34 replies to this topic

[sandy]

Sitting beside my youngest son showing my grandson super fast cars accelerating on Youtube and being stuck in a time warp as I am of never growing out of 1957 just how would a 250F Maserati stack up against the current crop of high speed road cars?

For example, how would the 250F go against an Audi S8 V10 0-100 kmh? (This is my son's particular question).

Edited by sandy, 24 January 2010 - 09:28.

[john aston]

Sitting beside my youngest son showing my grandson super fast cars accelerating on Youtube and being stuck in a time warp as I am of never growing out of 1957 just how would a 250F Maserati stack up against the current crop of highspeed road cars?

The Maserati would not disgrace itself in top speed terms but cornering and braking would highlight 50 years progress- and tyre technology too. But remember that a lot of so called supercars can throw hissy fits if exposed to serious track work- despite all the Nurburgring bullshit I have often encountered Ferraris and big Mercs really struggling after a few laps on track days.I susect a well looked after 250F would keep on keeping on all day long ! I am biased as a Seven owner but remember that a little R500 Caterham with 250 bhp was quicker than a silly 1000bhp Veyron on the Top Gear test track- as no Caterham owner will ever let anybody forget..

[Bauble]

How a 250F would compare performance wise to a modern supercar is hardly relevant, for while I have never driven one, the sheer pleasure of sliding, drifting such a legend must be beyond compare.
With a 1950's Grand Prix car you drove it, the modern supercar drives you.
In your dreams see Fangio (250F Maserati) V Jenson Button (Bugatti Veyron) on the old Rouen Grand Prix circuit, sans barriers etc.

Basically; Who cares!

[Peter Morley]

I can't compare these two cars directly (our Connaught is as fast as a 250F but I've never driven it on the road!) but when we had our Type 37A Bugatti (1.5 litre, 4 cylinder, supercharged - much slower than a 35B apparently) I was usually driving the support car when we went testing, that was a Mark 2 Golf GTi (the quickest version for a long time) and the Bugatti was quicker in a straight line but what was really amazing were the cornering speeds - a comfortable corner in the Bugatti had the Golf leaning over on its doorhandles and it was fitted with a stiffened suspension kit...

In general the Golf was much easier to drive but, as with most road cars, it was a lot more difficult near the limit, all the soft suspension bushing (to keep the noise & vibration down) moves around and makes the road car less predictable.
Race cars are really about increasing the cornering speed - the acceleration is pretty much determined by the engine power, tyre size & car weight and will be pretty much the same for all cars in that formula.

As for the original question someone gives a 0-60 mph figure of under 4.5 seconds for a 250F, of course that will depend on what gearing they were using.

I was very surprised to see that my current Subaru apparently laps the Nurburgring quicker than 3 litre F1 cars did in the 70s! Given the power to weight is much worse (the F1 cars were doing 0-150 mph in 9 seconds) it must be quicker on the twisty bits which really surprised me.

Edited by Peter Morley, 24 January 2010 - 12:16.

[Philip Whiteman]

The Nick Mason/Mark Hales book 'Into the Red' is a useful source of performance data on old racing cars – certainly, the first time I've seen it collected together. I expect that's where Peter's sub-4.5 second 0 to 60 time came from (Peter?). They quote 0 to 60 in 6 seconds for the Type 35B.

Of course, you also get with with the book a CD with some wonderful racing car noises…

[Tom Glowacki]

The Nick Mason/Mark Hales book 'Into the Red' is a useful source of performance data on old racing cars – certainly, the first time I've seen it collected together. I expect that's where Peter's sub-4.5 second 0 to 60 time came from (Peter?). They quote 0 to 60 in 6 seconds for the Type 35B.

Of course, you also get with with the book a CD with some wonderful racing car noises…

Back in around the early 1980's, a Pontiac Fiero was the Indy 500 Pace Car. With a 2.7 litre 4 cylinder engine, a passenger, air, a radio, and flapping flags, it was pacing the field at 150 mph, which is faster than Sir Jack did with the same sized engine in 1961, never mind he did not have a/c and a sound system.

Edited by Tom Glowacki, 24 January 2010 - 13:08.

