8165 replies to this topic

[DILLIGAF]

Actually I don't. Red Bull confirmed it was cracked, Vettel underperformed while driving it, suddenly was quicker when he got a new one. Either Red Bull is lying and that's an utterly bizarre coincidence or you're just plain wrong.

Just out of interest does anyone know how hairline cracks in a chassis would affect performance?

The way some drivers throw the cars over the kerbs you'd think all chassis would sustain hairliine cracks of some sort.

[DILLIGAF]

The Mark Hughes article has created a myth that has been debunked several times. The blown diffusor/delayed ignition software was introduced earlier than Valencia.

Got a source for those two claims?

Also, you forgot to mention that Mark only went back to chassis #3 because chassis #6 was sent back to Milton Keynes because the team said there was something wrong with it.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 17 November 2010 - 03:17.

[V8 Fireworks]

They made their wish known for their perceived faster man to pass. Webber's camp did not pass on the the team tactic and the accident happened.

When did Vettel let Webber past in Malaysia and other races where Webber was faster. But Webber cruised behind 1 - 3 s, on low engine, saving tyres, and keeping engine cool by not running too close. Webber turned down his engine and cruised behind. Yes Webber could go tell me when vettel is on low engine and I, Webber, will go on high engine and have a crack. But he did not.

Vettel therefore SHOULD NOT HAVE EITHER. YET HE DID - stupid thing to do.

The team rule IS man first at first corner WINS THE RACE. This is a FIXED rule, and will apply next season.

Vettel had NO BUSINESS in attempting to pass by choosing to use high engine when Webber was on low engine - agree or not !?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 17 November 2010 - 06:10.

[V8 Fireworks]

but does anyone seriously expect RBR to keep their no team orders halo up for that long in the following season?

They will and must.

No team orders when both drivers are in mathematical contention.

Webber and Vettel to always share turns on last qually, and NEVER play silly and refuse to not leave the pits before the other.

[WhiteBlue]

When did Vettel let Webber past in Malaysia and other races where Webber was faster. But Webber cruised behind 1 - 3 s, on low engine, saving tyres, and keeping engine cool by not running too close. Webber turned down his engine and cruised behind. Yes Webber could go tell me when vettel is on low engine and I, Webber, will go on high engine and have a crack. But he did not.

Vettel therefore SHOULD NOT HAVE EITHER. YET HE DID - stupid thing to do.

The team rule IS man first at first corner WINS THE RACE. This is a FIXED rule, and will apply next season.

Vettel had NO BUSINESS in attempting to pass by choosing to use high engine when Webber was on low engine - agree or not !?

I don't understand what you are talking about.

[V8 Fireworks]

I don't understand what you are talking about.

When did Webber try to overtake Vettel when he was faster?

He didn't as the "man first at first corner wins".

So why was Vettel stuffing around on a higher engine setting?

Why didn't he say, "oi give Mark some more revs as I am catching him - I need to run high revs to fend off Alonso, so please give Mark some more revs so I have some space"

Instead he thought " I want to pass Mark and win the race"
When he should have thought - "I am not going to pass Mark because I have more revs, which I have been given to defend Alonso - NOT to pass Mark. This is a highly stupid stratgey and why is Marko being such an idiot and telling me to this ? Is he trying to favour me unfairly !? "

There are NO team orders in RBR remember. So Markko being silly, should have been given a stern reminder by Vettel. Vettel should say " I am not using team orders like that ! This is no team order team !"

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 17 November 2010 - 06:28.

[WhiteBlue]

Got a source for those two claims? Also, you forgot to mention that Mark only went back to chassis #3 because chassis #6 was sent back to Milton Keynes because the team said there was something wrong with it.

http://www.formula1....eo/onboard.html You can compare the Renault engine sound on the downshift from Webber's Spanish GP qualifying lap and Kubica's Monaco lap. The engine in the Renault is crisp and clear while in the Red Bull you hear a messy growl when the software delays the ignition. It has been discussed in another board back in June if I remember right but I can't find the thread because their search engine is crap.

