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How many Cooper T51s came to Australia?


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#1 JimBradshaw

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 06:45

I have have often wondered, both as a spectator and, later, as a reader of the Blanden book, about how many Cooper T51's actually came to HM's Southern Realm.

My take, based on my spectating experience and from reading the mags of the time is as follows:

Stan Jones - the last T51 built ? ..2.5 litre ..active in the last part of 1960 and 1961 ..blew up at Calder January 1962..later appeared that year as a 2.2 =1

Bill Patterson - an early car, 2 litre, followed by full blown 2.5 car , both cars later 2.5 , the spare driven by Doug Whiteford, but later sold to John Brindley in 2 litre form...see Ch 9 Sandown somersault. ..which car did GWP flip at Lakeside? = 2

Bib Stillwell - his own import, the 2.2 in which he contested the 1960 Gold Star....later sold to Tom Wilson of Wangarratta =1
The second car, the ex-Victa Mckay, 2 litre car hired to Davison for the 1961 AGP, later sold to Bryan Thompson of Shepparton =1

Alec Mildren - the brilliant Cooper Maserati ..so much better than the euro efforts... =1
is the Willis Mildren Cooper a replica?

Yohn Youl - a genuine 2.2 T51, lucky not to be destroyed at Sandown March 1962 =1

Austin Miller - a genuine 2.2 T51, latter bastardised with a Corvette engine =1

Noel Hall - was it a T51?
Arnold Glass - Cooper Maserati - was it a T51?

By my tally, we had eight (8) genuine T51's here ..


I am not wishing to be contreversial .. is just my take..

I love T51's

JB

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 11:11

Yeah Stan...

The Dick Willis 'Mousetrap Cooper' is a genuine replica.

#3 David McKinney

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 11:21

I think it was more like this:
•Stillwell's red and yellow car, later to Jones, Miller etc, including with Corvette engine
•Stillwell's darker red car, also raced by Davison (1st 1961 AGP) and Whiteford, later Tom Wilson and others
•The Victa car, which also went to Stillwell, then to Bryan Thomson
•Stillwell's ex-works 2.5, later to the Sternbergs in Tasmania
•Patterson's first car, crashed at Lakeside 1961 (The car Brindley raced was an earlier model)
•Patterson's replacement car, apparently ex-works via either Atkins or Tuck team
•Noel Hall's, destroyed in 1961 but parts used for his 2.2 Rennmax-Climax
•Mildren's Maserati-powered car, dismantled to create the Mildren-Maserati sportscsr, though Mildren later built a replica
•Jones's light blue 1960 car, later to the Sternbergs
•Youl's 1960 car, which also went to (or stayed in) Tasmania (Hobden, Curran etc)

A total of ten cars





#4 David Shaw

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 11:37

I am probably off-course here, as it is a very confusing subject for me, but wasn't there also an early-build car that was used by the works that was driven by Ron Flockhart in the early stages of the 1961 "Tasman" events and later by Roy Salvadori?

Aparently it was sold to David McKay after the internationals had left and he drove it in the 1961 races before it was sold to Greg Cusack prior to the '62 season.

#5 David McKinney

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 12:21

How did I miss that?

You're quite right David, though I'm pretty sure Cusack didn't buy it. When McKay got the T53 for 1962, Scuderia Veloce continued to enter the T51 for Cusack and Amon, the latter taking it to NZ, where it was sold (and remains to this very day)

Make it 11 then

#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 12:55

I'd reckon you're quite right about that ownership question, David...

Scuderia Veloce (David McKay and Bob Atkin) would have retained ownership during the time Cusack and Amon drove the car.

Cusack may have owned the Lola when he drove it under SV colours, but I don't know about that. He certainly owned his Brabhams and ran them under the SV umbrella, while the Elfins I'm not sure about at all. They could possibly have been 'works' cars on loan... at least for a time. The Lotus 23 was his, upgraded after purchase from the Geoghegans.

