15 replies to this topic

[SlateGray]

How does this rear brake traction control work? It seemes to me that such a system would require electronically contolled servos. This type of electromagnetic servo requires a large amount of power, it must also be plumbed into the system somewhere. IMHO this would be to large and complex a system to keep hidden from officials. As we all know most traction control systems work by changing the ignition map based on the CPU comparing the differences in wheel speeds.
Can someone (Frans) please explain this rear brake traction control system?

[moog101]

Originally posted by SlateGray
As we all know most traction control systems work by changing the ignition map based on the CPU comparing the differences in wheel speeds.

Not any more they don't (until it gets legalised) as they can only monitor the speed of the rear wheels, to make it harder to compare driven-wheel speed to undriven-wheel speed (and thus detect wheel spin).

They use the brakes to 'kill' the wheel spin, which they probably detect by monitoring a too-sharp increase in revs, or of wheel speed in relation to the which gear and what revs the car has.

[desmo]

SlateGray, you are correct, to implement a TC system using the brakes one would have to have a servo-powered cylinder plumbed into the braking circuits. Such a thing would be exceedingly easy for the scrutineers to spot. Trust me no one has used a brake to implement TC the past couple of years.

[RedFever]

desmo -

"SlateGray, you are correct, to implement a TC system using the brakes one would have to have a servo-powered cylinder plumbed into the braking circuits. Such a thing would be exceedingly easy for the scrutineers to spot. Trust me no one has used a brake to implement TC the past couple of years."

That is obvious but try to explain it to the experts on this site.....

[SlateGray]

Thanks everyone for your posts. I was really hoping Frans would answer this question as he is the one who thinks the red cars have it. Come in Frans.

[Wolf]

Maybe I can speak for Frans- perhaps those cars are red because of the transfer of the excessive glowing from the brakes to the chasis. Sorry, couldn't resist that one.

[DangerMouse]

The only time brake TC has been used in F1 since the ban has been McLarens manual 3rd pedal system and Ferrari's dodgy system during 98/early 99.
The Mac system was purely driver operated mechanically and got banned. The Ferrari's "electronic brake balance system" automatically took brake balance away from the front wheels under heavy acceleration allowing left foot braking to be used as full TC.

All other systems have relied on detecting or predicting wheel spin and preventing it before it happens by nature of engine tuning.

The 97 Ferrari system had a 3rd dimension in the engine map determining maximum possible engine acceleration for a given gear and closing the throttle and rapidly reapplying it when this acceleration criteria was met hence the “strange noise” accusations against Ferrari.

The late 97 Mac system was similar. The 98 Mac had the 3rd pedal and toward the end of the season a learning EMS which in my opinion had some kind of system to reshape the ignition curve when wheel spin was detected - I believe this is similar to what Ferrari is running now.

Looking at the way the 2K Williams handles out of slow corners their system is pretty primitive at the moment - they are obviously not very good at making 'hidden' systems!

[Frans MSH]

pleaase.... I don't have my copy&paste bictionairy with me this moment!!!

is this somewhat a slight brainwashy way to try and say Ferrari doesn't know how to USE traction control?

:lol::lol::lol:

Ask Czapski how he did it.. he's the expert..

"The only time brake TC has been used in F1 since the ban"

and there are about 100 diffrent way's to use traction control in modern day F1.... it's incredible!

saying they can't is an insult to the brains of Ferrari.

Saying they won't use it is ignoring today's politics and money in F1.

sorry.

[DangerMouse]

Frans, I said "brake TC" that's employing TC buy means of using the rear brakes, since the ban with the exceptions I pointed out above TC has been via engine management not brake fiddling.

[Frans MSH]

If your pushing the gas, 800+ hp on two rear wheels (+4 grooves) going into a corner with 300+ km/h and you have to brake back to 100 km/h to accelerate out it, and your pushing to much gas, the "system" has to REDUCE that power.

Then just imagine HOW in earth are you gonna get that "to much power" off the wheels ???? with the BRAKES of course! dUh! What else?


Making a fast lap in F1 doesn't mean who puts the gas on the throttle on the right time, no, it's who applies the BRAKES at the right time. This will all change in 2001. Because "the system" wil ldo the rest.

the rear brake is the part what stops the wheels from spinning, how MORE power applied on the gas, how HARDER the system has to work, how harder the brakes will have to work to reduce the ammount of power on the rear wheels. This will make the rear brakes glow up, while the car actually is accelerating! Because the system calculates the RIGHT ammount of power what needs to be applied to get maximum grip it will calculate the precise ammount of power, and brakes away the rest.

Result: to get the corner as fastest as calculatable is possible with that car. How harder you apply the gas, where it is NOT needed so much, how harder the brakes will have to work, at any traction control system almost.

Just tell me then, how on earth do you want to "control" the grip of the car, NOT with the rear wheels, where the power is applied to the track, on two rubber wheels, with 4 grooves.

teams do have some form of traction control, for the car in the pitlimiter, because it's for ANY driver impossible just to apply 800 +hp on those two wheels so slightly.


with TC back in the game in 2001, we'll likely to see many of these glowing rear brakes while cars accelerate.

just watch 2001!

