50 replies to this topic

[jeze]

I just wonder whether it is allowed to use a two-pedal layout in any tin-top series? I can imagine that DTM would accept such a feature, but do others series these days?

And how about GT cars? I realise that LMP's normally have two pedals and a hand clutch, but is that allowed in those too?

Edited by jeze, 20 January 2010 - 19:47.

[jcbc3]

You can left foot brake in any car. Most Finnish rally drivers start at age 5 doing it.;)

wikipedia

[edit]
My post is a direct response to your thread title, not your post about two pedal layout.
[/edit]

Edited by jcbc3, 20 January 2010 - 19:57.

[jeze]

You can left foot brake in any car. Most Finnish rally drivers start at age 5 doing it.;)

wikipedia

[edit]
My post is a direct response to your thread title, not your post about two pedal layout.
[/edit]

OK, I just wonder whether there are only two pedals in tin-top series or if there is a compulsory clutch pedal in the regulations?

[Wuzak]

Some V8Supercar drivers left foot brake. The cars still have the three pedals, but the left foot brakers mostly ignore the clutch.

Greg Murphy is probably the most notable left foot braker, and I believe Fabian Coulthard is too.

Greg Murphy on-board footage

Edited by Wuzak, 20 January 2010 - 21:27.

[SteveCanyon]

It's a bit hard to see but I'm doing it here ->



AE-101 FWD Corolla in the Malaysian 12 Hour race. Tried a lot of things to reduce the understeer, but with my not owning the car and not being able to do everything I wanted it still scrubbed the fronts pretty well and in some corners the only way to get the front tucked-in was the do some tappy-tappy with the left foot on the brake when running full throttle.

[gordmac]

Not a tin top but left foot braking
http://www.scottish-...video_test.html

[OfficeLinebacker]

Some V8Supercar drivers left foot brake. The cars still have the three pedals, but the left foot brakers mostly ignore the clutch.

Greg Murphy is probably the most notable left foot braker, and I believe Fabian Coulthard is too.

Greg Murphy on-board footage

Juan Pablo Montoya does it on the road courses per foot cam this year or last year. Just like in Aussie V8, he ignores the clutch. Rev matching FTW!

[McGuire]

I would be surprised if there are any pure right-foot brakers left in NASCAR. Especially now with the current breed of clutchless gearboxes. Oval racing naturally lends itself to left-foot braking and the advantages on road courses are obvious. Many Cup drivers use both feet for braking. Anyone else remember Ricky Rudd's foot cam? That was fun to watch.

[SteveCanyon]

Juan Pablo Montoya does it on the road courses per foot cam this year or last year. Just like in Aussie V8, he ignores the clutch. Rev matching FTW!

FWIW the gearboxes in the Aussie V8 series are specifically designed to be shifted like that - they have strain sensors on the gearstick and they cut the ignition very briefly as the gearstick is banged backwards (upchange). Some drivers also do this on the downchange, but most seem to use the clutch and heal & toe traditionally to match revs.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Some V8Supercar drivers left foot brake. The cars still have the three pedals, but the left foot brakers mostly ignore the clutch.

Greg Murphy is probably the most notable left foot braker, and I believe Fabian Coulthard is too.

Greg Murphy on-board footage

Are those H-pattern gearboxes or a motorcycle style sequential? I'm surprised by how quick the downshift is and the little amount of throttle he needs to blip the revs. Though I suppose being a properly developed racing engine that thing revs pretty quickly when not connected to the wheels.

[BorderReiver]

You started this exact same thread just a couple of months ago . . .

[jeze]

You started this exact same thread just a couple of months ago . . .

And got bad answers then. Now I know better I'm not technical expert, mind you.

[dexter311]

Are those H-pattern gearboxes or a motorcycle style sequential? I'm surprised by how quick the downshift is and the little amount of throttle he needs to blip the revs. Though I suppose being a properly developed racing engine that thing revs pretty quickly when not connected to the wheels.