#7 JimBradshaw

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 23:00

I think it was more like this:
•Stillwell's red and yellow car, later to Jones, Miller etc, including with Corvette engine
•Stillwell's darker red car, also raced by Davison (1st 1961 AGP) and Whiteford, later Tom Wilson and others
•The Victa car, which also went to Stillwell, then to Bryan Thomson
•Stillwell's ex-works 2.5, later to the Sternbergs in Tasmania
•Patterson's first car, crashed at Lakeside 1961 (The car Brindley raced was an earlier model)
•Patterson's replacement car, apparently ex-works via either Atkins or Tuck team
•Noel Hall's, destroyed in 1961 but parts used for his 2.2 Rennmax-Climax
•Mildren's Maserati-powered car, dismantled to create the Mildren-Maserati sportscsr, though Mildren later built a replica
•Jones's light blue 1960 car, later to the Sternbergs
•Youl's 1960 car, which also went to (or stayed in) Tasmania (Hobden, Curran etc)

A total of ten cars


Ray and David

You are quite right about the Mckay car, an obvious oversight on my part. In fact I remember reading in Mckay's last book of how he took delivery of the car after the Hume Weir meeting of 1961 and how excited he was to look in his car's rear vision mirror and to see an ex-works 2.5 litre T51 lit by tow car's the tail lights on his trailer - he kept pinching himself to make sure he wasnt dreaming!

However, I disagree on the Patterson cars - I have always thought Patterson had only two T51's - the Lakeside car and then the ex-works team spare car.

Brindley's car was definitely an ex-Patterson T51 and still retained the Patterson white and blue livery.

My assumption was that, after the early 1961 Lakeside crash, Patterson repaired the car, but in the meantime, had replaced it with the ex-works 2.5 car and subsequently Whiteford drove the early car throughout 1961 and at the opening Sandown meeting of March 1962 . Thereafter it was sold to Brindley who drove the car in 1962 and 1963 at Sandown and Calder, still in the Patterson colours.

I doubt very much if Patterson would have bought a spare car just for the sake of it when he had the ex-works car - that was more of a Stillwell trait.

The interesting point is, if I am correct, with my assumption, given Brindley's somersault on Sandown's main straight in 1962/63 (?), it means that this particular T51 performed ariel acrobatics twice - fortunately with no real damage to either driver on each occasion

By the way, David, is this the same John Brindley who drove, I think , a Lotus 23 , in historics in the UK in the 80's and who, I also think, is now deceased?

JB

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 23:07

One point I disagree with David, though it might be a matter of loose wording...

The Mildren replica, the 'Mousetrap Cooper', wasn't built after the construction of the Mildren Maserati. Dick Willis can probably give a lot more detail on this.

#9 David McKinney

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 23:09

Yes, John Brindley returned to the UK and historic racing, most notably in Can-Am McLarens

You and I agree that Patterson had only two T51s

Brindley's Cooper may have been white and blue, as was Patterson's T43. Do you have any particular reason for thinking it wasn't the T43 that Brindley raced?

Edited by David McKinney, 31 January 2010 - 23:10.


#10 JimBradshaw

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 23:40

Yes, John Brindley returned to the UK and historic racing, most notably in Can-Am McLarens

You and I agree that Patterson had only two T51s

Brindley's Cooper may have been white and blue, as was Patterson's T43. Do you have any particular reason for thinking it wasn't the T43 that Brindley raced?


David,

I saw the car several times throughout that period both on the track, Sandown and Calder and in the Calder pits, plus I have a photograph of it - which i will endeavour to find - it was definitely a T51 and was definitely ex-Patterson. The timing is also correct, that is, Whiteford never appeared in the spare Patterson T51 it after March 1962 but Brindley appeared at Calder in an ex-Patterson T51 in April or May 1962.

JB

#11 cooper997

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 09:21

I'm pretty much with David Shaw in that Coopers raced in Australia are very confusing. Only recently I made a comment on Patterson Coopers and ended up, almost to my own embarrassment, with some surprise correspondence from a man I consider one of Australia's best motor racing historians. Anyway, he set the scene and I went digging.

Having gone through a pile of old, mostly unidentified Cooper photos I had gathering dust. There was some suitable candidates as Patterson Coopers. This started the paper chase of race programmes and old magazines.

It turns out we may well have both learnt a bit. One photo showed a T51 at a very early Sandown with no fence on the outside of the run from Peters Corner to the back straight. That under magnifying glass I could detect a faint striping akin to Patto colours. It was #15 and in the May 20th 1962 Sandown programme (the second Sandown meeting). It relates to John Brindley.

Then there was 4 photos of the same driver in the same car at Calder with #7 on it. They related to the September 9th 1962 meeting and by this stage the light blue Patto striping (despite being B&W photos) had changed to a metallic colour. The programme states "7 Hilltop Autos John Brindley Cooper white / gold 2200." Covering this event the Oct 62 Autosportman Calder report mentions an Elfin FJ (Granton Harrison) had mounted the rear of Brindley's car during this meeting.