I'm afraid I don't remember that there was any official communication about Webber's #6 chassis. Got a source from the team saying it was wrong?

[WhiteBlue]

When did Webber try to overtake Vettel when he was faster?

He didn't as the "man first at first corner wins".

So why was Vettel stuffing around on a higher engine setting?

Why didn't he say, "oi give Mark some more revs as I am catching him - I need to run high revs to fend off Alonso, so please give Mark some more revs so I have some space"

Instead he thought " I want to pass Mark and win the race"
When he should have thought - "I am not going to pass Mark because I have more revs, which I have been given to defend Alonso - NOT to pass Mark. This is a highly stupid stratgey and why is Marko being such an idiot and telling me to this ? Is he trying to favour me unfairly !? "

There are NO team orders in RBR remember. So Markko being silly, should have been given a stern reminder by Vettel. Vettel should say " I am not using team orders like that ! This is no team order team !"

I'm afraid I still don't understand you. I thought I have made my view of the events in Turkey quite clear in several posts. I don't understand what they have to do with Malaysia or other races.

Helmut Marko made it very clear that the team wanted Mark to let Sebastian by because he was faster or the team perceived him faster. From the team radio in the FOM clip it is clear that Ciaron Pilbeam did not communicate the message to Mark. Instead he is heard on the radio saying "Push your boost button". There is no such thing as a boost button in the Red Bull so it is obviously a coded message that Mark needed to go faster to defend against an attack from behind.

The episode shows that there was no such thing as an enforceable team order, but the accident seems to have changed the Red Bull approach. Prior to Turkey they did not expect their drivers to fight each other like competitors from other teams. After the accident and particularly towards the end of the season the team has repeatedly said that the drivers were free to fight but should not collide again.

[DILLIGAF]

http://www.formula1....eo/onboard.html You can compare the Renault engine sound on the downshift from Webber's Spanish GP qualifying lap and Kubica's Monaco lap. The engine in the Renault is crisp and clear while in the Red Bull you hear a messy growl when the software delays the ignition. It has been discussed in another board back in June if I remember right but I can't find the thread because their search engine is crap.

I'm afraid I don't remember that there was any official communication about Webber's #6 chassis. Got a source from the team saying it was wrong?

So you're basing your claim that the new software was definately introduced prior to Valencia by you listening to an engine note.!! And to top it off you're comparing it with Kubica's. That's some pretty solid evidence there mate!!

As for chassis #6 i've already given you a source previously but here is one again.

It was also noted on the Red Bull website after Korea iirc but i'm sure you can find it yourself.

[WhiteBlue]

That is a strange comment by Windsor about the chassis being send back to be correctly fettled for Brazil. It doesn't say anything about a fault found. I take that as a rumor that something was amiss with #6 but that isn't anywhere near the official confirmation that #3 had cracks. All it tells us is that Mark apparently preferred the repaired #3 until he crashed it in Korea like the #4. We are still in the dark if #6 had a fault or not.

[sosidge]

When did Webber try to overtake Vettel when he was faster?

He didn't as the "man first at first corner wins".

So why was Vettel stuffing around on a higher engine setting?

Why didn't he say, "oi give Mark some more revs as I am catching him - I need to run high revs to fend off Alonso, so please give Mark some more revs so I have some space"

Instead he thought " I want to pass Mark and win the race"
When he should have thought - "I am not going to pass Mark because I have more revs, which I have been given to defend Alonso - NOT to pass Mark. This is a highly stupid stratgey and why is Marko being such an idiot and telling me to this ? Is he trying to favour me unfairly !? "

There are NO team orders in RBR remember. So Markko being silly, should have been given a stern reminder by Vettel. Vettel should say " I am not using team orders like that ! This is no team order team !"

When was Webber ever faster?