Back in 2006 the entire field used H-shifters. They still had the strain-gauged shift cut systems. Since 2008 I think they've phased in sequentials and everyone uses them now, but it's still the same Hollinger gearbox so the only difference is actuation.

[Lee Nicolle]

Back in 2006 the entire field used H-shifters. They still had the strain-gauged shift cut systems. Since 2008 I think they've phased in sequentials and everyone uses them now, but it's still the same Hollinger gearbox so the only difference is actuation.

They do have electronics that pause the engine to assist in down changes these days on Thuper cars.

[faaaz]

Left foot braking and downshifting without clutch looks really hard. I'm guessing the V8 gearboxes are specifically designed for this? What do u reckon would happen in a normal road car? I dont want to hear the gears grinding, so I wouldn't try it on my car lol. I'd stick to heal/toe, but just wondering if any of u guys have tried the downshift without clutch on a non-race specifc/designed gearbox?

[OfficeLinebacker]

Left foot braking and downshifting without clutch looks really hard. I'm guessing the V8 gearboxes are specifically designed for this? What do u reckon would happen in a normal road car? I dont want to hear the gears grinding, so I wouldn't try it on my car lol. I'd stick to heal/toe, but just wondering if any of u guys have tried the downshift without clutch on a non-race specifc/designed gearbox?

I did it by mistake this morning on a 1-2 shift. Once the revs match up it just slid into gear.

I don't think it's a big deal if you're careful...or does it abuse the synchronizers?

[SteveCanyon]

Left foot braking and downshifting without clutch looks really hard. I'm guessing the V8 gearboxes are specifically designed for this? What do u reckon would happen in a normal road car? I dont want to hear the gears grinding, so I wouldn't try it on my car lol. I'd stick to heal/toe, but just wondering if any of u guys have tried the downshift without clutch on a non-race specifc/designed gearbox?

I don't think the V8 Supercar gearbox is specifically designed to be able to downshift without using the clutch, but it's possible due to the dog-change type selectors. Not all drivers do it anyway.
And yes in a conventional synchro gearbox it's possible, I've had to do it for a while when I was running the Corolla in Malaysia during practice - the clutch ran out of fluid and we were short of time so I stayed out and did about five laps with no clutch. It took about a second off my just-under-three-minute lap times. I certainly wouldn't want to have to do it during the race or for any great length of time though.

[Scotracer]

FWIW: I've sat in Tim Harvey's Porsche Cup car with him talking me through how he drives and he clutch-less upshifts and heel & toe on downshifts. There's a ignition cut on the shifter. He says he never really liked left-foot braking but it can be useful to change the attitude of the car mid-corner.

[John Brundage]

Left foot braking and downshifting without clutch looks really hard. I'm guessing the V8 gearboxes are specifically designed for this? What do u reckon would happen in a normal road car? I dont want to hear the gears grinding, so I wouldn't try it on my car lol. I'd stick to heal/toe, but just wondering if any of u guys have tried the downshift without clutch on a non-race specifc/designed gearbox?

I don't left foot brake, but when my street cars have over 300,000 miles on it and I am looking for a replacement, I only use the clutch for first and reverse. I have never had a problem. I do have a class A CDL liscence and understand gear/speed matching. These have all been normal roadcars--Volvo 240's and a C70--probably a cumulative 40,000 miles.

[Lee Nicolle]

You can left foot brake in most cars, BUT changing without the clutch is really only suited for dogboxes with suitable electronics.Though it can be done but generally not good for the gearbox, particularly down changes !
But settling the car with the brake will often help times without lifting the go pedal, very common in oval racing ofcourse but works as well in circuit racing though ofcourse a bit harder, a bit more dancing on the pedals.

[wonk123]

I thought you would need to speed the engine up on a downshift not pause them ?1?

Many Touring car drivers use the technique (left foot braling), some not all the time,
and some real late and hard brakers clutch during braking and
downshifts to not have the engine braking upset the balance of the car by momentanly locking the wheels (mainly in FWD touring cars).