[Robin Fairservice]

I have just looked in "Into the red", and the Maserati 250F was timed at 4.3 seconds for 0 - 60 mph, and 9.2 seconds 0 to 100 mph. The MacLaren F1 GTR was 3.2 seconds 0 to 60 and 6.3 seconds for 0 to 100 mph. The BRM V16 was 2.7 and 7.9 seconds respectively.

[Michael_Delaney]

I have just looked in "Into the red", and the Maserati 250F was timed at 4.3 seconds for 0 - 60 mph, and 9.2 seconds 0 to 100 mph. The MacLaren F1 GTR was 3.2 seconds 0 to 60 and 6.3 seconds for 0 to 100 mph. The BRM V16 was 2.7 and 7.9 seconds respectively.

This differences let the 250F still shining!

MD

[LittleChris]

I was very surprised to see that my current Subaru apparently laps the Nurburgring quicker than 3 litre F1 cars did in the 70s! Given the power to weight is much worse (the F1 cars were doing 0-150 mph in 9 seconds) it must be quicker on the twisty bits which really surprised me.

Peter, Don't forget that the Nordschleife is over a mile shorter these days than it was in the 70's following the digging up of the old Start-finish area.

[Peter Morley]

The Nick Mason/Mark Hales book 'Into the Red' is a useful source of performance data on old racing cars – certainly, the first time I've seen it collected together. I expect that's where Peter's sub-4.5 second 0 to 60 time came from (Peter?). They quote 0 to 60 in 6 seconds for the Type 35B.

Of course, you also get with with the book a CD with some wonderful racing car noises…

You're probably right I couldn't remember where I'd seen it but did have a feeling it might have been in that book.

[Peter Morley]

Peter, Don't forget that the Nordschleife is over a mile shorter these days than it was in the 70's following the digging up of the old Start-finish area.

That would explain the difference wouldn't it! I'm sure I knew that and pointed it out when someone was quoting me those lap times - the brain's definitely going!

I expect the track surface is a lot better these days as well, modern high grip surfaces can make a huge difference when comparing even unchanged circuits.

[David Birchall]

Back in around the early 1980's, a Pontiac Fiero was the Indy 500 Pace Car. With a 2.7 litre 4 cylinder engine, a passenger, air, a radio, and flapping flags, it was pacing the field at 150 mph, which is faster than Sir Jack did with the same sized engine in 1961, never mind he did not have a/c and a sound system.

Tom, I don't mean to be offensive, but that sounds like a lot of bollocks!
Perhaps the car was VERY specially prepared (ie V8 engine), otherwise not possible.
I would be delighted to be corrected but, a Fiero?

Edit: just found this: http://www.indypacecars.com/1984.html

I think the opening of my post should have read 'Possible exaggeration"...

Edited by David Birchall, 24 January 2010 - 22:31.

[gkennedy]

Beat me to it. A 232 hp version - a 250% power increase over the production Fiero, and around 136 mph, not 150. http://www.calgaryfi...com/INDYcar.htm

[D-Type]

Are we talking about a 250F now or back in the day? With 50 years of engine development and modern rubber...

[David Birchall]

And do we want to open that particular can of worms-again?

[D-Type]

And do we want to open that particular can of worms-again?

Not really.

[Philip Whiteman]

Keeping the worm-can opener in the drawer, but Mark Hales (who I know from his aviation writing) tells me that the Mason 250F is in much the same state of tune as it was in the late 1950s (although the tyre compound is bound to be better).

I think most of the development work has gone into the British cars latter-day restorers know best – things like really hot Jaguar engines and those Listers with the ultra thin-gauge, super-light alloy bodies (allegedly) but now that drawer's half open…

[Tom Glowacki]

Tom, I don't mean to be offensive, but that sounds like a lot of bollocks!
Perhaps the car was VERY specially prepared (ie V8 engine), otherwise not possible.
I would be delighted to be corrected but, a Fiero?

Edit: just found this: http://www.indypacecars.com/1984.html

I think the opening of my post should have read 'Possible exaggeration"...

Not bad for off the top of my head. Sir Jack qualified at 145 and change.

While we're at it, I seem to recall that after the re-paving of Road America in the early 1980's, S2000 qualifying times would have put Bruce and Denny's M6As in the middle of the pack with their 1967 qualifying times.

[D-Type]

Resurfacing, easing of bends, etc happen all the time to circuits making comparison of times interesting but not definitive.

