38 replies to this topic

[Mal9444]

Can anyone point me towards a resource wherein I might find the competition records of the Lancia D24 sports car? I believe they were new for 1954 and, presumably, only a few would have been built since Lancia shortly thereafter ceased competition. I know the GP cars (D40?) were given to/ taken over by Ferrari - but what became of the D24s?

Specifically and in particular I am keen to find the road registration numbers of the Lancias that raced in the 1954 RAC TT at Dundrod. I have Martyn Wainwright's 1950 Motorsport in Colour, which has separate pictures of three cars (Fangio, Taruffi, Castelloti et al) but in all the pictures the registration plates, though visible, are indecipherable. They also competed in the Mille Miglia of that year (same driver team?).

Thanks.

Edited by Mal9444, 03 February 2010 - 11:55.

[David McKinney]

This is the best place to look for results

http://wsrp.ic.cz/

No reg numbers though

[fuzzi]

Just for the record

Lancia ran a pair of D25s at Dundrod and two D24s. Both D25s retired and Piodi/Taruffi managed 4th place and Manzon/Vallenzano sixth in the surviving D24s.

The drivers of the D24s for the 1954 Mille Miglia were Ascari (standing in for Villoresi) Castellotti and Taruffi.

The grand Prix car was the D50

Can't help with registration numbers apart from Ascari is photographed in 168656-TO in "La Lancia" by Wim J. Oude Weernink.

Edited by fuzzi, 03 February 2010 - 09:24.

[fnqvmuch]

Can anyone point me towards a resource wherein I might find the competition records of the Lancia D24 (D40?) sports car? I believe they were new for 1954 and, presumably, only a few would have been built since Lancia shortly thereafter ceased competition. I know the GP cars (D40?) were given to/ taken over by Ferrari - but what became of the D40s?

Specifically and in particular I am keen to find the road registration numbers of the three D40s that raced in the 1954 RAC TT at Dundrod. I have Martyn Wainwright's 1950 Motorsport in Colour, which has separate pictures of all three cars (Fangio, Taruffi, Castelloti et al) but in all the pictures the registration plates, though visible, are indecipherable. They also competed in the Mille Miglia of that year (same driver team?).

Thanks.

for what it's worth - i.e. until the experts answer you - I have Ascari winning the '54 MM racing no 602 - reg no TO 162250 , and shown after what maybe the same event are 541 - reg no TO 162252 and, with rego obscured 547. According to this also driving were Taruffi, Villoresi - injured in a crash - and, maybe not finishing, Castellotti. The last event competed by the D24 was a TT where Ascari DNFed and Fangio/Castellotti came second, but only two cars entered ? p.s. - the GP cars are usually referred to as D50's
Steven

[JB Miltonian]

The pictures I have found here at home seem to indicate the following for registration numbers for Dundrod 1954:

#1 - Ascari : TO168656
#2 - Fangio: TO158157
#3 - Taruffi: TO151240

Anyone with clearer photos is welcome to dispute this.

[Mal9444]

Thank you to all. The query is in respect of a model that I have (no, no - please don't shake your head and walk away...) of the above mentioned Ascari Mille Miglia car that I wish to re-work as one of the Dundrod cars. I am intrigued by the D25/ D24 information. I had assumed from these pictures ( http://www.motorspor...arpages/153.htm - go to the linked one and then use the buttons to go forwards and back) that all four cars were D24s. They look identical - the two versions of the car must have been very hard to spot from their external appearance alone. I also thought that Fangio retired his D24 with a broken oil pipe after dumping the contents of the oil tank at the hairpin - hence the cloud of blue smoke in one of Martyn Wainright's pictures. ( http://www.motorspor...arpages/157.htm ) http://www.motorspor...arpages/157.htm

Again - thank you.

Edited by Mal9444, 03 February 2010 - 09:20.

[bradbury west]

Malcolm, your query seems to have been answered but I will check through the Rosani book for more info. I will see what is there.
Roger Lund

[Mal9444]

Malcolm, your query seems to have been answered but I will check through the Rosani book for more info. I will see what is there.
Roger Lund

Roger - thank you. All contributions gratefully received.

