186 replies to this topic

[ebeneezer2]

Gregor Foitek is widely acknowledged (by racing fans over the age of 30 or so) as the man who ruined Johnny Herbert's career, for apparently causing the big crash in the F3000 race at Brands Hatch in 1988, in which Johnny Herbert broke his legs so badly. However, I've always thought that completely unfair. It seems to be based on the fact that Foitek did, in fairness, do a few badly judged moves during that F3000 season, and the fact that Johnny Herbert was more respected as a driver. It is not, as far as I can tell, based on a fair analysis of the actual accident. If you look at this clip , at about 1m52s, Foitek has obviously got a better exit out of the corner before and is partly alongside Herbert on the straight, and as close to the edge of the track as possible. At that point Herbert seems to change his line abruptly, leaving Foitek no chance to avoid a collision. I'm not accusing Herbert of being reckless here - he might just have lost track of Foitek in his mirrors, and Foitek might well be in Herbert's blind spot at the moment Herbert moves - in any case, I don't see how Foitek can take any blame for it. So, has he spent 20 years carrying the can for an act of which he wasn't guilty?

Edited by ebeneezer2, 07 January 2010 - 11:34.

[Stephen W]

If you look at this clip , at about 1m52s, Foitek has obviously got a better exit out of the corner before and is partly alongside Herbert on the straight, and as close to the edge of the track as possible. At that point Herbert seems to change his line abruptly, leaving Foitek no chance to avoid a collision.

It looks to me that as Herbert & Foitek come into view Herbert is holding his line. At that point it looks like Foitek has tagged the left rear of Herbert's car which causes it to swerve to the left collecting Foitek in the process.

If I had to apportion blame I would say that Foitek caused the accident; whether it was avoidable is another question which this clip cannot answer as we need to see more of what happened after the cars cleared Surtees Bend & came into view of the head-on camera.

[Der Pate]

Herbert certainly has no reason to suddenly go to the left in that way...therefore the cause must be another one...

I also tend to thing, Foitek touched the left rear wheel...but if it were so, I wouldn´t blame Foitek anyway...

Maybe it was a suspension-failure of Herbert´s car...it reminds me a little bit of the Lauda-accident at the Nordschleife in 1976...there the car suddenly also swerfes in one direction...as far as I know it is certain, that the suspension on the left rear wheel broke, which made the wheel direct the car to the right...

[Stephen W]

Herbert certainly has no reason to suddenly go to the left in that way...therefore the cause must be another one...

I also tend to thing, Foitek touched the left rear wheel...but if it were so, I wouldn´t blame Foitek anyway...

Maybe it was a suspension-failure of Herbert´s car...it reminds me a little bit of the Lauda-accident at the Nordschleife in 1976...there the car suddenly also swerfes in one direction...as far as I know it is certain, that the suspension on the left rear wheel broke, which made the wheel direct the car to the right...

If it was the "suspension on the left rear wheel" breaking one would have to ask the question 'what caused it to break?' Also you would have to try to ascertain the answer to the question 'why did the right front wheel not lift off the ground?'

[Risil]

Foitek had already caused the race stoppage that led to Herbert's accident with a blatant chop across Roberto Moreno at Paddock Bend.

As to who caused the accident, the TV images don't show enough -- you'd have to look at the stewards' report I guess. Looks like a racing accident, similar to the pretty scary collision between Michael Andretti and Al Junior at Road America in 1995. Thankfully, it was just about the only place on the whole circuit where you could do that without crashing hard, very much unlike the situation at Pilgrim's Drop.

Edited by Risil, 07 January 2010 - 14:22.

