Jump to content


Photo

The yellow stripe on the Lotus 25...


  • Please log in to reply
103 replies to this topic

#1 paulhooft

paulhooft
  • Member

  • 873 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 15 January 2010 - 21:48

When was the yellow striped 1963 Lotus 25 first entered in a Grand Prix?
Was it because of the 1963 Indianapolis 500.? and why?
Had Trevor Taylor, anything to do with it?
Questions...

Paul Hooft

Edited by paulhooft, 15 January 2010 - 21:49.


Advertisement

#2 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,600 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 15 January 2010 - 21:52

1963 British GP - contrasting yellow and green had been a Team Lotus livery - yellow wheels/green body panels - from very early in the sports car programme.

DCN

#3 Rob G

Rob G
  • Member

  • 11,268 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 January 2010 - 00:32

BRM had just added the orange to the nose of their cars, and Brabham's green and gold scheme hadn't been around very long either.

#4 eldougo

eldougo
  • Member

  • 8,052 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 16 January 2010 - 05:21

When was the yellow striped 1963 Lotus 25 first entered in a Grand Prix?....... South Africa GP (from what pics i can find)
Was it because of the 1963 Indianapolis 500.? and why?
Had Trevor Taylor, anything to do with it?
Questions...

Paul Hooft




#5 eldougo

eldougo
  • Member

  • 8,052 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 16 January 2010 - 05:28

In correct ill change that to German Gp .1963

#6 paulhooft

paulhooft
  • Member

  • 873 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 16 January 2010 - 08:53

It is well known that green is an "Unlucky" colour at Indy,
The 1963 Lotus 29 "powered by Ford" was entered at INDY as Green with a Yellow stripe.
(or White with Blue strip for Dan Gurney)
May be they copied that when they came back to Grand Prix racing?


#7 B Squared

B Squared
  • Member

  • 5,642 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 16 January 2010 - 10:22

In correct ill change that to German Gp .1963


I'm with Doug on this, British GP - in Automobile Year #11 there is a photo on page 183 showing the completion of the first lap of the race on July 20, 1963. Jim is in 4th place and one can clearly see the yellow stripe in question.

On page 188 of the same AY #11, there is a photo of the start of the German GP where the yellow stripe is again clearly seen on Jim's pole winning Lotus - the race date was August 4, 1963.

As far as the Indy car being striped, it was obviously done before the Formula One car. I can't place where I read this, but it sticks in the back of my mind that the stripe, at first thought to be rather garish by Chapman, "grew on him" and eventually had it applied to the Lotus 25. This last statement may not be 100% correct, so please clarify as needed. B²

Edited by B Squared, 16 January 2010 - 10:23.


#8 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 11,350 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 16 January 2010 - 11:13

British Grand Prix 1963 - DEFINITELY.

I have always thought that the British teams decided to use a different colour somewhere on their green cars simply for the sake of a bit of variation. Cooper had had white stripes since 1959.


#9 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,600 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 16 January 2010 - 11:36

British Grand Prix 1963 - DEFINITELY.


Posted Image

QED - and how's that for fine judgement...

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 16 January 2010 - 11:37.


#10 B Squared

B Squared
  • Member

  • 5,642 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 16 January 2010 - 11:41

Doug - You are "on a roll" with great photographs this morning - Thanks :up: Brian

#11 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,868 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 16 January 2010 - 12:40

In his report of the British Grand Prix, Denis Jenkinson remarked on the yellow stripe in second practice. Does anybody know whether Clark's car had the stripe for first practice? They were morning and afternoon of the same day, so it's unlikely that any painting was done but they must have had nose cone/cockpit tops with slotted and unslotted screens. Clark raced the slotted windscreen for the first time in the Dutch GP but not in the later French GP.

#12 Macca

Macca
  • Member

  • 3,534 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 16 January 2010 - 17:34

DSJ mentions that Taylor had an aero-screen too, but his bodywork didn't have a yellow stripe and the numbers were white, not black-on-white discs like Clark's.

http://www.eajonesgu...tart_colour.jpg

Given ACBC's attention to presentation, I wonder why the differences.............and why nobody added the top of the side roundel to Clark's car.

Paul M

#13 Rob G

Rob G
  • Member

  • 11,268 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 January 2010 - 19:24

DSJ mentions that Taylor had an aero-screen too, but his bodywork didn't have a yellow stripe and the numbers were white, not black-on-white discs like Clark's.

http://www.eajonesgu...tart_colour.jpg

Given ACBC's attention to presentation, I wonder why the differences.............and why nobody added the top of the side roundel to Clark's car.