Cam McConville in the wet does both

[Ross Stonefeld]

FWIW: I've sat in Tim Harvey's Porsche Cup car with him talking me through how he drives and he clutch-less upshifts and heel & toe on downshifts. There's a ignition cut on the shifter. He says he never really liked left-foot braking but it can be useful to change the attitude of the car mid-corner.

F3 cars have a paddle on the left side of the steering which they have to depress at the same moment they pull the gear lever to get a flat-upshift. Which I always thought was a bit odd. Even if the rules/ECU doesn't allow an electronically assisted upshift like an old style Indycar, you'd have thought they'd have put a button/lever/paddle on the gear column. Either strain gauge, a button on top of the stalk, or the more clumsy solution of having the gear lever trip the switch on it's way back into the next gear change. But by all accounts it's something the drivers find a bit strange in their first laps in an F3. Nothing they can't figure out but the co-ordination is a bit alien as it's the only race car, as far as I know, that uses that paddle/lever combo.

[faaaz]

Awesome technique from Cam, but I don't quite get the reason for braking during mid corner? Is that to adjust the brake bias of the car? So in the case of the V8 to avoid oversteer by applying brake and throttle at the same time?

[gordmac]

If I remember correctly Vauxhall made an Astra rally car (for Brookes?) with an extra brake pedal on the rear circut.

[cheapracer]

If I remember correctly Vauxhall made an Astra rally car (for Brookes?) with an extra brake pedal on the rear circut.

Malcolm Wilson and Louise Aitken Walker's WRC Group A cars had that so possibly Russel Brookes also did if he ran one.

Awesome technique from Cam, but I don't quite get the reason for braking during mid corner? Is that to adjust the brake bias of the car? So in the case of the V8 to avoid oversteer by applying brake and throttle at the same time?

Can't see the vid but it's more likely to transfer weight to the fronts to get a bit more grip/lessen the grip at the rear to rotate the car - remember he's driving with a locked diff.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's also very wet and he's doing some pedal dancing that he would normally not have to do. Trying not to crash and all.

[Powersteer]

The beauty of left foot braking is transition, brake all the way into a corner to put more grip on the front wheels (if understeering is a problem, maybe on a sharper slow corner) then press the throttle slightly while still on brake mode..as you release the brake pedal the car would go from braking to coasting or accelerating so smoothly when mastered.

[faaaz]

How would you downshift without the clutch using left foot braking? Im tempted to try it now on my car, but not too sure how one would execute this technique. Guessing blimpin throthle while braking and then downshifting?

[OfficeLinebacker]

Left foot braking and downshifting without clutch looks really hard. I'm guessing the V8 gearboxes are specifically designed for this? What do u reckon would happen in a normal road car? I dont want to hear the gears grinding, so I wouldn't try it on my car lol. I'd stick to heal/toe, but just wondering if any of u guys have tried the downshift without clutch on a non-race specifc/designed gearbox?

So ever since this thread and my accidental clutchless upshift, I have been playing in my 1999 Mazda Protege. I have found that as long as the revs are DROPPING, as I apply pressure to put the car into the desired gear, as soon as the revs match, it slips right into gear.

However, if the engine revs are lower than the revs it would be at if the car were in the desired gear, there is a horrible grinding sound when pressure is applied.

Is this how synchronizers work?

So basically I could get away with not using the clutch save for first and reverse, as Lee stated. On upshifts I just am quick with the gear lever and then patient as the revs drop to match. This technique is easy

Downshifts are a lot trickier because I have to remember to blip the throttle, something I've never gotten down. I just started playing with that today.

Thankfully my gearbox is not sequential, so when I am slowing from 40 MPH to make a turn I can simply take the car out of gear, brake, and engage second just before the turn, for example.

Which makes me wonder--in racing, if a gearbox is NOT sequential, do most drivers do this? It seems a bit of a waste to do three throttle blips and clutch engagements (if used) and three gear changes when one will suffice.

