar magazine.

Link to photo below - if this works!

http://i879.photobuc...c4/P1050659.jpg