[DILLIGAF]

That is a strange comment by Windsor about the chassis being send back to be correctly fettled for Brazil. It doesn't say anything about a fault found. I take that as a rumor that something was amiss with #6 but that isn't anywhere near the official confirmation that #3 had cracks. All it tells us is that Mark apparently preferred the repaired #3 until he crashed it in Korea like the #4. We are still in the dark if #6 had a fault or not.

Why then would chassis #6 need to be refettled if it was perfectly fine?

Also Newey said chassis #3 hand some hairline cracks. They could not confirm whether those hairline cracks actually affected the cars performance. It would not surprise me if every chassis suffers some hairline cracks during the course of a couple of races.

I am glad Red Bull provided Seb with a new chassis though because i think his issues with chassis #3 were more psychlogical than anything else. The driver must have complete faith in the whole car & once Seb got the new tub he was much happier & could focus 100% on qualifying & racing.

[Black Widow]

http://www.formula1....eo/onboard.html You can compare the Renault engine sound on the downshift from Webber's Spanish GP qualifying lap and Kubica's Monaco lap. The engine in the Renault is crisp and clear while in the Red Bull you hear a messy growl when the software delays the ignition. It has been discussed in another board back in June if I remember right but I can't find the thread because their search engine is crap.

I'm afraid I don't remember that there was any official communication about Webber's #6 chassis. Got a source from the team saying it was wrong?

WhiteBlue, may I point out that the article I referenced was written after Korea.

Your video link only goes to support the article I referenced. Yes Webber was was able to, as Horner put it at the time, "feather" the car to produce this extra downforce, Vettel was not.

Again, I ask you to provide me with links to support your claim

The Mark Hughes article has created a myth that has been debunked several times

Thanks

[Black Widow]

When was Webber ever faster?

When he was not being hampered by RBR's BS

[DILLIGAF]

Posted this in another thread but it really belongs here i think.

Mark saying he made a point of sitting down with Seb on their own in the trailer on Sunday night & having a good talk about all the things that went on this season was great to hear. When Mark said back in July after wing-gate that he had no problem with Seb & vice versa i had my doubts but i was obviously wrong. It's been a long hard season & it's great to see them away from the pressure cooker environment. I doubt they'll ever go holidaying together but you could see the mutual respect they have in that television interview. Hopefully in 2011 they'll keep pushing each other & do Red Bull proud again.

One thing with Mark that i've always liked has been his frankness & openness but i think whilst Mark is in this front running team he'll have to curb this tendency to say exactly what he thinks & take a more considered approach when dealing with the media. The media can twist things he says & blow things up into a huge drama when it's often a non-issue.

And it has been great to see the way Seb has handled himself since Sunday. Very humble & the Seb of 2007-09 shone through again. I went off him a little this year after Turkey & some of the finger stuff but i'm happy to admit i may have been a bit hard on him for that & he's won me back as a fan.

Edit: I still hate Marko though!!

Edited by DILLIGAF, 17 November 2010 - 11:16.

[WhiteBlue]

Source
I went to him, ” said Webber. “We spoke for a long time, man to man, about a load of things that had happened during the season. The important thing is that at the end we were able to shake hands. As a driver you have to give it everything in order to win but at the end of the season you have to be able to bow to the success of others.”
Vettel backed up Webber’s sentiments, “It was important to clear things up, it did us both good.”

The drivers had their peace talk and have cleared the air. Now the fans should follow them. The 2011 season at Red Bull will begin with a clean sheet. There is not much sense in acrimonious arguments in the off season about the past. Sometimes one wishes that they would share a bit more about their views about the conflicts but one has to respect that it is easier to sort it out in privat.

The Mark Webber fans will say that their man will be even better in 2013 than this year and the Seb Vettel fans will be totally convinced their man will have the upper hand next year. That is very normal and everybody can have his opinion about it.

[Alfisti]

This really is pointless. it's pretty clear that .....

a) Webber was done no favours by the team in many little ways and they clearly wanted Seb to win

b) That would not have mattered if Mark could learn how to launch the car off the line or how to do a lap around Bahrain or Yabbi Dabbi.