One year Motor Sport compared times at Goodwood now and 'back in the day'. They found that while some cars are faster now, some are slower - and they made clear that the examples cited can't be put down to driver skill.

[bradbury west]

ISTR that the telling example was John Ure in Peter Mann's ERA. The lap speeds which always fascinate me at the Revival are those in the TT lookalike 1 hour race. The cars still seem to struggle to lap as quickly in this shorter, 2-driver race than in period when it was single driver over 3 hours, despite some of the seemingly hotrod cars racing these days, and even then some fail to complete the course.
Roger Lund

[Sharman]

Roger
The car which always makes me think "haaarumph" is Mike Waterhouse's Healey as driven by Stu Graham. A certain Twin Cam (which curiously once belonged to Mike before he rolled it) went round Goodwood faster than any Sebring ever did in period.
John

[Paul Parker]

[
ISTR that the telling example was John Ure in Peter Mann's ERA. The lap speeds which always fascinate me at the Revival are those in the TT lookalike 1 hour race. The cars still seem to struggle to lap as quickly in this shorter, 2-driver race than in period when it was single driver over 3 hours, despite some of the seemingly hotrod cars racing these days, and even then some fail to complete the course.
Roger Lund
[/quote]

This is something I noted several years ago but in recent races the GTs are now quicker than they were in period, or at least the E types are. The Cobras are about par or slightly better and only in 2009 did a GTO beat Graham Hill's 1963 GTO time of 1m 27.0 sec. David Piper told me these GTO times were courtesy of 7.00 section rear Dunlops, the moulds for which have long since disappeared according to 'Pipes'.

Everything else excepting the 1.5/2.0 litre F1s, especially the big front engined 1950s sports cars, are much, much quicker than in period.

[Doug Nye]

Strange thing about driving traditional front-engined GP cars is that you find yourself, in effect, sitting in a position which would be the back seat in a family saloon, with the back axle within inches of your backside, and in many of the cars your head effectively sticking out of what would be 'the sunroof'. The first F1 Ferrari I drove was Wheatie's 125. With its supercharged V12 engine and swing-axle rear suspension dingly-dongling about with a mind of its own I remember it sounded FABULOUS yet seemed to display approximately the same grunt and handling as a Triumph TR3A (crossed with a VW Beetle). Except at the very top end, I suspect that a respectable Honda Civic would have it for breakfast. Such is progress.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 25 January 2010 - 23:28.

[sandy]

As for the original question someone gives a 0-60 mph figure of under 4.5 seconds for a 250F, of course that will depend on what gearing they were using.

I was very surprised to see that my current Subaru apparently laps the Nurburgring quicker than 3 litre F1 cars did in the 70s! Given the power to weight is much worse (the F1 cars were doing 0-150 mph in 9 seconds) it must be quicker on the twisty bits which really surprised me.

This conjures up the image of Fangio pushing Collins and Hawthorn hard while Peter goes around the outside of all of them in his Subaru!

[Peter Morley]

This conjures up the image of Fangio pushing Collins and Hawthorn hard while Peter goes around the outside of all of them in his Subaru!

Interesting thought - maybe if it was wet...

One other example - I bumped into a friend (maybe 10 years ago) who was having new tyres fitted on his Ferrari Dino, he said it was a pain to drive it on the road since he worried about overheating in traffic and that someone might bump into it and I suggested it must be a pain getting blown away by all the GTis etc, he said they weren't the problem even the standard versions were quicker! Now his wasn't the best maintained Dino but it does give an idea of how much quicker modern road cars are.

[Lee Nicolle]

Very hard comparing apples!! Most old racecars go faster now than they did in their day by using some modern technology. Even just oils make a difference.And so do tyres, even the same size ones. Modern compounds are a lot faster and consistent. And modern road tyres just have so much more grip than period ones
Lots of modern strong road cars are as quick or quicker then the 50y/o stuff but will never do the deeds trhast those old cars did in their heyday.
And ofcourse modern tracks are so much different, most changed so no comparison can be made. And if they are the surfaces are better, smoother and generally more streamlined making lap times coincidental
For Aussie members the humble HQ Holden racer is faster around Bathurst than XU1s!!, even taking into account for the chase. And ofcourse in the 60s a big deal was made about the first 100mph average lap. In 82 Gricey did that feat in a Commodore!!. Not the cars or drivers but modern tracks are so much faster

[Flaminiasupersport]

I guess you had to have "balls" to drive a 250F or any kind of racecar back then. Nowadays you can crash at high speeds into a wall with just a bruise while back then even the straights could be deadly!