[Scotracer]

F3 cars have a paddle on the left side of the steering which they have to depress at the same moment they pull the gear lever to get a flat-upshift. Which I always thought was a bit odd. Even if the rules/ECU doesn't allow an electronically assisted upshift like an old style Indycar, you'd have thought they'd have put a button/lever/paddle on the gear column. Either strain gauge, a button on top of the stalk, or the more clumsy solution of having the gear lever trip the switch on it's way back into the next gear change. But by all accounts it's something the drivers find a bit strange in their first laps in an F3. Nothing they can't figure out but the co-ordination is a bit alien as it's the only race car, as far as I know, that uses that paddle/lever combo.

That sounds positively horrendous! But what I'd give to drive a modern F3 car.

[Tony Matthews]

So ever since this thread and my accidental clutchless upshift, I have been playing in my 1999 Mazda Protege. I have found that as long as the revs are DROPPING, as I apply pressure to put the car into the desired gear, as soon as the revs match, it slips right into gear.

However, if the engine revs are lower than the revs it would be at if the car were in the desired gear, there is a horrible grinding sound when pressure is applied.

Is this how synchronizers work?


Downshifts are a lot trickier because I have to remember to blip the throttle, something I've never gotten down. I just started playing with that today.

Synchro rings essentially match the revs of the driving gear to the driven gear, by friction, and have heavily bevelled teeth to help the two gears align properly. However, there is a limit to what speed differential they can cope with. (If that very simplified description is wrong I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone tells me).

I am surprised that you have never blipped the throttle on down-shifts, as I have never not done it! However, a lot depends on the vehicle you learned to drive on, all the ones you drove since, and how sophisticated their gearboxes were! I don't think there is much need to do it now, apart from the very slight pleasure it gives - assuming you even realize you've done it - but I think it saves a small amount of clutch wear. Double-declutching, now that's fun!

[OfficeLinebacker]

I was never formally taught to drive a manual, I have basically learned on my own through being a mechanic. The oldest manual gearbox cars I've driven are from the 80s.

I learned about throttle blipping and double declutching at a Skip Barber weekend.

Edited by OfficeLinebacker, 19 November 2010 - 18:18.

[Tony Matthews]

I was never formally taught to drive a manual, I have basically learned on my own through being a mechanic. The oldest manual gearbox cars I've driven are from the 80s.

That's what I thought, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde "Two Nations divided by a common vehicle!" I've driven a few auto's, when I was mechanic'ing in Europe our tow-car was an automatic Mk IX Jag, but I still feel happier in a manual.

[OfficeLinebacker]

That's what I thought, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde "Two Nations divided by a common vehicle!" I've driven a few auto's, when I was mechanic'ing in Europe our tow-car was an automatic Mk IX Jag, but I still feel happier in a manual.

This is the first manual car I've owned and I love it more every day. It allows me to try out little tricks and techniques such as the ones discussed in this thread. It also makes me feel closer to my antipodean brethren!

Oh, and gas mileage.

[Grumbles]

Not really performance oriented, but if you get the chance to drive a Roadranger equipped truck for any length of time it'll be the best education you'll ever get in driving a non-synchronised manual. Once you can shift through the 13 - 18 speeds quietly (typically 2 ranges plus split) anything else will be a piece of cake.
I once had a drive of an old compound box Mack - somewhat less than gracefully I might add - and that was fun too. Two boxes in series, two shifters and NFI what gear I was in most of the time... When I was a kid my best friend's dad drove an old Mack timber jinker and we'd often go with him up and down steep and twisty mountain tracks hauling logs. He played those twin sticks like a virtuoso and rarely used the clutch. Thinking back now I can almost smell the diesel and the rubber and hear the whistle of the old Mack engine, wonderful days...