The following weekend on September 16th it was Sandown’s turn again. With the Oct 62 Autosportsman also having a report for this, the third Sandown meeting. It also happens to have a bit on Brindley crashing the #7 car in the minor racing car event of the day - Event 9, 3 lap - Owens and Dixon Racing Car Handicap. Basically describing that he was trying to get in the money right on the chequered flag. He passed some back markers, but ran wide. Then had to swerve sharply, in the process putting his rear wheel over the front of another competitor. The final sentence on the Brindley crash stating, "The car must be very nearly a complete write-off."

A young Chris Amon in the SV Cooper was also an entry at this meeting, taking forth in the Event 6, 30 lap - Victorian Road Racing Championship Gold Star race.

Anyway out of all this there are indeed 2 different Patto T51’s that have slight variations in the bodywork. With the Brindley car being the one Patto crashed at Lakeside in July 1961.

No wonder it gets confusing.

Stephen


#12 David McKinney

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 10:27

Jim, Stephen

You guys were in Australia at the time, and I wasn't

But I do know it's not easy to tell a T43 from a T51 (or a T45), either from photographs or trackside. And I also know the timing fits neatly for Brindley to have the first of the Patto T51s, but the same timing fits just as neatly with Patto's last entry of his T43.

I believe that when Murray Richards bought Patto's second T51 in 1988, he also got the remains of the earlier T51, which Patto had kept all that time

I hope some of the Australian Cooper experts can join the discussion (if they're back from NZ yet)

#13 Barry Boor

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 11:09

Not wishing to intrude on a bit Australasian incest - but didn't the T.51 have a tail fin? Surely not hard to differentiate between that and a T.43 or a T.45.

Now, T.43 and T.45, that's another matter.

#14 David Shaw

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 12:04

Not wishing to intrude on a bit Australasian incest - but didn't the T.51 have a tail fin? Surely not hard to differentiate between that and a T.43 or a T.45.

Now, T.43 and T.45, that's another matter.


AFAIK it was the T53 that had the long dorsal fin.


#15 cooper997

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 12:26

Jim, Stephen

I believe that when Murray Richards bought Patto's second T51 in 1988, he also got the remains of the earlier T51, which Patto had kept all that time


David,

I wish I was there. I enjoy Cooper racing cars and collect trivia relating to them. But that doesn't make them any less confusing, as previously mentioned.

What you write about Murray's acquisition from Patto is basically what I was stating when my comment came to the attention of the Australian motor racing historian (I would use his name, but I'm not sure how far he wants to be drawn in to this). It should be easy enough to find my comment, Patto only passed away 3 weeks ago.

Out of this I'm told the ex Stillwell/Patterson T43 is apparently already accounted for and in the hands of a long time owner. Who is still to restore the car. I have a photo of Patto sitting in what I think is the T43 at Phillip Island's startline. It doesn't have the vertical slot in the RH side bodywork, like later cars. And do the earlier cars have a slightly shallower nose opening?

So I quess all we need to do is try to find some decent Lakeside photos from July 1961 to help clear up some history. Even better if there's some of the damaged car to determine how bad it was.

What time is Dick's plane due.

Stephen

#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 21:02

To Sydney or Coffs?

This is indeed fascinating and I'm only sorry I don't have documentation for this period to follow it through. I guess it's Graham about whom you speak?

#17 Dick Willis

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 21:56

Hi All, got back last night but arose this morning early still on NZ time !

A couple of quick comments off the top of my head, my car was built 1959/60 by Mildrens team using a lot of spare bits they had accumulated ( most of the mechanicals ) and an Allan Standfield body and chassis, built in his fathers mousetrap factory at Mascot, hence the nickname.

In NZ it was comprehensively blown away with its 2 litre engine, by the Brits with their 2.5 litre cars, no wonder everyone in Aust was scrambling to be the first to get a 2.5 in 1960, Stillwell won that race. We had a disaster on the first day in NZ and had to change the head gasket, no easy job on an FPF, anyway it created a bit of a sideshow with all the spectators watching this old bloke cutting out a head gasket with a pair of scissors out of his wifes handbag. Anyway after a couple of other problems it all held together and despite several strong challenges it proved to be the best of the rest apart from the the 8C 35 Alfa of Peter Greenfield which had too much grunt and was EXTREMELY well driven, I must look up the thread on the 8C 35's, anyone know how far back it is ?

Back to the T51's, I recently saw an excellent pic of Patto's crashed Cooper at Lakeside 1961, it is on the Brier Thomas discs that Elaine Hamilton is selling so I can't post it here, my understanding is that it is the car that Murray Richards had started to rebuild. Murray of course sold the later Patto T51 to Rod Jolley who was in NZ and has asked me to do some more research on it, some of which has already been mentioned above but can anyone be more specific as to who Patto bought it from ( a 1961 Modern Motor article on it says he bought it from a private team ) and when the works had it who drove it and where and when.