Paul M

Fascinating photo. Team Lotus almost always used the white discs through the sixties, regardless of the yellow stripe. I wonder why they went with plain white numbers on Taylor's car.

#14 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 11,350 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 16 January 2010 - 20:01

Smashing picture but strange how dark the orange looks on Ginther's B.R.M.

#15 DOHC

DOHC
  • Member

  • 12,404 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 16 January 2010 - 20:23

Posted Image

QED - and how's that for fine judgement...

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN


Clark, inching his way forward...  ;)


#16 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,868 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 17 January 2010 - 09:54

At Solitude a week after Silverstone, Trevor Taylor's race car had a yellow stripe and a slotted windscreen. I believe this was R3, not R2 that he raced at Silverstone. Team Lotus entered a third car at Solitude for Peter Arundell. DSJ described his practice car as "the old Lotus 25 with Weber carburetter engine and ZF gearbox" (R3, I believe). Photographs in Motor Sport and Autosport show this to have normal windscreen and no stripe. Taylor practiced R2 with Colotti gearbox which gave problems and they swapped cars for the race. DSJ says that Arundell's race car had a slotted windscreen and a yellow stripe, but photographs in Autosport and L'Automobile Historique show it to have a slotted windscreen but no stripe, the same as Taylor's at Silverstone. In the German Grand Prix a week after Solitude, Trevor Taylor was back in R2 but with a ZF gearbox fitted between practice and the race. Jim Clark, as everybody knows, drove R4 throughout.

At Solitude the three cars all had different types of drive shaft. Clark's failed on the line, and they were changed during the race, giving rise to one of the all-time great drives and a lap record broken by 6.5 seconds. I find it amazing that a racing team could be such a shambles and expect to compete at the top level, let alone win any races.

#17 Phil Rainford

Phil Rainford
  • Member

  • 5,302 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 17 January 2010 - 10:35

A couple of shots from last year's Gold Cup Meeting.....


Posted Image


Posted Image


PAR

Edited by Phil Rainford, 17 January 2010 - 15:25.


#18 Tmeranda

Tmeranda
  • Member

  • 605 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 17 January 2010 - 12:03

A couple of shots from last last year's Gold Cup Meeting.....


Posted Image


Posted Image


PAR


Nice shots, but it just doesn"t look right with a full face helmet does it?

#19 Phil Rainford

Phil Rainford
  • Member

  • 5,302 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 17 January 2010 - 12:47

Nice shots, but it just doesn"t look right with a full face helmet does it?


Posted Image


Some still keep the faith :)


PAR


Advertisement

#20 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,313 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:00

This Saturday I'll be blogging about the Lotus 25 I have found chassis numbers for both featured cars and a ton of information on them but I too have found mention on that most unreliable of resources of Trevor Taylor having something to do with the yellow stripe that appears on Team Lotus cars !

From previous personal observation and previous posts I now have it that green was the preferred colour of Team Lotus cars, with yellow wobbly web wheels when they came out.

At Indy in 1963 Clark's #92 Lotus 29 was the first Team Lotus car to appear with a yellow stripe.

The yellow stripe was then initially only to Clark's #4 Lotus 25 at the 1963 British GP.

Can I safely assume that Trevor Taylor having anything to do with the yellow stripe on Team Lotus cars is a complete myth or did Trevor perhaps have such a stripe painted on his FJ car prior to Indy 1963 ?

#21 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 11,350 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 11 January 2012 - 07:23

A yellow stripe on Trevor's F.J. car? I'd say 'no' to that one, but with no more than memory to support the reply.

#22 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:08

Definitely not

And in any case TT's last FJ year was 1961 - if the idea was going to 'catch on' it would have done so long before May 1963

#23 Vicuna

Vicuna
  • Member

  • 1,606 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:49

wasn;t it a well known fact that ACBC's fav colour was yelow?

Surely any TT influence was purely a coincidence

#24 barrykm

barrykm
  • Member

  • 597 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:11

...I had my mum knit me a green jersey with yellow stripes on the sleeves because of this... :blush:

#25 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,313 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:22

Thanks Barry, David and Vicuna so another myth completely dispelled :up:

barrykm many years ago my Mum undertook to knit me a jersey to match the seats of one of these, the car is long gone and the jersey has yet to be finished :blush: :wave:

#26 JtP1

JtP1
  • Member

  • 753 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:48

At Solitude the three cars all had different types of drive shaft. Clark's failed on the line, and they were changed during the race, giving rise to one of the all-time great drives and a lap record broken by 6.5 seconds. I find it amazing that a racing team could be such a shambles and expect to compete at the top level, let alone win any races.


