41 replies to this topic

[LHoyte]

I am new to this forum and looking for information on Tim Birkin. Does anyone have any photos or info on Tim Birkin, especially his early racing years. My great grandfather was Percy Hoyte, Tim Birkins Chief engineer and I would love to know more about their relationship and their cars. I have attached an image of my Great grandfather and Tim Birkin in what is one of their early DFP cars. I would love to know more about the car in this photo. I believe it is a Doriot, Flandrin et Parant car with custom body. This photo was dated 1922 and I believe it is the first time it has ever been shown on the internet and is probably the earliest photo of Birkin in a racing car.

[RTH]

This is a previous thread which may be of some interest.

http://forums.autosp...et henry birkin


This gives an outlin of his life as well

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Henry_Birkin

Edited by RTH, 26 January 2010 - 12:47.

[David McKinney]

Great photo, LH

I wish you success in your quest

[LHoyte]

Thanks for the comments.
I have read the forum post on Birkin but badly want to see early photos of Birkin and hopefully my Great Grandfather. Family history and rumour suggests my Great Grandfather was a great engineer who Birkin had met during the first world war and Birkin had recognised my GGrandfathers skills and therefore employed him as chief engineer with regards to Birkin's racing career. I cannot afford to buy Birkins book "Full Throttle" but would love to know if my G-Grandfather is mentioned in it. Family rumour also suggested that my G-Grandfather (known as Percy "Pop" Hoyte) would on occasion ride in the car with Birkin early on in Birkins racing career to tune the engine by hand as Birkin drove. I would love to have all these facts substantiated by text or photographic proof and I could find out more about the two great men.

I had cleaned the original image up digitally and I have also used some artistic license in producing a coloured version of the photo which you can see below.



I am awaiting a higher DPI scan from my father who has the original before I really go to work cleaning the image up and colouring.

[RTH]

Wow, that is clever and very effective. That rear half of the body might have been wood a l teak brown colour or maybe painted green? The building behind would be wooden so a brownish or blackish hue ? That rug looks amazing . Birkin was obsessively patriotic throughout his life. The more ironic he should lose his life through blood poisoning caused by burning himself on the exhaust of the Maserati he had just got out of, after Bentley had closed down.
I have the book so will have to re-read it ! Do you have any family photographs or letters?

You might try posting this question on this forum below, they also have some very good people on the early 1900s

http://www.oldclassi...hpBB2/index.php

Edited by RTH, 26 January 2010 - 16:44.

[LHoyte]

Thanks RTH for the comments and pointers on colours. I am glad you liked the image. I did have to use some artistic license on that rug, the original black and white photo (see below) does show some sort of pattern but obviously the colours were an educated guess based on internet research of rugs in the 1920's.

I have edited the image to show the colouring you suggested and included the original scan so you can see the before and after (see below)



I am still waiting for my father to work out how to get his scanner working properly so I can get a higher resolution scan of thr original photo which I will work and post once completed.

If anyone has old pictures of Tim Birkin I would be happy to clean them up and colour them.

[RTH]

We will never know exactly how it all looked at the time, I am amazed what can be achieved by someone skilled in this work with what must be very sophisticated equipment.

[JB Miltonian]

Looking in the index for "Classic & Sportscar" magazine, I see that I have the August 1983 issue, which has a two page article on Birkin, written by Alain de Cadenet, and includes another picture of Birkin in the DFP. I also have the May 1995 issue with a five page article on Birkin written by Doug Nye. I'm afraid that neither of these mention your great grandfather.

[LHoyte]

Looking in the index for "Classic & Sportscar" magazine, I see that I have the August 1983 issue, which has a two page article on Birkin, written by Alain de Cadenet, and includes another picture of Birkin in the DFP. I also have the May 1995 issue with a five page article on Birkin written by Doug Nye. I'm afraid that neither of these mention your great grandfather.

Thanks for your help - I am looking into the Classic and Sportscar magazine website now but cant find the back issue listed. I will have to see if I can order a copy. Can you tell me if the car in the photo you mentioned is the same car as shown in my photo?