#18 David McKinney

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 22:54

... can anyone be more specific as to who Patto bought it from ( a 1961 Modern Motor article on it says he bought it from a private team ) and when the works had it who drove it and where and when.

I've recently been going heavily into which works T51 went where (again :) ) and can't decide whether the car in question had passed through the hands of C T Atkins or Fred Tuck. There seems to have been an awful lot of renumbering of cars in the 12 months from about August 1959, and these two - ignoring quoted numbers - seem equally likely candidates for the Patterson/Jolley car


#19 JimBradshaw

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 02:11

David,

I wish I was there. I enjoy Cooper racing cars and collect trivia relating to them. But that doesn't make them any less confusing, as previously mentioned.

What you write about Murray's acquisition from Patto is basically what I was stating when my comment came to the attention of the Australian motor racing historian (I would use his name, but I'm not sure how far he wants to be drawn in to this). It should be easy enough to find my comment, Patto only passed away 3 weeks ago.

Out of this I'm told the ex Stillwell/Patterson T43 is apparently already accounted for and in the hands of a long time owner. Who is still to restore the car. I have a photo of Patto sitting in what I think is the T43 at Phillip Island's startline. It doesn't have the vertical slot in the RH side bodywork, like later cars. And do the earlier cars have a slightly shallower nose opening?

So I quess all we need to do is try to find some decent Lakeside photos from July 1961 to help clear up some history. Even better if there's some of the damaged car to determine how bad it was.

What time is Dick's plane due.

Stephen



i habe dug put some period photos of John Brindley in teh car in question , poor quality, taken by an over-enthusiastic teenager.

The first picture shows the car, still in Patterson colours, at Sandown in May 1962. The second picture shows the car , now with a metallic boronze in place of the Patterson blue, at Calder later in 1962 - as mentioned by Stephen.

David, there is no doubt that the car is a T51 and I tihnk it solves the Patterson T51 issues.

URL=http://img682.imageshack.us/i/pic0004yl.jpg/]Posted Image[/URL]

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#20 JimBradshaw

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 02:14

I've recently been going heavily into which works T51 went where (again :) ) and can't decide whether the car in question had passed through the hands of C T Atkins or Fred Tuck. There seems to have been an awful lot of renumbering of cars in the 12 months from about August 1959, and these two - ignoring quoted numbers - seem equally likely candidates for the Patterson/Jolley car


Can somebody please explain to me how to post pictures to this forum?

JB

#21 David Shaw

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 07:12

It seems that I need to clean up some errors on my Gold Star website.

Blanden mentions that Patterson's original T51 was put out of action at Lakeside in July, 1961. It also states that its replacement (which according to him bore F2/5/57) made its debut at Longford in March 62.

Which car did Patterson use to ensure his Gold Star at Caversham in August 61 and the AGP at Mallala in October? My first thoughts are that it was one that Bib had sitting in the shed.

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 07:45

Wasn't Davo driving one of Bib's?

I'm sure he was...

#23 David Shaw

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 07:49

Wasn't Davo driving one of Bib's?

I'm sure he was...

It appears to me that Bib's garage was a bit like a magician's hat at the time, no matter how many you pulled out there was always something in there.

#24 Dick Willis

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 07:54

It seems that I need to clean up some errors on my Gold Star website.

Blanden mentions that Patterson's original T51 was put out of action at Lakeside in July, 1961. It also states that its replacement (which according to him bore F2/5/57) made its debut at Longford in March 62.

Which car did Patterson use to ensure his Gold Star at Caversham in August 61 and the AGP at Mallala in October? My first thoughts are that it was one that Bib had sitting in the shed.


Patterson's 1961 car was the "new" one he bought from a UK team complete with 2.5 Climax and he used it to win the 1961 Gold Star, this is the car which Murray Richards bought off Patterson about 20 years ago and sold it to Rod Jolley in the UK, it raced in the Bruce McLaren Festival last weekend. The Lakeside car he bought new ex works and it preceded his 1961 car. There is an article in Modern Motor, July 1961 in which Patterson states it had a five speed gearbox, any comments anyone ?

#25 David Shaw

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 08:05

Patterson's 1961 car was the "new" one he bought from a UK team complete with 2.5 Climax and he used it to win the 1961 Gold Star, this is the car which Murray Richards bought off Patterson about 20 years ago and sold it to Rod Jolley in the UK, it raced in the Bruce McLaren Festival last weekend. The Lakeside car he bought new ex works and it preceded his 1961 car. There is an article in Modern Motor, July 1961 in which Patterson states it had a five speed gearbox, any comments anyone ?