[ebeneezer2]

Yes, Risil, that accident is very similar (I remember seeing it at the time in fact - when he was interviewed afterwards, I remember Unser Jr referring to the fact that Andretti had some problems in his life that may have been affecting him - ironic considering the chapter of his life Unser Jr was just about to enter - still, that's OT), and in that accident, I think you have to blame Andretti, although Unser Jr had time to realise that Andretti probably hadn't seen him and back out of that move. I don't think Foitek did because of how quickly Herbert moved across. I have to disagree by the way Stephen, there seems to be a big enough gap while Foitek is partly alongside Herbert, it's hard to be sure from the pictures but to me it looks like Johnny moving towards Foitek, rather than the other way round.

[ensign14]

Gregor Foitek owes the world an apology for his existence. His disgusting lack of on-track morals should have seen him banned sine die long before he destroyed Herbert's career.

[MCS]

Gregor Foitek owes the world an apology for his existence. His disgusting lack of on-track morals should have seen him banned sine die long before he destroyed Herbert's career.

Seconded. A dreadful individual by all accounts.

[LittleChris]

Hadn't he already put Johnny into the wall at a previous round - Vallelunga ? How Foitek ever got super licence to drive in F1 during 89 & 90 is beyond my comprehension.

[ghinzani]

Hadn't he already put Johnny into the wall at a previous round - Vallelunga ? How Foitek ever got super licence to drive in F1 during 89 & 90 is beyond my comprehension.

dough

[Gabrci]

While I admit I can't remember his on-track antics, so I accept your opinion on that, whenever I was in contact with him he seemed to be a very nice chap.

[ensign14]

dough

That's how he got the drive, he had sufficient results to qualify for a superlicence (including a win, albeit a tainted one).

[Mallory Dan]

He did win an F3000 race fairly and squarely earlier that year against a strong field, and NOT in a Reynard, so he must have had some talent as well as dough. I too felt he was little maligned by the Brit press generally.

[B Squared]

Foitek did some IndyCar race(s)? with Foyt's team, if I'm not mistaken. I have to head out now - so I'll find the details later. Brian

[ensign14]

He did win an F3000 race fairly and squarely earlier that year...

...other than punting Herbert off near the end and having to apologize to him afterwards.

[bigears]

...other than punting Herbert off near the end and having to apologize to him afterwards.

Herbert got knocked out after the Vallelunga accident didn't he?

[ebeneezer2]

I believe so, and he had to miss the next race as well as a result. It wasn't a particularly aggressive block by Foitek, and it was fairly low speed, but somehow ended up causing quite a big accident. It was on youtube a while ago but doesn't seem to be any more. In any case, it was absolutely nothing compared to the moves done by e.g. Webber and Kobayashi in Brazil. I think Foitek's reputation as a maniac, as clearly believed by some people in this thread, is exaggerated and is largely based on the Brands Hatch incident with Herbert, which, from what I can tell, wasn't actually his fault.

[Phil Rainford]

Foitek " New pads I see. Who fitted them "

Mechanic " Ensign "

Foitek " Oh s**t "


PAR

[ebeneezer2]

[ensign14]

In any case, it was absolutely nothing compared to the moves done by e.g. Webber and Kobayashi in Brazil.

Tu quoque is no defence. For the record, both Webber and Kobasher should have been penalized. The fact that neither was shows how the cancer of Sennaism has infected Formula 1.

I think Foitek's reputation as a maniac, as clearly believed by some people in this thread, is exaggerated and is largely based on the Brands Hatch incident with Herbert, which, from what I can tell, wasn't actually his fault.

It takes something special to out-Grouillard Olivier Grouillard, yet Foitek did, by Alliot-ing into him on his Grand Prix debut. And not forgetting his near taking out of Eric Bernard at Monaco as well as the Moreno incident. Not bad for a couple of years of racing.

Althoug frankly nearly killing one driver by turning him sideways into an unyielding barrier at full speed is quite sufficient to generate a bad reputation, methinks.

[bigears]

I believe so, and he had to miss the next race as well as a result. It wasn't a particularly aggressive block by Foitek, and it was fairly low speed, but somehow ended up causing quite a big accident. It was on youtube a while ago but doesn't seem to be any more.

I put it up on YouTube but I think they removed it. I will have a go uploading it again this weekend.