Iirc, well it was a while ago. Clark's car had expiramental fabricated spiders for the donuts and when he dropped the clutch, they twisted. Obviously the drive shaft ere fine the rest of the time, otherise they would have failed in practice. Considering that the Lotus mechanics must have replaced the shaft assemblies in under an hour, they can't have been that much of a shamble.


#27 Macca

Macca
  • Member

  • 3,534 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:45

When the 25 first appeared at Zandvoort in 1962 it had black wheels with polished rims - perhaps they hadn't had time to spray them. (Taylor's 24 had yellow wheels there)

At Aintree in 1962 Clark's 25 had yellow fronts and black rears.

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 11 January 2012 - 12:48.


#28 elansprint72

elansprint72
  • Member

  • 3,849 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 11 January 2012 - 23:26

If we still had a Blood Pressure thread I would ask what a "strpe" is. :rolleyes:

#29 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:36

Slightly Tapered Reproduction Pigmented Extension

#30 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 11,350 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:49

So the Lotus yellow addition wasn't a stripe then? No taper involved. :)

#31 David Lawson

David Lawson
  • Member

  • 961 posts
  • Joined: November 03

Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:27

Given ACBC's attention to presentation, I wonder why the differences.............and why nobody added the top of the side roundel to Clark's car.


Talking from memory didn't Clark run with white roundels on the engine cover but white numbers on the side of the monocoque at the 1962 British Grand Prix?

I suppose there are occasions when there just wasn't time for worrying too much about presentation? Having said that the mad scramble the team had the night before the 1967 Dutch Grand Prix replacing all the wheel bearings without the proper tools didn't prevent them having two superbly turned out cars for that race, did the 49 ever look better than on its debut?

Another question about yellow detailing at Team Lotus, when did the mechanics first have yellow collars on their green overalls - I think it was 1967.

David

#32 Macca

Macca
  • Member

  • 3,534 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:34

Subtly Tinted Roughly Parallel Embellishment.

Paul M

#33 charles r

charles r
  • Member

  • 8,356 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:12

Slightly o/t but are those wire wheels on the Ferrari?

#34 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,313 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 12 January 2012 - 13:49

Slightly o/t but are those wire wheels on the Ferrari?


I noticed them, but was not keen to go off topic, which begs the question when was the last time wire wheels were used in a championship and by whom ?

#35 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 21,863 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 12 January 2012 - 14:03

We batted this question around a few years ago, and the consensus was that in F1 it was the Ferrari 156:

The Last Night Of The Prams

#36 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 21,863 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 12 January 2012 - 14:27

In Ferrari by Tanner & Nye there's a photo of Surtees in the 1963 British GP, and his Ferrari is quite clearly on alloys, not wire wheels. The book says that Ferrari used alloy wheels for the first time at the 1963 International Trophy. This would seem to indicate that they used wires for the last time in F1 in the 1962 Italian GP (their last race of that year).

#37 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,313 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 12 January 2012 - 15:15

Thanks for the info and link Tim :up:

#38 Sisyphus

Sisyphus
  • Member

  • 219 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 13 January 2012 - 20:49

The classic racing car for me will always be Jim Clark's Lotus 25 with yellow wobbley webs, center stript, and air deflector windscreen. What a fantastic look!

Since it seems the first appearance of the stripe was at Indy '63, perhaps Colin found inspiration in a local corn field?

http://www.deere.com...reen_fever.page?


#39 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,313 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 January 2012 - 07:40

The classic racing car for me will always be Jim Clark's Lotus 25 with yellow wobbley webs, center stript, and air deflector windscreen. What a fantastic look!

Since it seems the first appearance of the stripe was at Indy '63, perhaps Colin found inspiration in a local corn field?

http://www.deere.com...reen_fever.page?


Several of my less well informed friends from west side of the pond asked about the John Deere Sponsorship when I posted a blog on the Lotus 22 FJ car last month :lol:

Thanks again for everyone's help dispelling the Trevor Taylor Yellow 'Strpe' myth :up:

Advertisement

#40 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,868 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:23

You say that Trevor Taylor crashed R5 at the Belgian Grand Prix during the race. Didn't this happen during practice? I thought that he raced R3, retiring with engine problems of some sort.

#41 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,313 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 January 2012 - 09:49

You say that Trevor Taylor crashed R5 at the Belgian Grand Prix during the race. Didn't this happen during practice? I thought that he raced R3, retiring with engine problems of some sort.


I'll gladly bow to your superior knowledge and Lotus library Roger, I was unaware he had been involved in two incidents during the Belgian GP ? :blush:

Wiki (my best resource) on the race suggests Trevor retired after an accident from the race but does not say which chassis he was driving.