So to get the story straight, he crashed his T51 on July 16, and on August 12 he was able to win the WA round of the Gold Star Championship when he was a Melbourne resident?

Am I wrong in thinking that a four week time frame is not enough to get an ex-works car landed in Fremantle from the UK, and out through Customs and off to Caversham to practice and win the race? (although he was the only Eastern Stater to compete so the competition wasn't as fierce)


#26 cooper997

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 08:16


Ray,
You could be right.



Now that Dick has had a chance to add to this thread, I'm just grateful I haven't been leading you guys on a wild goose chase.

It's like finding a needle in a haystack, but I went for a random paper chase again and the following was revealed.

AMS Sept 1960 - Bib Stillwell had his "current production series" 2 litre Cooper-Climax T51 for sale. It's mentioned as being new Oct 1959. But there's also a snippet attributed to 'MK' (Mike Kable) - stating that Stillwell ran a 2.2 Climax at the Lowood (12/6/60) AGP meeting. There's also another bit on Bib having just got back from the UK. With very little offerings in way of the F1 category, "a 2.5 litre Cooper is absolutely out of the question." It does however mention Aston Martin's... and Cooper-Monacos.

AMS Oct 1960 - This time Bill Patterson has his 2 litre "Cooper-Climax F1" for sale. £2,990 and it's yours! So I'm hoping to time travel back and purchase it at this price. Because it's the only way I'll ever own one! If the photo is accurate to the car for sale this must surely be the elusive T43 and it shows it from the LH side (my photo shows the RH side). The engine cover has the mesh-type bulged section to keep the rocks out and no fuel filler neck to the left of the driving position. Whereas the car in the photos that I beleive is Brindley's ex Patto T51 (mentioned earlier in this thread) doesn't have mesh on the engine cover, it has a fuel filler neck at the driver's left and it also has a bigger rear suspension opening in the bodywork.

The same issue also has a report on Phillip Island Sept 18th, 1960 Victorian Road Racing Gold Star meeting. It mentions Stan Jones having his new F1 Cooper and Stillwell, Miller and Patterson also in F1 Coopers. Patto won, followed by Stillwell & Jones. The lone Patto Cooper photo shown in the report, is as he has just gone past the chequered flag and you can see the engine cover bulge without mesh.

Still on the Oct 1960 issue and Sept 4th, 1960 Lowood Qld Road Racing Championship Gold Star is reported. Alec Mildren won this in his Cooper-Maserati. From Stillwell - Cooper Climax, Davo in the Aston and Patto in his Cooper-Climax. There's also a piece of Arnold Glass having landed his Cooper-Maserati during the month.

Jumping to AMS Dec 60/Jan 61 (single issue) - Arnold Glass was out testing his BRG & White Cooper-Maserati at a still incomplete Warwick Farm test day on Nov 6th (remembering WF didn't have it's first meeting until Dec 18th, 1960). While at the test day, Tom Brabham revealed to Kable that Bib Stillwell was the fortunate one to acquire son, Jack's 1960 Bathurst Cooper. Meaning this was the first 2.5 Cooper in Australia under private ownership (even though B.S Stillwell & Co Pty Ltd were probably the real owner). It appears Brabham senior also let the cat out of the bag in that, "Bill Patterson had scored a 2.5 Cooper in Britain and was having it brought out post haste." But it doesn't reveal from who.

Quickly, one completely off topic for Ray. You mentioned Dunedoo the other day. There's a brief snippet on the Dunedoo District Car Club holding their inaugural meeting - Oct 9th, 1960.

That's enough for the moment.

Stephen

#27 David Shaw

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 08:36

Wasn't Davo driving one of Bib's?

I'm sure he was...


Davo won the AGP at Mallala in Bib's T51 which I have listed as F2/18/59. Bib drove his newly landed T53.

#28 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 12:23

Originally posted by cooper997
.....one completely off topic for Ray. You mentioned Dunedoo the other day. There's a brief snippet on the Dunedoo District Car Club holding their inaugural meeting - Oct 9th, 1960.


Well, Uncle Teddy would have been there...

You've dug up a lot of stuff, it's hard to digest it all really. Mike isn't around any more to lend a hand, either.

#29 David McKinney

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 12:54

Stephen

Your comparison of T43 and Brindley photos is convincing!