Edited by LHoyte, 26 January 2010 - 21:18.

[Paul Rochdale]

http://www.findagrav...p...d=13356429

[JB Miltonian]

Here is the picture, photo credit is unknown to me.

I can scan and send the article to you if you wish. PM me with an email address.

[fbarrett]

Mr. Hoyte:

Copies of Full Throttle are shown with prices as low as $21 at www.abebooks.com.

Frank

[RTH]

There is I am afraid no mention of Percy Hoyte in 'Full Throttle'. Birkin covers the entire period up to 1927 in the very first paragraph.
He mentions racing the DFP in 1921 at Brooklands , one incident when he was forced to stop because it had run the engines bearings ,which he believe saved him from overturning the car because on inspection as he got out he saw the spring shackle pins were broken and on the point of collapsing the cars suspension with likely catastrophic consequences. No reference to Percy Hoyte in the index either. After this he did not resume racing until 1927 with his brother Archie.

Interesting the picture caption above say mahogany planked bodywork so probably a dark brown if just in a french polished state.

Edited by RTH, 26 January 2010 - 23:24.

[D-Type]

According to Bill Boddy in The Sports Car Pocketbook,

... after the Armistice, Henry (later Sir Henry) Birkin made a few appearances there [Brooklands] with a D.F.P. with a remarkable streamlined body built of wooden planking by Saunders-Roe the aeroplane people.

At Brooklands in the twenties it was usual to carry a riding mechanic to attend to the car (I believe this practice was stopped following an accident that resulted in the death of Kaye Don's mechanic, for which he was jailed for manslaughter). So it is conceivable that Percy Hoyte was Henry Birkin's riding mechanic on occasion.

On a previous thread, which I can't find, someone posted a link to a website with many Brooklands pictures. Can anyone remember where?

Edited by D-Type, 28 January 2010 - 23:15.

[helioseism]

The opening post picture appears on page 44 of W.O. Bentley and The D.F.P., by Bruce H. Brown. The caption reads "Mr. Hoyte Senior, aged 28, standing beside the young Birkin, at Bennetts of Nottingham in 1919. As Tim Birkin's racing mechanic, he completely rebuilt and modified the DFP."

On page 45, the book also contains a picture of Percy Hoyte testing the car on the banking at Brooklands. Page 46 has a photo of Birkin in the car (wearing number 18) at the 1921 Easter Brooklands Meeting with the Vickers 'Consuta' single seat body. Page 47 has a photo of Birkin and the car with the caption "1920/21 DFP with 'Consuta' single seat body with Woolf Barbato's 8 litre Locomobile alongside". This one is a cropped version of the photo JB Miltonian posted.

I did not find any mention of Percy in the text, the names associated with Birkin's effort (his first foray into racing) are Lt. Col. Clive Gallop, Joby Bowles, and a Mr. Allen. Maybe digging around in the records of the 1921 Easter Brooklands Meeting would be fruitful.

[mikeC]

On a previous thread, which I can't find, someone posted a link to a website with many Brooklands pictures. can anyone remember where?

Probably here: http://www.austinharris.co.uk

[LHoyte]

Thanks to everyone, especially - JB Miltonian for the photo and helioseism for the confirmation of more photos of my great grandfather. Today is my 40th birthday and you have given me a great birthday present in passing on this info.

[Dutchy]

Probably here: http://www.austinharris.co.uk

Or this http://www.brooklandsarchives.com/

[P0wderf1nger]

At Brooklands in the twenties it was usual to carry a riding mechanic to attend to the car (I believe this practice was stopped following an accident that resulted in the death of Kaye Don's mechanic, for which he was jailed for manslaughter). So it is conceivable that Percy Hoyte was henry Birkin's riding mechanic on occasion.

I've heard a different story about the ban on riding mechanics, but rather than take this lovely Birkin / Hoyte thread way OT, I'll start another one!