[Bjorn Kjer]

LANCIA 1954 :

Buenos WC R1 : Not entered
Sebring WC R2 : 2nd Rubirosa/Valenzano , DISQ(6) Taruffi/Manzon PUSH , RET Ascari/Villoresi BRAKES
Tour Of Sicily : 1 Taruffi
Mille WC R3 : 1 Ascari , RET Taruffi , RET Castellotti MECH , RET Valenzano CRASH
Targa Florio : 1 Taruffi RET Castellotti ACC.DAMAGE
Le Mans WC R4 : 3 cars entered , all nonarrivals
Oporto GP : 1. Villoresi , 2 Castellotti
TT WC R5 : whereas both D24 (wheelbase 7ft.10½in.)finished , both new D25 (wheelbase 7ft.6in.and outboard brakes - the only differences) retired, Ascari/villoresi through differential and the Fangio/Castellotti through engine problems.
Panam WC R6 : Not entered.

Edited by Bjørn Kjer, 03 February 2010 - 12:37.

[Mal9444]

LANCIA 1954 :

Buenos WC R1 : Not entered
Sebring WC R2 : 2nd Rubirosa/Valenzano , DISQ(6) Taruffi/Manzon PUSH , RET Ascari/Villoresi BRAKES
Tour Of Sicily : 1 Taruffi
Mille WC R3 : 1 Ascari , RET Taruffi , RET Castellotti MECH , RET Valenzano CRASH
Targa Florio : 1 Taruffi RET Castellotti ACC.DAMAGE
Le Mans WC R4 : 3 cars entered , all nonarrivals
Oporto GP : 1. Villoresi , 2 Castellotti
TT WC R5 : whereas both D24 (wheelbase 7ft.10½in.)finished , both new D25 (wheelbase 7ft.6in.and outboard brakes - the only differences) retired, Ascari/villoresi through differential and the Fangio/Cadstellotti through engine problems.
Panam WC R& : Not entered.

Thanks, Bjorn. And was it not at the TT that everyone was so impressed with Lancia's transporters? IIRC, I sent you a photo.

[JohnB]

TT WC R5 : whereas both D24 (wheelbase 7ft.10½in.)finished , both new D25 (wheelbase 7ft.6in.and outboard brakes - the only differences) retired, Ascari/villoresi through differential and the Fangio/Cadstellotti through engine problems.

Were they also different engine sizes? The book `Tourist Trophy' by Richard Hough has some of the Lancias as 3750cc and some as 3300cc, though it's a bit confusing and his text doesn't seem to agree with his entry list.

In the main text, about the entry he has:
'And so were no less than five Lancias, only their second appearance in a T.T., all a shade unsteady on the corners, two with 3.8-litre engines and outboard brakes, three with the 3.3-litre units'

whereas in the table of entries he has only four Lancias (all in class C):
1 - Ascari/Villoresi 3750cc
2 - Fangio/Castellotti 3750cc
3 - Taruffi/Piodi 3750cc
4 - Manzon/Valenzanna 3300cc

He also lists some speeds over the flying kilometre:
Ascari (3.8 Lancia) 144.6mph
Taruffi (3.3 Lancia) 140.5mph
Fangio (3.8 Lancia) 140.8mph

So perhaps by this account there were two 3750cc cars entered (the D25?) and two 3300cc (D24?) with a fifth car used in practice only, and a misprint for the capacity of the Taruffi/Piodi entry? A bit of a guess though.

And sorry, I realise this doesn't help with registration numbers at all.

[fnqvmuch]

I stand corrected - but a (curiously different) potted history is to be found where Aldo Zano described the D24 for Model Cars Magazine in Oct. 1966;

http://vsrnonline.co..._V3N10_p492.jpg

http://vsrnonline.co..._V3N10_p493.jpg

steven

[Mal9444]

Martyn Wainwright (see above) gives the engine capacity of all four Lancias racing (why did I say in my original post there were three? Sorry - I knew all along there were four) as being the same.