I suppose the only thing that would save me now would be if the Brindley photo is miscaptioned, and is really Patterson :)

#30 Isetta

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 15:57

Not an Australian connection but because Jim loves T51s. They keep turning up:

http://www.tamesidea...revives_60s_car

#31 David McKinney

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 17:10

There might be more of an Australian connection than you think, Isetta

When the car was advertised about ten years it was said to have been sold to Australia, with 2.5 engine, in 1961. That doesn't fit with anything I know, bit stranger things have happened :)

#32 David Shaw

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 20:05

I've recently been going heavily into which works T51 went where (again :) ) and can't decide whether the car in question had passed through the hands of C T Atkins or Fred Tuck. There seems to have been an awful lot of renumbering of cars in the 12 months from about August 1959, and these two - ignoring quoted numbers - seem equally likely candidates for the Patterson/Jolley car


This photo may be of some help, it was posted by Terry Walker in another thread and is apparently a BP publicity shot taken at Caversham in 1961. I would say this would have to be the 1961 Gold Star meeting where his new car made its debut, as I can't find him running there in 59 or 60 and by the 62 AGP he was in the T53.

It also fits with the number I have listed for him in the 1961 Caversham Gold Star meeting.

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#33 JimBradshaw

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 20:50

Stephen

Your comparison of T43 and Brindley photos is convincing!

I suppose the only thing that would save me now would be if the Brindley photo is miscaptioned, and is really Patterson :)


I think the Patterson T51 issues are about resolved.

Clearly the driver in my photgraphs is John Brindley whose appearance is nothng like that of the chubby aggressive space-helmeted Patterson. This is particularly so given I recall seeing, and have a photograph of, Patterson in his later car in the same race!

The only mystery remaining to me is when did the full-blown ex-works car appear?

I believe Patterson raced the later car at Longford and at Easter Bathurst in 1961 and if I am correct, why was he driving the second-string car at Lakeside as late as July 1961? Maybe his first-string car was being prepared for Caversham?

I can't believe he would have just bought a T51 as late as mid-1961, especially given that Bib was about to appear in a 2.5 T53 lowline.

Very subjectively, I always thought the 2 cars were strangely different visually, with the later car somehow having a more meatier, less F2 appearance, than the first car. They are both seen together in the 50 year AGP book at the start of the 1961 event.

JB

#34 D-Type

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 20:52

Can somebody please explain to me how to post pictures to this forum?

JB

I haven't done it but I understand that if you follow the instructions in the sticky "ATTENTION EVERYONE: How to post your images" it is actually quite straightforward. There is a lot of dross you have to wade through to find the instructions though.

Edited by D-Type, 02 February 2010 - 20:54.


#35 JimBradshaw

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 04:11

I haven't done it but I understand that if you follow the instructions in the sticky "ATTENTION EVERYONE: How to post your images" it is actually quite straightforward. There is a lot of dross you have to wade through to find the instructions though.



Thanks D Type..I did as you siggested before your reply..but thank you for making the effort.

JB

#36 JimBradshaw

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 05:12

Not an Australian connection but because Jim loves T51s. They keep turning up:

http://www.tamesidea...revives_60s_car


Hi Isetta,

Thanks for your posting - it got to me in three ways,

One - I was a resident of Chesire - Knutsford, High Leigh and Moulton - back in the 70's

Two - I am a huge fan of the flying dentist - Tony Brooks - I put him almost in the Moss/Fangio category - well not almost, I do actually

Three _ as you say - I love T51's


JB

#37 cooper997

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 11:27

Ray,
Don't worry the whole Cooper history in Australia is difficult to digest - it's a bl**dy great jigsaw with so many pieces missing. The snippets from the 3 issues I've mentioned are just the tip of the iceberg.

It was just as confusing back in the day. This is from Mike Kable in AMS Feb 61, "Bib Stillwell finally put me right on all this Cooper business. The red car he used at WF comprised Brab's 2.5 Bathurst motor in another chassis. Doug Whiteford drove what virtually was the original Victa car. Brab's chassis now houses a brand-new 2 litre motor and this last-named lot is for sale." Then it goes on about Stillwell having signed with David Brown to drive a lightweight DBR1/300 at Ardmore.

David,
Jim's colour photos in post #19 are showing the same car and driver combination (with the same helmet). At the same 2 events as my 5 b&w photos, that I've previously mentioned. Despite only #5 visible in Jim's Sandown photo the car number is actually #15. John Brindley's entry at the May 20th, 1962 Sandown going by the programme. Hopefully Jim can keep digging and see if he has a photo from Sept 16th, 1962 Sandown, either before or after the crash. Although given that he has previously mentioned Channel 9 footage, maybe he wasn't at this meeting.