End of thread.

[Ricardo F1]

This really is pointless. it's pretty clear that .....

a) Webber was done no favours by the team in many little ways and they clearly wanted Seb to win

Bar one incident in Silverstone the team did Mark every favor under the sun. They gave him the best car on the grid, along with his team mate. He couldn't get the job done, blaming Red Bull is just ridiculous.

[Callahan]

Posted this in another thread but it really belongs here i think.

Mark saying he made a point of sitting down with Seb on their own in the trailer on Sunday night & having a good talk about all the things that went on this season was great to hear. When Mark said back in July after wing-gate that he had no problem with Seb & vice versa i had my doubts but i was obviously wrong. It's been a long hard season & it's great to see them away from the pressure cooker environment. I doubt they'll ever go holidaying together but you could see the mutual respect they have in that television interview. Hopefully in 2011 they'll keep pushing each other & do Red Bull proud again.

One thing with Mark that i've always liked has been his frankness & openness but i think whilst Mark is in this front running team he'll have to curb this tendency to say exactly what he thinks & take a more considered approach when dealing with the media. The media can twist things he says & blow things up into a huge drama when it's often a non-issue.

And it has been great to see the way Seb has handled himself since Sunday. Very humble & the Seb of 2007-09 shone through again. I went off him a little this year after Turkey & some of the finger stuff but i'm happy to admit i may have been a bit hard on him for that & he's won me back as a fan.

Edit: I still hate Marko though!!

This is good news and it's just what the other teams didn't want to hear.Red bull will be even stronger next year with Seb and Mark pushing each other to the absolute edge. Hunger for success is vital in F1 to bring out maximum performance in the whole team.I wish Bahrain was tomorrow.

[Alfisti]

Bar one incident in Silverstone the team did Mark every favor under the sun. They gave him the best car on the grid, along with his team mate. He couldn't get the job done, blaming Red Bull is just ridiculous.

Oh shut up.

[Ricardo F1]

Oh shut up.

[DILLIGAF]

This is good news and it's just what the other teams didn't want to hear.Red bull will be even stronger next year with Seb and Mark pushing each other to the absolute edge. Hunger for success is vital in F1 to bring out maximum performance in the whole team.I wish Bahrain was tomorrow.

[Philip Lee KK]

I wish Bahrain was tomorrow.

I don't. i am sure both drivers need a (well deserved) break and i personally need one after following this epic season.

[krapmeister]

This really is pointless. it's pretty clear that .....

a) Webber was done no favours by the team in many little ways and they clearly wanted Seb to win

b) That would not have mattered if Mark could learn how to launch the car off the line or how to do a lap around Bahrain or Yabbi Dabbi.

End of thread.

Bar one incident in Silverstone the team did Mark every favor under the sun. They gave him the best car on the grid, along with his team mate. He couldn't get the job done, blaming Red Bull is just ridiculous.

Oh shut up.

[Ricardo F1]

I just wish the Webber fans around here could just wallow in how WELL Mark did this year rather than wallow in the fact he didn't win the WDC. He had an amazing year, one to be proud of, one in which he pushed the final WDC to be better and perform more consistently. Mark Webber has never driven as well in his life than he did at times this year, isn't that something that you should be celebrating?? Lewis Hamilton didn't win the WDC either, but boy did he give it the best crack he could in what was by far not the best car of the year.

Edited by Ricardo F1, 18 November 2010 - 04:27.

[unoc]

mate, it's hard to think abut it when people like you seem to miss half the season and come up with crap like that. Apart from silverstone there were other things, for example blaming turkey on webber initially despite almost all commentators saying it was vettel's fault or atleast a racing incident, not webber's.