I am away from my records and won't get to them until Friday (I now have quite a little archive on these Dundrod races, including official entry lists and contemporary reports (Autosport or Motor Sport, sometimes both) for all five TTs held there but will offer what they say about who entered what and in what class as soon as I can.

They certainly were stunning cars, even though I was only 10 years old when I saw them 'in th flesh'. My first sighting of Fangio, too. - and Moss.

[JohnB]

Martyn Wainwright (see above) gives the engine capacity of all four Lancias racing (why did I say in my original post there were three? Sorry - I knew all along there were four) as being the same.

There does seem to be some confusion about the capacities - in the captions to the Motorsport54 pictures linked by Mal9444 above the number 3 and 4 cars are given as 3284cc, but the number 2 Fangio/Castellotti car is given as 3284cc in one photo but 3750cc in another.

Edited by JohnB, 03 February 2010 - 12:20.

[Bjorn Kjer]

My infos tells me the TTD24's were 3,3 litres , the D25 was 3,7 litres (3750cc) .

And yes Mal the enormous Lancia transporter was there. As to the number of 5 cars at the TT , I'll allow to doubt it. The big transporter could carry 4 cars only (which in itself was sensational), but who knows ,they may have had a support lorry ? At least my books cannot confirm it.

Edited by Bjørn Kjer, 03 February 2010 - 12:48.

[JohnB]

Just to pull some of the info on the various posts together, here's how it seems to me:-

Entry:-
#1 D25 3750cc Ascari/Villoresi (possibly TO168656)
#2 D25 3750cc Fangio/Castellotti (possibly TO158157)
#3 D24 3284cc Taruffi/Piodi (possibly TO151240)
#4 D24 3284cc Manzon/Valenzano

There may have been a fifth car there too, but if so for practice only.

Race:-
The #2 D25 retired after 11 laps. Fangio replaced Piodi and Castellotti replaced Valenzano.
The #1 D25 retired after 69 laps.
Fangio/Taruffi #3 finished 2nd overall and 4th on handicap (1st in class) (84 laps)
Manzon/Castelotti #4 finished 3rd overall and 6th on handicap (2nd in class) (82 laps)

(Edited Valenzanna to Valenzano)

Edited by JohnB, 03 February 2010 - 18:33.

[Jean L]

Taruffi / Piotti (TO151240)
Manzon / Valenzano (TO15846)
Fangio / Castellotti (TO158157) D24 3750cc
Ascari / Villoresi (TO168656) D25

Edit:Oups,Piodi,not Piotti

Edited by Jean L, 03 February 2010 - 18:15.

[David McKinney]

I'm sure it was Roberto Piodi, the experienced Lancia driver, Jean - not Luigi Piotti, the OSCA and Maserati man

[ERault]

A great effort on the italian wiki : http://it.wikipedia....wiki/Lancia_D24

[JohnB]

A great effort on the italian wiki : http://it.wikipedia....wiki/Lancia_D24

This bit maybe of particular interest for your model - describing the differences between the T.T. D24s and earlier versions (translated by Google, and surprisingly makes sense):-

'It should be noted however that even the two D24 3.3-liter, in trust for the opportunity to crews Piero Taruffi / Roberto Pioda and Robert Manzon / Luigi Valenzano, are changed: apart from a few small tweaks to the suspension, the largest differences reside in the ' lubrication system, with the consequent elimination of the air intakes that were present on the right front fender. Aesthetically, apart from the elimination of features air vents, the two D24 show a more rounded grille and closing the louvers on the sides.'

[Jean L]

Oups,yes it is Piodi.

[Mal9444]

You guys are sensational - thank you. I do wish I did not now have to attend 2 work committees..