I don't know whether anybody noticed, but in my last post I mentioned how Tom Brabham had let the cat out of the bag to Mike Kable on Nov 6th, 1960, "Bill Patterson had scored a 2.5 Cooper in Britain and was having it brought out post haste." A bit more digging and in the Dec 18th, 1960 Warwick Farm programme, there is the following. "Bill Patterson (No9) If his 2 1/2-litre Cooper-Climax has not arrived from England, Bill will drive the white 2.2 Cooper in which he relentlessly chased Brabham at Mt Panorama. What a performance that was!" The report for this rain-soaked Warwick Farm opener is in AMS Feb 61 and there is a mention of "...Bill Patterson 2.4 Cooper..." A mere one of 11 assorted Coopers present - 2 with Maserati power & 9 with Climax.

So it depends on interpretation of the above whether it was the new car. I think we can put down Jan 29th, 1961 as a pretty safe bet for the debut of the second Patterson T51. This was the first Warwick Farm International '100' meeting. The programme quotes him with a 2496cc engine. Exactly the same as Brabham & Stillwell's listings. But Flockhart's is quoted as 2460cc.

Stephen



#38 David Shaw

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 11:33

So his inversion at Lakeside in July 1961 was possibly the new car? I'll pass on this one and leave more informed voices to comment.

#39 Allen Brown

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 17:43

David has only just drawn my attention to this thread and I'm very glad he did. Fascinating stuff. I will try to marshal my thoughts and add anything that I can but I doubt that I'll have anything you don't already know.

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#40 David McKinney

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 17:53

David has only just drawn my attention to this thread

David Shaw?


#41 David Shaw

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 23:52

David Shaw?


Oh no! Looks like we have a third one involved. :confused:


#42 David McKinney

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:00

No, it was me

It's just that his post followed yours, and could have been presumed to have been the prompt :)

#43 David Shaw

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:31

I don't know whether anybody noticed, but in my last post I mentioned how Tom Brabham had let the cat out of the bag to Mike Kable on Nov 6th, 1960, "Bill Patterson had scored a 2.5 Cooper in Britain and was having it brought out post haste." A bit more digging and in the Dec 18th, 1960 Warwick Farm programme, there is the following. "Bill Patterson (No9) If his 2 1/2-litre Cooper-Climax has not arrived from England, Bill will drive the white 2.2 Cooper in which he relentlessly chased Brabham at Mt Panorama. What a performance that was!" The report for this rain-soaked Warwick Farm opener is in AMS Feb 61 and there is a mention of "...Bill Patterson 2.4 Cooper..." A mere one of 11 assorted Coopers present - 2 with Maserati power & 9 with Climax.

So it depends on interpretation of the above whether it was the new car. I think we can put down Jan 29th, 1961 as a pretty safe bet for the debut of the second Patterson T51. This was the first Warwick Farm International '100' meeting. The programme quotes him with a 2496cc engine. Exactly the same as Brabham & Stillwell's listings. But Flockhart's is quoted as 2460cc.

Stephen


I admit guilt to not reading that paragraph on Tom Brabham completely. I hadn't seen the reference to Patterson at the end.

This is starting to make sense to me now. In my mind, this is what I believe may have happened:

Patterson drives his original T51 (which I have listed as F2/15/59), and towards the end of the year does a deal in Britain for the Tuck/Atkins car which has a full 2.5 engine which are very thin on the ground here.
He debuts the Tuck/Atkins car early in the year until he writes it off at Lakeside in July. He drags the remains back to Melbourne, and if time permits fits the 2.5 into his old chassis, which he then ships over to Perth and uses that combination for the rest of the year to win the Gold Star. Mission accomplished.


#44 David McKinney

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:02

Or he ran the older car at Lakeside, saving the new one for the more important (Gold Star) race at Caversham

Have we mentioned an exact date for the Lakeside accident? He was at Caversham on 12 August

#45 JimBradshaw

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:26

Or he ran the older car at Lakeside, saving the new one for the more important (Gold Star) race at Caversham

Have we mentioned an exact date for the Lakeside accident? He was at Caversham on 12 August


I agree with David Mckinney

It was the second-string earlier car that was flipped at the semi-important Lakeside meeting, while the newer 2.5 litre car was being saved for the Gold Star race at Caversham.

The earlier car was repaired and driven by Doug Whiteford on various occasions in 1961 and March 1962 and thereafter was sold to John Brindley. I am not sure whether the earlier car ever had a full 2.5 litre engine because at the opening Sandown meeting March 1962 it was listed as having a 2.3 or 2.4 engine.

The car which Patterson drove throughout 1961 and 1962 was the double rear wishbone later car NOT the earlier single wishbone car.