It's almost impossible to compare old and new. Old racing cars drift (requests top driving skills and courage) while modern cars corner much harder. Same for the modern brakes compared to the "slowing down mechanism" of yesteryear!

[sandy]

I reckon steering would come into it as well. I recently read that a Lago Talbot steers like a truck. I would have thought that it would be precise and razor sharp. Looking at old movies of 158 Alfas and such there seems to be much sawing away at the wheel and so I guess that there is actually plenty of slack and of course Stirling Moss's contemporary report on the V16 BRM is hair raising when he describes there being 5" to 7" movement with the steering wheel but no corresponding movement with the front wheels at all. One gets the impression after reading of Fangio throwing a 250F around that the steering is of the highest order of precision but is that really the case?

[Eric Dunsdon]

Stirling Moss's contemporary report on the V16 BRM is hair raising when he describes there being 5" to 7" movement with the steering wheel but no corresponding movement with the front wheels at all.

i have always thought it curious that Sirling Moss has always been so critical of the Mark 1 V16 BRM. The great man seems eager to point out what an awful car it was at every opportunity and yet Fangio, Gonzalez, Wharton, Parnell and Walker seemed to get on with it well enough. I believe that Fangio spoke very well of the car. I would agree that a wet Dundrod road circuit was hardly the ideal place to make your race debut with a V16 but even so, I have sometimes thought that the Moss bias against the car was a little over the top.

[Bloggsworth]

I heard cars like the 250F were made to drift easily as opposed to modern cars.

Narrow, cross-ply tyres meant much higher slip angles - it was the tyres that dictated the angle of drift, not the cars.

[nmansellfan]

I was very surprised to see that my current Subaru apparently laps the Nurburgring quicker than 3 litre F1 cars did in the 70s! Given the power to weight is much worse (the F1 cars were doing 0-150 mph in 9 seconds) it must be quicker on the twisty bits which really surprised me.

I watched a few of the live German GP broadcasts from the late sixties onwards that have been kicking around on the net a while back and put a stopwatch on the time it took for 3 litre F1 cars to negotiate the distance from the curve onto the main straight, around the Sudkurve, and back up to the the left hander behind the pits, effectively the section of track that was built over when the new GP track was built. In 1967 it took about 44 seconds to negotiate this part, and around 40-41 by 1975. So if you take off around that amount of time from a GP laptime, it certainly does put the GP cars back in favour over nearly every road car ever made. Thats not taking into account track improvements, planing off of jumps etc. like you mentioned earlier Peter.

Not exactly scientific, but Top Gear did a feature a couple of series ago where they took 3 very capable sports saloons from the big German manufacturers with over 400 horsepower to the Ascari circuit in Spain. The Stig then set a laptime for each car, but not before he did the same in a 1972 Lotus 72. From a standing start with each car, he was over 20 seconds quicker with the Lotus than any of the road cars. Yes I know its Top Gear, but still...




I went to the Oulton Park Gold Cup last summer and a friends uncle remarked that the fastest cars in the Formula Ford 1600 historic races were only a couple of seconds slower a lap than the fastest GP cars in the pre '66 race, he himself having been an FF1600 racer in the late 70's to late 80's. Such is progress, even over only the 15-odd year gap from the youngest pre '66 GP car to the youngest FF historic racer that weekend. The difference was that you could hear the GP cars coming from half a mile away... Regardless, they were an awesome sight to watch; a Grand Prix car will always be a Grand Prix car.

Thats not to belittle FF1600 cars or the racing, not one bit; there has ever been a boring FF race at Oulton, has there?