Both drivers can make improvement for next year.
Korea, Valencia, Bahrain and Abu Dhabi cost Webber the WDC.
The first half of the season was to blame for Alonso missing out on the WDC.
Silverstone, Turkey, Spa all nearly cost Vettel the WDC.
Monza and Singapore cost Hamilton the WDC.
Quali cost Button the WDC
Ferrari cost Massa the WDC
Bad cars cost everyone else the WDC

It's the vettel fans who still can't get over that vettel while fast did, like everyone else would have, required a bit of luck to get it. It was a close year and a mistake here and a mistake there was going to cost all but 1 the WDC. While webber fans and others seem to realise that both drivers will rebound and be stronger next year, and that all the drivers have had great moments of triumph
Webber much more consistant and 2 brilliant standout performances
Vettel showing his speed and his ability to pull great quali's
Alonso managed to pull back from the dead to nearly win
Massa coming back from his injury finding his feet and then dealing with the team
Hamilton more calm
Button showing more tactical neuonce

Vettel fans for some reason, and ricardof1, your posts reak of this, seem to believe that vettel had many failing of which he will improve this year while other drivers only fell occasionally and showed there best hand compared with only a 60% strength vettel or something.

It is getting quite rediculos, all the drivers fell, all the drivers did great things. Making posts suggesting that a nigh on full strength webber got smashed by a weak vettel is rediculos.

Everyone seems to see the light and dark of all the drivers except for vettel fans, who still believe vettel is mighty and everyone else is lucky enough to just be in his presence

[Callahan]

I just wish the Webber fans around here could just wallow in how WELL Mark did this year rather than wallow in the fact he didn't win the WDC. He had an amazing year, one to be proud of, one in which he pushed the final WDC to be better and perform more consistently. Mark Webber has never driven as well in his life than he did at times this year, isn't that something that you should be celebrating?? Lewis Hamilton didn't win the WDC either, but boy did he give it the best crack he could in what was by far not the best car of the year.

Well I am very happy with Mark's performance, considering there was a time once when we were just hoping he'd get a podium, let alone a race win. I'm over the fact that he didn't win the WDC already because when you look back on his season as a whole ,he mixed it with the best and can hold his head high. He will take a hell of a lot out of this season and , providing he remains motivated to drive these cars on the absolute edge for another season, will be right up there again.

[krapmeister]

I just wish the Webber fans around here could just wallow in how WELL Mark did this year rather than wallow in the fact he didn't win the WDC. He had an amazing year, one to be proud of, one in which he pushed the final WDC to be better and perform more consistently. Mark Webber has never driven as well in his life than he did at times this year, isn't that something that you should be celebrating?? Lewis Hamilton didn't win the WDC either, but boy did he give it the best crack he could in what was by far not the best car of the year.

Well, as you have done it would be nice if the other non-Webber fans were able to recognise the same thing - but generally most seem happy to judge his year on the last race unfortunately...

[DILLIGAF]

Well I am very happy with Mark's performance, considering there was a time once when we were just hoping he'd get a podium, let alone a race win. I'm over the fact that he didn't win the WDC already because when you look back on his season as a whole ,he mixed it with the best and can hold his head high. He will take a hell of a lot out of this season and , providing he remains motivated to drive these cars on the absolute edge for another season, will be right up there again.

Right on Callahan. At the end of 2007 Webbo had 2 podiums to his name. All i wanted was for him was to win one race, just one. Now he has 6 wins, 20 podiums to his credit & hopefully a few more before he retires. He's proven he can mix it with the best on his day & i'm as happy as a dog with two dicks.

[Callahan]

Right on Callahan. At the end of 2007 Webbo had 2 podiums to his name. All i wanted was for him was to win one race, just one. Now he has 6 wins, 20 podiums to his credit & hopefully a few more before he retires. He's proven he can mix it with the best on his day & i'm as happy as a dog with two dicks.

Nothing I can say will top that mate

[V8 Fireworks]

When was Webber ever faster?

Malaysia for example...

webber screwed up his season. Korea and Valencia of course major stuff-ups.

However MANY times he was faster, and did not attempt to overtake, instead following that the driver at first corner pits "better" and there are no overtakes after pitstop. i.e. the driver who wins the first corner, wins the race. So Vettel should have followed this too, and asked Webber to go off fuel management, so that Vettel had more room to fend off Alonso... instead he used his extra revs to try to pass Mark - clearly unfair team orders and a dumb move.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 18 November 2010 - 07:54.