[ebeneezer2]

Tu quoque is no defence. For the record, both Webber and Kobasher should have been penalized. The fact that neither was shows how the cancer of Sennaism has infected Formula 1.


It takes something special to out-Grouillard Olivier Grouillard, yet Foitek did, by Alliot-ing into him on his Grand Prix debut. And not forgetting his near taking out of Eric Bernard at Monaco as well as the Moreno incident. Not bad for a couple of years of racing.

Althoug frankly nearly killing one driver by turning him sideways into an unyielding barrier at full speed is quite sufficient to generate a bad reputation, methinks.

You really don't like this guy do you? I am aware of the Grouillard and Bernard collisions, but I don't think either of them was actually shown on TV so I don't see how you're so sure he's to blame for both. The Moreno incident I'll give you (I think he also caused a first corner shunt at Enna), the Vallelunga one I haven't seen for quite a while, I just remember thinking when I did see it that it wasn't really that bad. I assume your last comment is a reference to the Herbert/Brands Hatch incident, I'm quite sure Foitek did not 'turn him sideways', anyway I've already given my thoughts on that one earlier on in the thread.

[ebeneezer2]

I put it up on YouTube but I think they removed it. I will have a go uploading it again this weekend.

Weird, the ones from from 1986 and 1987 are still there. I assume bigears=lemanslegend then?

[ensign14]

You really don't like this guy do you? I am aware of the Grouillard and Bernard collisions, but I don't think either of them was actually shown on TV so I don't see how you're so sure he's to blame for both.

The Grouillard one I seem to remember being shown in a replay, he plain didn't see him and moved over onto him, both ended up in the barrier. The Bernard one I am going by the comments in the media afterwards about the press waiting for the inevitable accident, Roebuck in particular was scathing about his weaving.

Foitek was like de Cesaris. Fast - his debut in the Brabham saw him possibly on course for points before his crash with Grouillard (ironically when lapping him) - but with somewhat defective cranial capacity, he seemed to assume if he could not see other cars, they weren't there.

[BarryJohnson]

Absolutely not.Foitek was a dangerous combination of speed and cluelessness.

By the time he got to Brands Hatch in 1988 he had already driven Herbert off the track in Vallelunga,

Moreno and half the field in Enna.At Brands he had Moreno off again in the first part of the race and

the restart ended with his collision with Herbert.How many accidents does one bloke have to be involved in before

it dawns on him that he is in over his head?


His F1 career was the same.By the time he finally managed to qualify in 1990 at Phoenix he succeded in

colliding with Olivier Grouillard after 40 laps.Then when it looked like he might score a point at Monaco and Eric Bernard had the

temerity to try and pass him because he had left a gap he had him off as well.


He is much better off physically and financially flogging posh sports cars at his Dad's garage in Zurich.

Edited by BarryJohnson, 09 January 2010 - 09:20.

[Thundersports]

Ok my two bob on the Brands "incident" over the years I have spoken to friends/acquainces (officals/team managers) about the incident and it has left me with no doubt that Foitek locked his front wheel in to the rear of Herberts causing the sudden "jink" to the right.

[BarryJohnson]

As an aside I was actually at Brands Hatch that day and well remember walking

along the tarmac road behind the stands on the start/finish line following Johnny Herbert

and Martin Donnelly (the eventual race winner) who were in their race suits chatting to one another.

It was quite noticeable how one (and I cannot remember which one) was bouncing along

on the balls of his feet with a real spring in his step.


It struck me as funny at the time but I am well aware that such is the cruelty of motorsport I am

the only one who could now do that walk without a limp.

[bigears]

Weird, the ones from from 1986 and 1987 are still there. I assume bigears=lemanslegend then?

SOrry for the OTT comments everyone, yes 'lemanslegend' is my second Internet name and I have uploaded those F3000 videos. YouTube asked me to remove some of the F3000 videos so I obliged that.