I am surprised nobody has picked up on the fact that on my earlier comment that the first Patterson T51 somersaulted twice in its career ...the second time it was virtually destroyed and as far as I know not seen again.

JB






#46 David Shaw

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:46

I have July 16 listed. It would make sense to take the backup car to the non-championship meeting.

#47 cooper997

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:10

David S, I still think we may be a little early drawing a full conclusion just yet. But I've done some more digging and the following is what I'm thinking at the moment.

I've already mentioned the piece from the Dec 60 WF programme whereby it wasn't sure which car Patterson would be running. I'm now pretty certain he ran his old car at this first Warwick Farm meeting. I've been looking at more magazines and although I've picked this up earlier (but until now, haven't mentioned it) the old car doesn't have the 'letterbox' air vent forward of the windshield. Plus the cutout around the LH side fuel filler neck is square with radiused corners. The later car has the 'letterbox' clearly shown in Terry's BP promo photo and the bodywork around the LH fuel filler neck is a different shape. I also believe that the air outlet on the rear-most tip of the rear bodywork are both in different positions.

Based on all this and the Brindley photos, I'm going to say that the July 16th, 1961 Lakeside meeting 'crash' car was the earlier one. Couple of reasons, one is I have read amongst the myriad of magazines I've been going through (but failed to note where) that the Lakeside damage wasn't as bad as we have been thinking. Dick Willis can perhaps indicate whether this is so, given he has a Brier Thomas CD of photos. But I still believe the car then required a new nose and probably rear bodywork. If not new, then the repaired shape changed quite a bit. Especially the shape of the opening for the radiator, it became a lot bigger. The LH side bodywork probably survived as the shape around the LH fuel filler neck is the same on the Brindley car to that shown on the cover of SCW Feb 61 with Patto aboard. And another reason to think it was the older car is simply that if Stillwell can have his crew change engines/chassis' willy-nilly, then Patto could too. There's no doubt more to be revealed before setting this possbile conclusion in concrete though.

In my last post I stated the likely debut of Patto's new T51 was the Jan 29th Warwick Farm International. In the scheme of bodywork variations I think this on the money. He then took it back to Victoria and raced it at Phillip Island, the following day - Australia Day long weekend. A big effort, that saw Stillwell and Aussie Miller doing the same.

If anyone is good with identifying T51's minus bodywork then I'm happy to scan the July 1961 Modern Motor photo of it in this state. Someone might then relate to whether it was the Atkins or Tuck car that David McK believes it was mostly likely sourced from.

Stephen

#48 Dick Willis

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:15

I've been doing some more research, looking at the Brier Thomas pics again which I would love to post here but I would get shot ;
I think you are on the right track David Mc Kinney and David Shaw has deviated, the car at Lowood on 11/6/61 is noticeably different to the Lakeside car in that it has a bonnet scoop whereas the Lakeside car clearly doesn't.
The Lakeside meeting was on 16/7/61 and the car was entered as 2180cc's. For my money this car was F2/15/59 and was therefore writtten off. As DM said the "new" car, F2/23A/58 ran at Lowood being a Gold Star round. The "new" car also ran at Bathurst Easter where it won and is identified by the bonnet scoop but wasn't entered in the programme so I can't check its engine size there. His entry for Warwick Farm in January was listed as 2495cc's but I haven't had a chance to look up its results there.
At the October 1960 Bathurst meeting where he finished a fine second behind JB his engine was listed as 1960cc's, but it was quickest of all the Australian Coopers.
It does seem definite now though that this 'new" car had been a "works" car and was sold to Tuck/Atkins from whom Patterson bought it. When Murray Richards owned it he claimed it was a "works" car and was used by JB and Salvadori in 1959 but is there any confirmation of this ?

#49 David McKinney

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:31

When Murray Richards owned it he claimed it was a "works" car and was used by JB and Salvadori in 1959 but is there any confirmation of this ?

Slavadori didn't race works Coopers in 1959...
He did however race an ex-works car for Atkins in 1960, which ties in with one of my conjectural origins for the second Patterson T51

The T51 Slavadori raced in Australia in 1961 went to Scuderia Veloce and has been in NZ since the end of 1962


#50 David Shaw

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:46

I wasn't drawing a full conclusion yet, that is why I stated this is what I believe may have happened.

Unfortunately I don't have any reference material from 1961, so I couldn't refer to any pictures from the Lakeside meeting.

This thread has been a bit of an eye opener for me as I had followed the story in Blanden's book that a replacement was brought out from the UK to replace the damaged Lakeside chassis, which obviously was not the case.