[Mal9444]

Thanks again to all, and special thanks to ERault and JohnB for the wiki link. Courtesy of Wiki’s instant translate button I offer this fuller version of the article (further translated from the Wiki literal by me):

‘After four races (Buenos Aires, Sebring, Mille Miglia and Le Mans) rankings in the World Sports Car Championship saw Lancia only 8 points behind Ferrari (22 points, Ferrari, Lancia 14) with two races still to go (Tourist Trophy and the Carrera Panamericana). The title is absolutely open. So, even though sports-racing activity in Turin House is focused more on the development of Formula One (the D50) than on the preparation of the cars and engines to be used in sportscar races, it was decided to enter four machines to counter Ferrari in RAC Tourist Trophy, scheduled for Dundrod in Northern Ireland on 'September 11 1954.

‘The "expedition" beyond the Alps, contrary to Lancia custom, seems somewhat botched and improvised. In the event two new D25 3.7-litre cars made their debut (entrusted to Alberto Ascari/Luigi Villoresi and Juan Manuel Fangio/Eugenio Castellotti) But, fortunately, two "traditional" D24s of 3.3 litres were also sent. It should be noted however that even the two D24 3.3-litre cars, allocated to Piero Taruffi / Roberto Pioda and Robert Manzon / Luigi Valenzano, were changed: apart from a few small tweaks to the suspension, the largest differences were in the lubrication system, with the consequent elimination of the air intakes that were present on the right front bodywork. Visually, apart from the elimination of those air vents, the two D24s show a more rounded grille and the louvers on the sides have been closed.

‘Despite the Ferrari team is decimated by defections and race remains a single machine "official", the 3-litre 4-cylinder Mike Hawthorn/Maurice Trintignant [I found this sentence so delicious in literal translation that I couldn’t bring myself to change it –Mal9444]. The four Lancias could not match the pace of their single rival and had to settle for the runner-up positions. The regulations did not permit driver changes from the official Lancia nominations (Fangio "coupled" to Taruffi, Castellotti to Manzoni). [In fact and as we have seen, they did, and Fangio moved into car #3 with Taruffi: I think Wiki and I may have mistranslated the original Italian: “A nulla servono i cambi di pilota (consentiti dal regolamento) che in casa Lancia vengono messi in atto (Fangio “accoppiato” a Taruffi, Castellotti a Manzon).”] The two are forced to retire their D25s (Fangio to engine failure, transmission failure for Ascari) and the D24s cannot do better than 2nd and the 3rd place on the scale of absolute speed behind the 3-litre Ferrari (which, with Mike Hawthorn, also makes the fastest lap of the day). Along a timed stretch of the circuit known as the Flying Kilometre the Lancias have a respectable result: the best of the D24s, led by Piero Taruffi, slightly exceeds the 226 km per hour, while the D25 of Alberto Ascari touches 233 kph.

‘The final outcome of the race greatly disappoints Gianni Lancia. Right after this race, with the title now mathematically out of Lancia’s grasp, he decides not to participate in the Carrera of Mexico, despite being in an advanced stage of developing an engine for about 3 and a half litres specially for that race. In the end, the disappointing TT marks the end of Lancia’s efforts in international sports car racing.’ [But in fact, it did not, because surely Piero Taruffi won the '54 Targa Florio in a D24 - see link below.]

Going back to where we began, it would now – thanks to you all – appear unlikely that Ascari’s Mille Miglia-winning D24 was one of the two D24s sent to Dundrod and I must content myself with a model of a car I never saw, and start again in a search for the one that I did. But that is a subject for another day – and indeed another place, Talk Of Model Cars having now been banished from mainstream TNF to its own little place beyond the Pale.

The model in question:


A real, live D25 – but not ex-Dundrod, either:
http://www.finecars....2173/index.html

While this one:
http://www.ultimatec...a-Spyder_2.html

sports the above-mentioned air scoop but the registration does not match any of those pulled together by Jean L and others.

John Moore’s TT booklet, by the way – normally reliable because written from original Ulster Automobile Club documents (I realise Doug and possibly others may have difficulty with a sentence conjoining the words ‘reliable’ and ‘Ulster Automobile Club’) – does not discriminate between D24 and D25, giving no model designations, but does gives the engine capacity/ no of cylinders as 3750/6 for all four cars. This may, of course, have been taken from an early entry form and the cars described above were the ones that showed up.

Edited by Mal9444, 06 February 2010 - 10:12.