[ebeneezer2]

Ok my two bob on the Brands "incident" over the years I have spoken to friends/acquainces (officals/team managers) about the incident and it has left me with no doubt that Foitek locked his front wheel in to the rear of Herberts causing the sudden "jink" to the right.

Hmm...not trying to doubt the authority of those who were actually involved in the F3000 scene at the time, but would team managers actually have any more to go on than just the tv footage that we've seen? I'm not sure on what the status of F3000 telemetry was in that era. As for officials, it would have required being able to notice a very small detail at high speed, and that judgement not to be affected by the shocking events that unfolded afterwards. I can't help but wonder if those judgements are affected by the reputations and popularity of the two drivers at that point. Besides, why on earth would Foitek have done such a thing? He did do a few aggressive moves to defend his position that season, but that's a world away from steering into a car halfway down a straight, which, besides being astoundingly dangerous both for himself and the other car, wouldn't have helped him overtake Johnny, which was what he ws focussed on at that point. There was a TV program about Johnny Herbert and the accident a few years ago, I remember Herbert saying something along the lines of 'he tried to overtake me, when there was only space for about half a car', which makes me think that Johnny had assumed Foitek wasn't on that side, hence hadn't seen him and moved over.

[MCS]

Hmm...not trying to doubt the authority of those who were actually involved in the F3000 scene at the time, but would team managers actually have any more to go on than just the tv footage that we've seen? I'm not sure on what the status of F3000 telemetry was in that era. As for officials, it would have required being able to notice a very small detail at high speed, and that judgement not to be affected by the shocking events that unfolded afterwards. I can't help but wonder if those judgements are affected by the reputations and popularity of the two drivers at that point. Besides, why on earth would Foitek have done such a thing? He did do a few aggressive moves to defend his position that season, but that's a world away from steering into a car halfway down a straight, which, besides being astoundingly dangerous both for himself and the other car, wouldn't have helped him overtake Johnny, which was what he ws focussed on at that point. There was a TV program about Johnny Herbert and the accident a few years ago, I remember Herbert saying something along the lines of 'he tried to overtake me, when there was only space for about half a car', which makes me think that Johnny had assumed Foitek wasn't on that side, hence hadn't seen him and moved over.

Your initial question was "Does the motor racing world owe Gregor Foitek an apology?"

The consensus would seem to be a clear "no" - I'm fed up with reading this now.

[Thundersports]

The team managers would have had first hand witnesses ie their drivers behind the initial contact.

Edited by Thundersport, 09 January 2010 - 12:46.

[rallen]

Very interesting thread guys, Gregor Foitek was a bit before my time, as was Oliver Grouillard, could some one fill me in on exactly what they were like as drivers? where they really that bad? examples?

Speaking of bad driving, here is some rare footage of the famous 1989 start crash at Paul Ricard with Gugelmin's airborn Leyton House! It is on board with Boutsen through the accident and is an excellent drivers eye view of the incident (It must be scary seeing a car barrel role over you!) watch though for the incompetance of the Ligier driver at around the 0:15 mark! I beleive it is Grouillard?
Paul Ricard start crash

[Thundersports]

Lets say Foitek/Grouillard had reputations as very hard drivers who would cross the line from time to time. These chaps would rather put you in the barriers than be overtaken even if it mean't a trip to the kitty litter themselves.

[rallen]

Lets say Foitek/Grouillard had reputations as very hard drivers who would cross the line from time to time. These chaps would rather put you in the barriers than be overtaken even if it mean't a trip to the kitty litter themselves.

Thanks for the reply, so were they mainly 'dirty' (My word not anyone else's!) drivers as opposed to incompetent?

[ensign14]

Your initial question was "Does the motor racing world owe Gregor Foitek an apology?"

The consensus would seem to be a clear "no" - I'm fed up with reading this now.

I'm not, these things need to be challenged.