Rgds

Paul

[LHoyte]

Quick message to thank everyone for their assistance with my research into Tim Birkin and my great grand father.
I have now decided that as my great grandfatehr stripped and rebuilt the DFP for Sir Tim I will clean and colour and try and build as good a record of the DFP1 that my grandfather worked so hard on. i will and to post my own going work at reproducing the photos I have of Birkins DFP1 and maybe if I get the time I will build a CGI model of ther car.

Here is my work so far -

[LHoyte]

Just a quick update to thank everyone with their help in getting me the info on Sir Henry Birkin and my great grandfather that I so dearly desired. I now have a copy of W.O. Bentley and the D.F.P and using this and teh info you guys supplied I am slowly trying to build a CGI mockup of the DFP built by my great granfather and raced by Henry Birk.

Here is the initial rendering - I will post more as I add more detail - I~f eanyone knows of anywhere in the image which is wrong please let me know.

Edited by LHoyte, 11 February 2010 - 21:25.

[Rob G]

Here is the initial rendering - I will post more as I add more detail - I~f eanyone knows of anywhere in the image which is wrong please let me know.

It's looking really good so far. If I had to nitpick, I'd say that the exhaust pipe is too long and too level; it looks as though it had a bit of rake to it, with the tail end of it raised so that it was just about dead even with the center of the tail of the bodyshell. However, this is the first time I've ever seen this car so you'll have to take my recommendation with a grain of salt.

[LHoyte]

Hi Rob C - After taking a look at all the photos I have of this car you are definately correct about the exhaust pipe length but I am not sure about teh angle. The photots I have do show it looking level but I am aware that the photo I retouched suggests that the exhaust is raised at its end. Anyway the problem I having right now is working out how the rear suspension was put together.

[mikeC]

... Anyway the problem I having right now is working out how the rear suspension was put together.

I am not familiar with the DFP, so I may be wrong, but it looks like the rear suspension is a semi-canterlever system, a bit like this:



You also need to add the distinctive upsweep to the rear chassis

[LHoyte]

Thanks mikeC

Its info like that which in invaluable to me as I have no idea how these old cars were put togetehr.

Here is the latest rendering with your suspension added.

[mikeC]

Hmmm... sort of!
If you look at your photo in Post 20, you will see the chassis side rail rises at quite a steep angle, with two large holes in it; It would not then continue on down as in your latest rendering, but would probably stop with a closing cross-member on a line with the back axle. I would suggest the spring itself needs to made more substantial, too.

[Marticelli]

There is also a well known picture of this car which shows it after it had been road registered and taxed so presumably it was driven by Birkin to and from Brooklands. The registration, AU2580, is a Nottingham one of about 1919 or 1920, and there are also no wheel discs obscuring the rear suspension. It seems to have acquired some additional streamlining around the rear spring mounts and possibly an additional muffler on the tailpipe... The mahogany planked bodywork was apparently made by Vickers like contemporary seaplane floats, using the Saro Consuta method (ie sewn together with copper wire). Saro, aka Saunders Roe, were the preminent seaplane builders at the time.

[Marticelli]

I forgot to mention that the Nottingham public record office holds some of the Nottinghamshire registration records so may be able to tell you more about this car's original registration. If this fails, the Kithead Trust at Droitwich Spa are also credited with holding the AU records from 1921 on. One way or another you may be able to confirm its date of registration and also the name of the first owner, which is very likely to be Birkin, as he was the son of a wealthy Nottingham family.

Incidentally Wikipedia gives the date of his early racing at Brooklands as 1921, and Boddy supports this view, but after that season in the DFP, he didn't reappear until the late twenties due to other commitments which prevented him racing.

[D-Type]

Come to think of it, does anybody know Bill Boddy's address so L Hoyte can contact him directly rather than simply sending a letter c/o Motor Sport? I'm sure a request for information would elicit a response.

[D-Type]

I've been sent Bill Boddy's address: W Boddy, Llwynbarried Hall, Nantmel, Llandrindod Wells, Powys, LD1 6EW (as it is listed in the current VCC and VSCC lists I assume it is OK to post it here).

If the name doesn't mean anything to you, LHoyte, he is the "founder editor" of Motor Sport magazine and the author of several books on Brooklands, including the definitive History of Brooklands Motor Course and he is the expert on all things Brooklands-related.