[DangerMouse]

You cut fuelling to a number of cylinders and/or ****** ignition timing.

Get a brain.

[SlateGray]

Frans.

Don't get me wrong I am no big fan of MS.
What I would really like you to tell me is how the system works and how the officials missed finding it.

[Williams]

Excuse my ignorance, but I never seen in any technical journal or race magazine where brakes were used as a form of computer-driven traction control. This whole idea just popped up because of Frans and his silly "glowing brakes while accelerating idea", and some newbies on the BB who are not familiar with Fran's tortured thought processes picked it up and made it a serious issue.

It may have also arisen beacuse of the McLaren's so-called "brake-steer" system, which was not brake-steer at all, but manual traction control, which was, at the time, perfectly legal and well within both the spirit and the letter of the regulations. At no time has such a system ben automated or computer-driven, since it is too easy to catch the mechanical transducers required to implement such a system.

Unless someone can point to an authoritive source who says different, let's just get this straight right now (repeat after me): computer traction control and brakes have nothing to do with each other.

[Blue]

Traction control
by Jim Kerr

The new model cars and trucks are now appearing at most automobile dealerships. Improvements such as more horsepower, better fuel economy, more versatile cup holders, and "hot" new colours are advertised to attract potential new owners to the dealerships. While these can be desirable features, there are other features available on some new vehicles that can make driving easier and more enjoyable. One of these improvements is called "traction control".

Traction control is not new. The concept of increasing the traction of the driving tires has been around for decades. Professional top fuel drag racers used a crude system of traction control in the 1960's and 1970's to limit tire spin and shorten their elapsed times down the quarter mile racetrack. Their approach was to make the clutch slip so horsepower to the rear wheels was limited to only the maximum the tires could handle. While this concept works, clutch repairs and maintenance are time consuming and expensive! Today, passenger cars rely on electronics to increase the vehicle's traction.

Traditionally found only in luxury vehicles such as Cadillac, Lincoln, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and Jaguar, traction control is quickly finding its way into lower priced family market cars. Some vehicles such as Saturn equipped with antilock brakes and automatic transmission have had it for some time.

The antilock brake system is the key to determining how much traction is available. Wheel speed sensors used for the brake system signal the difference in speed between the front and rear wheels. This difference is then signalled from the antilock brake computer to other computers on the car to control traction. Just as antilock brakes has become common on modern vehicles, so will traction control.

Maximum traction is obtained when the tires on the drive wheels just begin to slip against the road surface. Maximum traction for braking is between 14% and 20% slippage. For maximum traction during acceleration, the electronic systems on today's cars allow up to 30% slippage. The extra slippage or wheel spin helps the tires to dig through any ice or snow.

There are many different methods of controlling the traction of the vehicle: retarding ignition timing, reducing fuel delivery, controlling the transmission, controlling the throttle, or applying the brakes. These methods can be used independently or in any combination depending upon vehicle design. Some of these methods are used manually by skilled drivers when driving vehicles without traction control on slippery roads.

Each of the methods used to control traction limits power to the drive wheels, just as the slipping clutch does on a drag racing car. Retarding ignition timing is the quickest way to reduce power. The engine computer can do this in a fraction of a second. Reducing fuel delivery is the next easiest to do. The computer turns off a fuel injector for a short time and the engine has less power. The driver usually doesn't even notice the difference.

Shifting the transmission to a higher gear also reduces power to the drive wheels. The use of electronic shift automatic transmissions is common on today's vehicles so an electric signal is all that is needed from the engine computer to make the transmission shift up.

Closing the throttle can be done two ways. One is to have a throttle controlling motor connected with the throttle cable. The throttle works normally until the wheels begin to spin; then the motor pushes the throttle pedal back up and closes the throttle. This method is usually noticed by drivers.

Another method is to have a second throttle system on the engine with it's own computer-controlled motor to operate it. On this system, when the wheels spin, the computer simply closes the motor driven throttle plates and the engine slows down. Because this system is not connected to the regular throttle, the driver feels nothing.

The final method of traction control is to slow the spinning wheel by applying the brake on that wheel. This method is usually used only at slower speeds. Excessive use of this method can quickly overheat the brakes, so most manufacturers program their computers to turn off the traction control if the brakes will be damaged.

Manufacturers design the traction control systems to be always on, but pressing a switch will turn the system off until it is manually turned on again or the next time vehicle is started. You may want to turn the system off if the road is completely covered in glare ice. This will permit the tires to spin and melt their way down to more solid traction surfaces.

The next generation of traction control is now appearing on many luxury vehicles. It integrates ABS, traction control, and vehicle stability systems into a complete package to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle while cornering, as well as stopping and accelerating. These systems are amazing in operation, but still can't overcome the laws of physics. Push the car too hard and you will end up off the road!

Finally, remember your vehicle's traction is only as good as the tires will permit. A good set of tires on a vehicle without traction control will still go further than a worn set of tires on a vehicle with it!

http://www.canadiand...k/at_000926.htm

[Williams]

Nice try, but for purposes of illegal traction control in F1, the brake method would probably be too easy to spot. It is much easier to hide things that are already under the control of the computer, like ignition timing and throttle.

[Blue]

Williams you should try to lose in more classy style –Like MH did?;)