#42 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,868 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 14 January 2012 - 10:31

I'll gladly bow to your superior knowledge and Lotus library Roger, I was unaware he had been involved in two incidents during the Belgian GP ? :blush:

Wiki (my best resource) on the race suggests Trevor retired after an accident from the race but does not say which chassis he was driving.

Not two incidents. A crash in practice and a mechanical failure in the race. Which Wiki says that he crashed in the race?

#43 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,313 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 January 2012 - 10:42

Sorry Roger getting my '63 Belgian GP mixed up with '62 this morning, Wiki says Trevor had an accident on lap 25 in 1962, and 'physical' is listed as the reason for his retirement on lap 5 of the 1963 Belgian GP.

#44 cedricselzer

cedricselzer
  • Member

  • 93 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 14 January 2012 - 14:21

DSJ mentions that Taylor had an aero-screen too, but his bodywork didn't have a yellow stripe and the numbers were white, not black-on-white discs like Clark's.

http://www.eajonesgu...tart_colour.jpg

Given ACBC's attention to presentation, I wonder why the differences.............and why nobody added the top of the side roundel to Clark's car.

Paul M

Great picture. Has anyone picked up that "Team Lotus" was not painted on the bodywork of JC's car? The reason that there was not a completed circle on fibre glass body and no "Team Lotus" on the side is that they both painted by the sign writer. I am sure this was a new nose cone and there was not enough time to complete this work prior to the race.

#45 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,868 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 14 January 2012 - 14:59

Sorry Roger getting my '63 Belgian GP mixed up with '62 this morning, Wiki says Trevor had an accident on lap 25 in 1962, and 'physical' is listed as the reason for his retirement on lap 5 of the 1963 Belgian GP.

I can't remember having seen "physical" as a reason for retirement before. The Wikepedia page quotes John Thompson as a source but he says "driver unfit". The contemporary Autosport report and the Black Book both say low oil pressure. DSJ's report says that Taylor reared with "low oil pressure" (his quotes), and the results list the reason for retirement as "-- !! --".

It wouldn't be surprising if Trevor Taylor was unfit after his practice accident.

#46 Rob G

Rob G
  • Member

  • 11,268 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 14 January 2012 - 15:19

I can't remember having seen "physical" as a reason for retirement before. The Wikepedia page quotes John Thompson as a source but he says "driver unfit". The contemporary Autosport report and the Black Book both say low oil pressure. DSJ's report says that Taylor reared with "low oil pressure" (his quotes), and the results list the reason for retirement as "-- !! --".

It wouldn't be surprising if Trevor Taylor was unfit after his practice accident.

The 1963 Automobile Year has his reason for retirement as "---" and doesn't mention him in the race report at all.

In the book "Grand Prix!" Mike Lang lists it as oil pressure in the results. He also mentioned that Taylor was able to carry on in the spare car after his practice accident, and although he doesn't explicitly say that he drove the spare car during that session, he does continue discussing the practice session, which to me implies that he did.

#47 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,313 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 January 2012 - 15:24

I had not noticed the absence of the 'Team Lotus' sign writing Cedric, I wonder how many model makers have ?

Roger I've added a post script to the blog thanks for spotting and letting me know about this error :up:

Meanwhile I was looking at the results page of the 1963 French GP on the 'Official' Formula 1™ website and found the accompanying photo rather interesting, the number on the side of Jim's car looks right but what about the stripe ?

Anyone have any idea's where or even when that photo might have been taken ?

#48 David Lawson

David Lawson
  • Member

  • 961 posts
  • Joined: November 03

Posted 14 January 2012 - 15:29

I would guess that photo was taken at Zandvoort in 1964

David

#49 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,868 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 14 January 2012 - 15:34

Autocourse says: "His knee and thigh were very swollen and after a few laps he was obliged to retire. Subsequent examination showed that he had severed a thigh muscle." He missed Le Mans the following week (according to Autocourse but I don't know what he would have driven) but was back for the Dutch GrandPrix.

#50 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,868 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 14 January 2012 - 15:38

I had not noticed the absence of the 'Team Lotus' sign writing Cedric, I wonder how many model makers have ?

Roger I've added a post script to the blog thanks for spotting and letting me know about this error :up:

Meanwhile I was looking at the results page of the 1963 French GP on the 'Official' Formula 1™ website and found the accompanying photo rather interesting, the number on the side of Jim's car looks right but what about the stripe ?

Anyone have any idea's where or even when that photo might have been taken ?

Certainly not 1963. I think David Lawson is correct.