[Catalina Park]

Not really performance oriented, but if you get the chance to drive a Roadranger equipped truck for any length of time it'll be the best education you'll ever get in driving a non-synchronised manual. Once you can shift through the 13 - 18 speeds quietly (typically 2 ranges plus split) anything else will be a piece of cake.
I once had a drive of an old compound box Mack - somewhat less than gracefully I might add - and that was fun too. Two boxes in series, two shifters and NFI what gear I was in most of the time... When I was a kid my best friend's dad drove an old Mack timber jinker and we'd often go with him up and down steep and twisty mountain tracks hauling logs. He played those twin sticks like a virtuoso and rarely used the clutch. Thinking back now I can almost smell the diesel and the rubber and hear the whistle of the old Mack engine, wonderful days...

I was going to mention the Roadranger box as a driver education tool. I started driving trucks at 18 with a 9 speed Roadranger and eventually worked my way up to an 18 speed. It is all very simple until you get lost!
The 9's and 10's are great things. I loved my father's 10 speed 653 powered GM Bedford. You could rocket through the shifts quicker than a syncro box.
You can just skip gears in both directions once you learn the technique. It is a lot of fun.

Never did drive a Mack with a quad box. I knew a bloke with one arm that used to drive one! It was his left arm that was missing too! (right arm for North Americans)

I have been driving with Allison transmissions for the past five years. Luxury.

My gearstick looks like this....

[gruntguru]

So ever since this thread and my accidental clutchless upshift, I have been playing in my 1999 Mazda Protege. I have found that as long as the revs are DROPPING, as I apply pressure to put the car into the desired gear, as soon as the revs match, it slips right into gear.

However, if the engine revs are lower than the revs it would be at if the car were in the desired gear, there is a horrible grinding sound when pressure is applied.

Is this how synchronizers work?

Modern synchronisers do two things:
1. They use friction to synchronise the two gears about to be engaged
2. They inhibit complete engagement of the gears while their speeds are mis-matched

Early systems featured item 1. only. Item 2. is the feature that tries to stop you fully engaging the gear before the engine revs are matched.

Clutchless downshifts are easy too with practice - you just need to rev the engine enough to match the lower gear you are selecting Either way, this technique (up and down shifts) will increase wear on your syncro-rings.

Edited by gruntguru, 20 November 2010 - 05:41.

[Tony Matthews]

My gearstick looks like this....

You mean...it works as a remote? Blimey! "What are you doing in your pocket?" "Changing gear, sweetheart!"

[Catalina Park]

You mean...it works as a remote? Blimey! "What are you doing in your pocket?" "Changing gear, sweetheart!"

No, it is not a remote. It was just that was the best photo that I could steal off Google. The unit mounts on the centre console alongside me roughly where the normal gear stick would poke up.

[Tony Matthews]

No, it is not a remote. It was just that was the best photo that I could steal off Google. The unit mounts on the centre console alongside me roughly where the normal gear stick would poke up.

I'm slightly disappointed that you thought I was being serious, but I'll get over it - eventually.

[Catalina Park]

I'm slightly disappointed that you thought I was being serious, but I'll get over it - eventually.

I knew you that you were not being serious but I thought that I had better explain for the younger viewers. They might get their hopes up.
The shift is a nifty bit of gear. Not only can I change gears with it and I can also check the oil and run diagnostics just by pushing the right buttons.

[Tony Matthews]

I knew you that you were not being serious but I thought that I had better explain for the younger viewers. They might get their hopes up.
The shift is a nifty bit of gear. Not only can I change gears with it and I can also check the oil and run diagnostics just by pushing the right buttons.

I have always had great pleasure from driving different types of vehicle, and the more you have to concentrate and use accumulated experience, dexterity and your sense - such as hearing - the more fun it is. I don't get the chance much nowadays, but a couple of years ago a friend hired a mini-digger to landscape his garden, and after spending a day with it and being sure he could handle it, he phoned me and said "Come and see what I've got!" Being a competitive bastard he was naturally hoping I'd make an idiot of myself, especially as by now it was dark. Took about five minutes, much to his disappointment. I think using a Playstation helps...