[ERault]

The french Lancia Club had a D25 from the works museum on show at Retromobile :

http://www.retrovisi...om/blog/?p=4785

[Mal9444]

The french Lancia Club had a D25 from the works museum on show at Retromobile :

http://www.retrovisi...om/blog/?p=4785

Beautiful car - but where did the front end come from? Completely different from all the pictures I have ever seen of D24s/ D25s 'in period'. What I find so attractive about the D24 (which is how I came to mis-name it as the D40 in the title line of the thread - and I cannot work out how to change that) is the very clear family resemblance to the styling of its Formula 1 successor. Asked to guess the make of the car in the French museum with only a front-end view to go on, I would have shown my ignorance by saying 'Maserati' (not withstanding the absence of a trident).

Thanks for the link.

Edited by Mal9444, 06 February 2010 - 10:42.

[ERault]

Beautiful car - but where did the front end come from? Completely different from all the pictures I have ever seen of D24s/ D25s 'in period'. What I find so attractive about the D24 (which is how I came to mis-name it as the D40 in the title line of the thread - and I cannot work out how to change that) is the very clear family resemblance to the styling of its Formula 1 successor. Asked to guess the make of the car in the French museum with only a front-end view to go on, I would have shown my ignorance by saying 'Maserati' (not withstanding the absence of a trident).

Thanks for the link.

That particuliar D25 was modified in the first half of 1955 by the works : the plan was to enter it for Ascari, who was behind the project, in the 1955 Carrera Panamericana. Sadly Ascari's death put an end to this and the car is since kept in the Lancia museum in Turin (not in a french museum as my previous writing led you to believe). You probably know that the 1955 Carrera was cancelled anyway. Mercedes-Benz, like Lancia, had developped two special 300 SLR coupés for the event and like this D25, they never raced in anger.

[Mal9444]

That particuliar D25 was modified in the first half of 1955 by the works : the plan was to enter it for Ascari, who was behind the project, in the 1955 Carrera Panamericana. Sadly Ascari's death put an end to this and the car is since kept in the Lancia museum in Turin (not in a french museum as my previous writing led you to believe). You probably know that the 1955 Carrera was cancelled anyway. Mercedes-Benz, like Lancia, had developped two special 300 SLR coupés for the event and like this D25, they never raced in anger.

Thanks.

[Les Dalton]

Bon Jour Malcom,
Wow, you have certainly got some good answers to your questions, for what its worth here is my bit.
The 1953 D24s were originally built with a 3284cc 265 bhp engine, but for the Mexican road race there capacity was reduced to 3099cc by shortening the stroke by 85mm.
Fangio was 1st
Taruffi was 2nd
Castellotti was 3rd
And sadly, Bonetto was killed whilst dueling with Taruffi when his car hit a lamp post.
1954 Mille Miglia
Lancia entered 4 D24s for this race: 0006 Ascari (AS602) 0007 Taruffi (TA547)0008 Castellotti. 0000 Valenzano (VA541) Ascari won the race.
1954 Targa Floria D24s for Taruffi and Castellotti.
!954 21st Dunrod TT
Lancia entered two D25s (3.8 ltr V6 295bhp) one for Ascari and Villoresi (retired with gearbox trouble) and one for fangio and Casterllotti (retired with blown engine)
They also entered two D24s for Taruffi and Piodi and Manzont and Valenzano.
Fangoi took over from Piodi and finished 4th overall and 1st in class C, and the Manzont/Valenzano car finished 6th overall, and 2nd in class C.
And of course, Ferrari took the championship for 1954.
I have attached some pics for your perusal, including my source of info which I am sure you would find very useful. it is Lancia Racing, written by Nigel Trow and published by Osprey in 1987.
kind Regards,
Les dalton.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Thanks Les , thanks for the link and the pictures , the transporter one was just my topic. Are there others in that book ?

[Les Dalton]

Hi Bjorn,
Glad that it was some use to you, I will try to attach the only other transporter picture from the era for your perusal.
kind regards,
Les.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Thanks very much , I know the car , but another new picture, and yes for personal use !