Foitek did drive for Foyt - Economaki suggesting that the early pioneer Foyts going to the States in the 18th or whenever century might have been Foiteks before Anglicizing their names, I would be intrigued to know whether that is him just playing around or whether there might be something in that, Foyt is not a common English name after all - but after a couple of races he retired from motor sport. I have seen two reasons given; firstly, the concrete walls of Indy spooked him before he even got there; secondly, he had just become engaged and the future Frau F asked him to give up.

Grouillard was known as a bit of a mobile chicane - lapping him was dancing on lilypads on piranha-filled ponds. Perhaps he was mentored a bit too well by Arnoux. Also shares the record for least points per Grand Prix. Like Foitek though Grouillard had pace, he had a decent enough F3k record, but was stuck in rubbish for much of his F1 career. Albeit when he had a half-decent Tyrrell he did eff all with it. Famously ignored blue flags following a jump start at Mangy Course in 1992 for about a quarter of an hour, before the stewards finally called him in for a stop & go for the jump, which ultimately cost Herbert (!) a 5th place finish for Lotus. By lucky hap, the beneficiary of this French stewarding and driving was Erik Comas' Ligier.

[Thundersports]

Thanks for the reply, so were they mainly 'dirty' (My word not anyone else's!) drivers as opposed to incompetent?

Yes

[Risil]

By lucky hap, the beneficiary of this French stewarding and driving was Erik Comas' Ligier.

Erik Comas would likely have been at the Winfield driving school at Magny-Cours? Them Neversians looks after their own.

So Foitek gave Herbert a bit of the ol' bump-and-run? IIRC that was a favoured tactic of the great Giuseppe Farina. Actually this quote from the Grand Prix Encyclopaedia

Born into the famous Farina coach building family, he grew up wealthy and arrogant. He gained a doctorate in political science and after considering a military career decided to go racing in 1932.

He proved himself to be extraordinarily brave but was also prone to accidents which meant that he was a regular visitor to hospitals throughout his career. The fact that he survived so many made him appear to be indestructible, in an era when drivers were often killed in accidents.

sounds quite similar to the cases of Messrs. Foitek and De Cesaris. Don't know much about Grouillard, beyond his reputation.

[Stephen W]

Your initial question was "Does the motor racing world owe Gregor Foitek an apology?"

The consensus would seem to be a clear "no" - I'm fed up with reading this now.

This will be my last post as I am getting rather bored by the pantomine banter!

Lets say Foitek/Grouillard had reputations as very hard drivers who would cross the line from time to time. These chaps would rather put you in the barriers than be overtaken even if it mean't a trip to the kitty litter themselves.

Foitek wasn't a hard driver he was a muppet. He wouldn't have lasted more than one race up against some fo the real hardmen!

[ebeneezer2]

Your initial question was "Does the motor racing world owe Gregor Foitek an apology?"

The consensus would seem to be a clear "no" - I'm fed up with reading this now.

Well, no one's forcing you to read it.

The team managers would have had first hand witnesses ie their drivers behind the initial contact.

Ah yes, that is a good point. That would be Blundell and Grouillard then, from memory. It would have been interesting to hear what Foitek himself had to say about it, alas I've never heard him quoted on it.

[Michael Ferner]

It would have been interesting to hear what Foitek himself had to say about it, alas I've never heard him quoted on it.

Well, it's obvious no one wanted his quote for fear of having some preconceived notions torn apart. This thread is a shining example of the poor state of TNF discussions these days...

[ensign14]

Preconceived notions? Can you find anyone with the preconceived notion that Foitek was a dirty driver BEFORE having seen him cause accidents? You don't think that he had a reputation for being a dirty driver BECAUSE of the accidents he caused? Is it a preconceived notion to consider that Clark was the greatest?

And poor state of discussion? We have someone questioning Foitek's reputation. We have a number of examples explaining why Foitek had a bad reputation based on recollections of the participants and video evidence. Seems to me that for a bit-part player that's about the best we are going to get. Maybe it is significant that nobody from one of Switzerland has come up with sources from closer to Foitek's birthplace to deal with that reputation. Maybe not.