[LHoyte]

Thanks again everyone - great leads for me to follow and great info. I have been away for a few days hence the lack of response - my appologies for that. I realised once I did the last rendering that it was wrong and I am in the process of correcting this and will then chase up the cars registration and contatc Bill Boddy.

Once again thanks eveyone

[LHoyte]

Oh - one thing I forgot to mention

I have spoken with my father who has the original photo I scanned and starte dthis topic with. He informs me that on the back of the photo its is dated 1921. The photo seems to be the exact same photo (it has the same crease damage) printed in W.O. Bentley and the DFP but in that book it is dated 1919. My father is looking into how the author of W.O. Bentley and the DFP came to have a copy of the very photo my father owns but best guess is the author obtained a copy from my fathers uncle before my father received the original from his uncle.

[T54]

Tim Birkin was also involved with some of the first miniature electric racing cars. Here is an extract of my soon-to-be-published book on the history of that hobby:

...Meanwhile in 1932, Englishman Patrick Kennedy patented another rail-racing system using a center raised rail, on each side of which the models of a Bugatti type 35 and other rather crude model cars collected the operating current. He built a 6-lane track at his home to demonstrate the concept. The cars were independently controlled and driven by 6-volt DC motors. Patrick Kennedy was the brother in law of Bertie Kensington-Moir ( the Bentley racing team manager ), and in 1932, Sir Henry "Tim" Birkin, one of the famous "Bentley Boys" along with Captain Wolf Barnato and who financed and developed the famous supercharged Bentley racing automobiles, visited Kennedy at his home, driving the little cars. This was the subject of a story in the Autocar, one of the top British automotive magazines. Patrick Kennedy patented his "Race Game Apparatus" in the USA on March 16, 1933 and in the UK on the May 12, 1932. The US patent is # 1999052 and is quoted in several subsequent patent applications. besides this Kennedy actually ran what is believe to be the world's first commercial raceway at Leicester Square, as early as 1930. It is not known if there was more than one track built, brought to other locations by Kennedy. Again, this only lasted so long before it ended, but amazingly several of the actual cars survived and are now in the United States in Bernard Sampson's private museum...

[Marticelli]

Fascinating to see the picture of early electric rail racers... But interesting to note that they are all left hand drive whereas of course all full size Bugattis as far as I am aware are rhd, as were many early French cars destined to be driven on the right side of the road... Another thread topic perhaps?

[paulhooft]

Tim Birkin was also involved with some of the first miniature electric racing cars. Here is an extract of my soon-to-be-published book on the history of that hobby:

A pity that the picture is damaged:
do you have a better scan of it?
Paul

[David McKinney]

A pity that the picture is damaged:
do you have a better scan of it?
Paul

It's probably his watermark, to stop people lifting it without authorisation

[fuzzi]

As an aside the bloke in the three-piece suit looks like Tommy Wisdom.

[paulhooft]

I don't think thi is some thing about copyright, the picture is very old...
and not that important....
Surprise me!!!
Paul

[T54]

The fellow next to Birkin is the actual creator of the whole mess, Patrick Kennedy.
I do not have a better picture at this time, sorry.

The little Bugattis were hand built of course and ran on AC voltage. Incredibly some of them have survived!
Many other British auto-racing luminaries were involved at one time or another with model racing cars...

[David McKinney]

I don't think thi is some thing about copyright, the picture is very old...
and not that important....
Surprise me!!!

If I buy the copyright to an original 1935 George Monkhouse photo - which, if available, would cost me a fortune - I'd certainly make sure no-one would be able to use it without my permission - or without paying me a suitabe reproduction fee

[P0wderf1nger]

The text in the bottom right hand corner tells you where the image came from - Motor Sport.
Isn't it from the interview with the ghost-writer of 'Full Throttle', published about three years ago?

[LHoyte]

The blue at the bottom of the photo of Tim Birkin and the electric slot racing cars is a fault in the image file when it was uploaded or in the original image file. I have seen this many times before.