[SteveCanyon]

Quick thread hijack for a laugh and to do with unusual skills on the road.
For one of the Malaysian 12-Hour races I did involved driving the Corolla to/from the track from the workshop in town, because I was a foreigner the police couldn't take my licence off me and only give me a verbal warning to not drive a racing car on the road, so the local guys just used to let me do it.
Was bringing the car back from the track once, on slicks of course, and it started pissing down as it can do rather well in Kuala Lumpur. The rain got thicker and thicker which initially was good as the traffic slowed down so I was less nervous about aquaplaning on the race rubber as we were only doing maybe 30km/h. Of course then the windscreen started to fog up badly which was bad because the racer had no heater box. The only way out of that was to pull off my t-shirt (it wasn't official practice at the track so I only wore my safety t-shirt, safety shorts, safety joggers, and spare helmet) to wipe the inside of the windscreen.
It was at about that point, while I was sitting half-naked in the car, I realised it would be rather difficult to explain how I happened to be doing all this if I got pulled over by the police. Why was a half-naked foreigner driving a racing car through the city in the rain? For the life of me I just couldn't think of an excuse, but fortunately I didn't get pulled over and I learned how the slicks felt in heavy water and that helped me in a couple of races after that.
I did manage to take a photo as well.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Quick thread hijack for a laugh and to do with unusual skills on the road.
For one of the Malaysian 12-Hour races I did involved driving the Corolla to/from the track from the workshop in town, because I was a foreigner the police couldn't take my licence off me and only give me a verbal warning to not drive a racing car on the road, so the local guys just used to let me do it.
Was bringing the car back from the track once, on slicks of course, and it started pissing down as it can do rather well in Kuala Lumpur. The rain got thicker and thicker which initially was good as the traffic slowed down so I was less nervous about aquaplaning on the race rubber as we were only doing maybe 30km/h. Of course then the windscreen started to fog up badly which was bad because the racer had no heater box. The only way out of that was to pull off my t-shirt (it wasn't official practice at the track so I only wore my safety t-shirt, safety shorts, safety joggers, and spare helmet) to wipe the inside of the windscreen.
It was at about that point, while I was sitting half-naked in the car, I realised it would be rather difficult to explain how I happened to be doing all this if I got pulled over by the police. Why was a half-naked foreigner driving a racing car through the city in the rain? For the life of me I just couldn't think of an excuse, but fortunately I didn't get pulled over and I learned how the slicks felt in heavy water and that helped me in a couple of races after that.
I did manage to take a photo as well.

(a pic)

WTF, dude? LOL.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Modern synchronisers do two things:
1. They use friction to synchronise the two gears about to be engaged
2. They inhibit complete engagement of the gears while their speeds are mis-matched

Early systems featured item 1. only. Item 2. is the feature that tries to stop you fully engaging the gear before the engine revs are matched.

Clutchless downshifts are easy too with practice - you just need to rev the engine enough to match the lower gear you are selecting Either way, this technique (up and down shifts) will increase wear on your syncro-rings.

Thanks. The bold is mine, this is what I wanted to know, in particular.

The interesting thing to me, in my car, is that 2. only works when the revs of the engine are too high. Revs too low and there's no resistance to going into gear and I can grind 'em.

Cheers.

[faaaz]

LOL@ Steve..slicks in wet sounds fun..

I've been trying it too @Officelinebacker, however the shifts dont seem to be very smooth..when the gears engage it sounds like more of a thud..At least the gears arn't grinding lol..But left foot braking seems more of a hassle than anything, I guess with enough practice it can become second nature like heal-toe. I think heal-toe is better for my novice skills at the moment lol

[Tony Matthews]

I think heal-toe is better for my novice skills at the moment lol

Heel-and-toe is better!

[pugfan]

"Come and see what I've got!" Being a competitive bastard he was naturally hoping I'd make an idiot of myself, especially as by now it was dark. Took about five minutes, much to his disappointment. I think using a Playstation helps...

I didn't know there was a digger in Gran Turismo.

[Tony Matthews]

I didn't know there was a digger in Gran Turismo.

Don't mention digger, cobber!

[gruntguru]

Heel-and-toe is better!

Perhaps he has a blister from too much heel & toe? (Polka?)