As for interviewing him about the Herbert incident, Foitek was concussed in it. Perhaps he remembered nothing about it.

[bschenker]

One off the problems is my english is not good enough to say somethings clear about Gregor Foitek, in difference to his father Karl, i never seen personaly.

Lucks like hi was talented, but racing not his bigest finishing line, this was more in his fathers mind and pressure, to bring his son on the place, he want getting himself.

.

[coupekarter]

From the watching the video posted and being unbiased in knowing little of F3000 at that time, I would say that Foitek was blameless in both incidents. In the Moreno collision he didn't look to me to do anything wrong, he just didn't turn in when Moreno was hoping he would. Entirely Morenos fault! The Herbert incident reminded me of the Clark/Von Trips crash except that it happened before the braking zone, not during. Herbert tried to get back on the line for the next corner without realising that Foitek was there, and it happened too quick for Foitek to be able to do anything about it. A racing incident, nobodies fault really.

[Tony Matthews]

....... But you've only just joined......

For the second time, john t, you can't take avatatars and dates at face value all the time.

[john t]

For the second time, john t, you can't take avatatars and dates at face value all the time.

Point taken!

[longhorn]

I've always believed, from what I've seen and read that Foitek was responsible for Herbert's accident. But I could have been wrong so I've spent some time examining the Brands Youtube video in slow motion.

In the Moreno incident Foitek jinks left into Moreno before taking his apex into Paddock. It wasn't that he didn't allow Moreno space to position for the apex, he actually nudged him into the tyre wall.

In the Herbert incident, I thought initially that he was to the left of Herbert but I'm sure that he is actually behind and a little to the right. If it wasn't a suspension breakage, what else would have caused Herbert to spear left, other than a nudge to the right hand side rear?

[Peter Morley]

My recollection from the time was that Foitek was either involved with or very close to a lot of accidents and near-misses.
He was clearly out of his depth and was the cause of many incidents either directly or indirectly.
There were so many incidents that there was a very clear message - just looking at a couple of those incidents is unfair on all the drivers who's races he ruined.

Edited by Peter Morley, 11 January 2010 - 11:19.

[longhorn]

My recollection from the time was that Foitek was either involved with or very close to a lot of accidents and near-misses.
He was clearly out of his depth and was the cause of many incidents either directly or indirectly.
There were so many incidents that there was a very clear message - just looking at a couple of those incidents is unfair on all the drivers who's races he ruined.

I have always wondered what Herbert might have achieved in F1 with two working feet, particularly the left one for the brake, after the cars moved to two pedal operation. He was certainly pretty special in the other junior formulae.

[ebeneezer2]

He did look good in that F3000 season, having said that, when Donnelly joined the same team, his results were every bit as good as Johnny's had been (in fact he was right on Herbert's tail until the restart at Brands). We didn't really ever find out how good Donnelly was of course, but my guess, given he was fairly evenly matched with Derek Warwick during the 1990 season, is that he was more of a Rubens/DC/Fisi level than a Senna/Schumacher talent - so realistically, maybe that's what Herbert would have been (you might argue that's how good Herbert actually was, but given that he was generally slower than Frentzen, Barrichello and Irvine when he was teammates to them, I'd suggest his level was a bit lower than that)

[Peter Morley]

I have always wondered what Herbert might have achieved in F1 with two working feet, particularly the left one for the brake, after the cars moved to two pedal operation. He was certainly pretty special in the other junior formulae.

Very true he'd stood out all the way from the F.Ford festival until getting tangled up with Mr Foitek (IIRC the Brands accident was their second coming together that season?).
Even his F1 debut was better than most driver's (irrespective of the difficulty walking) and his testing performance was enough for Schumacher to make sure there was no two-way sharing of data.

I must admit a personal conflict of interests here, around the time of the accident I was telling a Camel representive that Herbert was the next driver they should promote to F1, but I think they'd worked that out for themselves anyway!