[john aston]

There is a MASSIVE difference between laptimes of single seaters and even the quickest road cars.The average Top Gear viewer- which we are not obviously -still will believe that some adolescent fantasy Koeniggsegg or Skyline is quick in absolute terms. A Formula Renault or even a Jedi would annihilate any road car on track. I remember when EVO magazine teted a number of cars at Cadwell- the two quick ones being a Duratec R400 and a 911GT3 RS- neither was as quick as a Formula Ford - 30 years old , lucky if it had more than 100bhp and running on rubber band tyres,

[Peter Morley]

There is a MASSIVE difference between laptimes of single seaters and even the quickest road cars.The average Top Gear viewer- which we are not obviously -still will believe that some adolescent fantasy Koeniggsegg or Skyline is quick in absolute terms. A Formula Renault or even a Jedi would annihilate any road car on track. I remember when EVO magazine teted a number of cars at Cadwell- the two quick ones being a Duratec R400 and a 911GT3 RS- neither was as quick as a Formula Ford - 30 years old , lucky if it had more than 100bhp and running on rubber band tyres,

I really should have emphasied my lack of belief when I was told about the road car lap times!
Straightline speeds might be closish, but cornering speeds will be totally different.
Even racing 'saloons' like DTM cars are miles off single seater pace - the early high tech DTM cars were pretty spectacular even though they were about as quick as a Formula Ford.
And as I said earlier one of the slower 1920s GP Bugatti is much quicker than an old school 'hot hatch'.

BTW anyone thinking of buying a Koeniggsegg might be interested in their engine running in procedure - a friend works on Merlin engines on the airfield where they are built and reports that the running in procedure is to take a new cold engine and run it at full revs, apparently that runs it in within 10 seconds and is OK because the electronics look after everything, he suspects that they aren't expected to do very high mileages!

[Sharman]

I really should have emphasied my lack of belief when I was told about the road car lap times!
Straightline speeds might be closish, but cornering speeds will be totally different.
Even racing 'saloons' like DTM cars are miles off single seater pace - the early high tech DTM cars were pretty spectacular even though they were about as quick as a Formula Ford.
And as I said earlier one of the slower 1920s GP Bugatti is much quicker than an old school 'hot hatch'.

BTW anyone thinking of buying a Koeniggsegg might be interested in their engine running in procedure - a friend works on Merlin engines on the airfield where they are built and reports that the running in procedure is to take a new cold engine and run it at full revs, apparently that runs it in within 10 seconds and is OK because the electronics look after everything, he suspects that they aren't expected to do very high mileages!

Peter
An old friend now gone to the big circuit in the sky used to work with Freddy Dixon. He related how Freddy used to run in his racing machinery to wit :-belt them from new (clearances in those days being a lot less exact) round Brooklands until they were on the point of seizure. Then strip them down and relieve all points which showed tightness. Rebuild and they were run in!
John

[doc knutsen]

There is a MASSIVE difference between laptimes of single seaters and even the quickest road cars.The average Top Gear viewer- which we are not obviously -still will believe that some adolescent fantasy Koeniggsegg or Skyline is quick in absolute terms. A Formula Renault or even a Jedi would annihilate any road car on track. I remember when EVO magazine teted a number of cars at Cadwell- the two quick ones being a Duratec R400 and a 911GT3 RS- neither was as quick as a Formula Ford - 30 years old , lucky if it had more than 100bhp and running on rubber band tyres,

Not only that, but there is a bit of a difference between racing saloon cars and road-going exotica as well. A top Swedish Touring Car Championship driver took a Koenigsegg around our local Rudskogen Track for a TV feature, and after trying for some time finally managed a 1.05 lap time. This track has not seen reasonably modern single-seaters for some years, as the only s/s category run here is "Formula Basic" (which are the old Formula First Fiesta-powered cars, rejuvenated). But when Formula Opel/Vauxhall-Lotus were running, in the Nineties, they would dip into lap times well below a minute. A well-driven Historic Escort Mk I BDG is capable of running sub-minute lap times, while a Period F Cooper S, running on threaded CR65 tyres, does 1.10 laps.

At Vaalerbanen circuit ( a bit quicker than Rudskogen), a magazine recently ran a group test of hot hatches, such as the Golf GTI, with the products from Ford, Honda and Renault etc present. While the Golf was quickest, again in the hands of a professional racing driver, the best lap time of 1.14.9 was five seconds off a good Mini lap time, with my humble 998 Imp - running Yokohama 048s - being over three seconds quicker than the modern GTIs. And that is despite the lack of huge wheels and tyres, and all the electronic gadgets. Incidentally, the 200BHP Honda fried its brakes after three hot laps...
But of course, weight is the deciding factor. A modern 200BHP GTI weighs in at over 1300kg - while the Imp and the Minis are about 640. How much does the 'Egg weigh?

Edited by doc knutsen, 20 February 2010 - 18:52.