[Mal9444]

I saw your post, Les, only this morning UK time and immediately thought:

'Bjorn, Bjorn - there's a picture of a transporter... there's a picture of a transporter!' and was ready to send him a PM when I scrolled down and saw that Bjorn was already there.

Thank you for your trouble, and the heads-up to the book. That's two books I have to put on my list: Nigel Trow and the one mentioned further up the thread by Richard Hough 'Tourist Trophy'.

I was a little confused about all the references to the '54 TT being the D24s' last race and yet Taruffi winning the Targa Florio, which I had thought always followed the TT. But I see by doing some research for myself - instead of asking dumb questions with easily found answers here - that in 1954 the TF was on May 30th, whereas thereafter it moved to October.

And by the way ERault, if you're still listening, I've even found a model of 'your' 1955 D25 that never raced

(http://www.carmodel....zB6TUMwMUxUQT0n
LCcnLCAnTFlLaUNYaENXaEJXaEJXZ0I5dEE4dE44dE44c043c00nLCAnJywnJywgJ2FkZC0xLTM3Mjcy
JywgJzAnKQ== )

Thanks again to everyone who has helped.

Edited by Mal9444, 07 February 2010 - 12:02.

[Eric Dunsdon]

The results table in Valerio Moretti's book 'La Scommessa Di Gianni Lancia' (1986) includes D24 victories for Eugenio Castellotti in the 1954 'Bonzano-Mendola', 'Aosta-Gran San Bernado', 'Bologna-Raticosa(D25), 'Treponti-Castelnuovo and 'Firenze-Siena. Piero Tarrufi is shown as having won Catania-Etna' as well as the 'Coppa Di Oro' in Siracusa. I assume that these were hill climb events as the distances were between 30 and 40 kilometres.

Like most Lancia competition models they were certainly fantastic looking cars!.

[Sharman]

LANCIA 1954 :

Buenos WC R1 : Not entered
Sebring WC R2 : 2nd Rubirosa/Valenzano , DISQ(6) Taruffi/Manzon PUSH , RET Ascari/Villoresi BRAKES
Tour Of Sicily : 1 Taruffi
Mille WC R3 : 1 Ascari , RET Taruffi , RET Castellotti MECH , RET Valenzano CRASH
Targa Florio : 1 Taruffi RET Castellotti ACC.DAMAGE
Le Mans WC R4 : 3 cars entered , all nonarrivals
Oporto GP : 1. Villoresi , 2 Castellotti
TT WC R5 : whereas both D24 (wheelbase 7ft.10½in.)finished , both new D25 (wheelbase 7ft.6in.and outboard brakes - the only differences) retired, Ascari/villoresi through differential and the Fangio/Castellotti through engine problems.
Panam WC R6 : Not entered.

No apologies for bumping this thread. What is intriguing about the results shown above is the inclusion of RUBIROSA in 2nd place at Sebring. So far as I recall he was only famous for one thing and that was not his ability as a driver. Was he better than was ever thought or were there other factors involved?

[Mal9444]

Does anyone know how we can change the name of this thread to 'Lancia D24 identification'? My typo is a continuing embarrassment.

[David McKinney]

Was he better than was ever thought or were there other factors involved?

Very much a tortoise and hare thing
All the fast car/driver combinations retired, leaving a 1500cc OSCA to win

[Bjorn Kjer]

Oh yes sure Malcolm , we can ask Twinny ! And come on , your typo is as good as anyones.

Edited by Bjørn Kjer, 17 February 2010 - 20:35.

[Eric Dunsdon]

[quote name='David McKinney' date='Feb 17 2010, 16:46' post='4150053']
Very much a tortoise and hare thing
All the fast car/driver combinations retired, leaving a 1500cc OSCA to win
[/quote

And 1500 cc OSCA's also finished 4th, 5th and 8th, 1-2-3 on Index Of Performance and in the 1500cc class.Quite a day for the Boiogna Company.

[Sharman]

Mind you I suppose that he could boast that he finished 2nd to Moss after 12 hrs