[slideways]

This really is pointless. it's pretty clear that .....

a) Webber was done no favours by the team in many little ways and they clearly wanted Seb to win

b) That would not have mattered if Mark could learn how to launch the car off the line or how to do a lap around Bahrain or Yabbi Dabbi.

End of thread.

Alfisti to me as the somewhat on the fence guy of the thread, that is not clear at all. To me it was clear that both drivers had as close as technical equality as any team has delivered in the last decade, and that Webber had every opportunity to take the title this year. The Austrian/German faction in the team clearly favour Vettel, but many Webber supports act like this is unexpected, or unacceptable. It is natural human behaviour. Marko has managed Vettel since he was in go-karts and Mateschitz/Tost/Berger are all German speakers. If Aussies were running the team something tells me you would defend their natural support for Webber.

I also think Red Bull do care a lot about Mark and have been amazing to him in terms of his career. They picked him up when Williams dropped him, Ferrari/McLaren weren't interested and the Renault was a dog, and stuck with him through the injuries in 08 when in F1 terms they were well within their rights to drop him (just think of Renault/Trulli, Williams/Heidfeld, Mclaren/Montoya and Toyota/Glock for example). Mateschitz as far as I am aware has given total support to Webber since he joined the team which is one of the reasons I have such respect for the guy.

As to point B, I agree that he had problems with starts and at those two races, but that is oversimplifying his issues this year. He was consistently slower, and made more errors than Vettel (or at least at more critical times ie. Q3 runs).

Anyway for me, at the end of the season, coming up to the end of this thread, and the end of a decade of watching Mark in F1, it would be it would be really nice if the Webber supporters could just put the excuses away and admit that he has no one else to blame this year for not being Champion.

[GeoffR]

Anyway for me, at the end of the season, coming up to the end of this thread, and the end of a decade of watching Mark in F1, it would be it would be really nice if the Webber supporters could just put the excuses away and admit that he has no one else to blame this year for not being Champion.

Have to agree with this, he had the title in his hands at Korea and threw it away with an unforced error - spin & crash. Just think, if he had kept it on the island & followed Vettel around - inherited win & title pretty much in the bag. I'll still be supporting him 100% in 2011 though!

[valuk]

Alfisti to me as the somewhat on the fence guy of the thread, that is not clear at all. To me it was clear that both drivers had as close as technical equality as any team has delivered in the last decade, and that Webber had every opportunity to take the title this year. The Austrian/German faction in the team clearly favour Vettel, but many Webber supports act like this is unexpected, or unacceptable. It is natural human behaviour. Marko has managed Vettel since he was in go-karts and Mateschitz/Tost/Berger are all German speakers. If Aussies were running the team something tells me you would defend their natural support for Webber.

I also think Red Bull do care a lot about Mark and have been amazing to him in terms of his career. They picked him up when Williams dropped him, Ferrari/McLaren weren't interested and the Renault was a dog, and stuck with him through the injuries in 08 when in F1 terms they were well within their rights to drop him (just think of Renault/Trulli, Williams/Heidfeld, Mclaren/Montoya and Toyota/Glock for example). Mateschitz as far as I am aware has given total support to Webber since he joined the team which is one of the reasons I have such respect for the guy.

As to point B, I agree that he had problems with starts and at those two races, but that is oversimplifying his issues this year. He was consistently slower, and made more errors than Vettel (or at least at more critical times ie. Q3 runs).

Anyway for me, at the end of the season, coming up to the end of this thread, and the end of a decade of watching Mark in F1, it would be it would be really nice if the Webber supporters could just put the excuses away and admit that he has no one else to blame this year for not being Champion.

+1

[wewantourdarbyback]

Well, as you have done it would be nice if the other non-Webber fans were able to recognise the same thing - but generally most seem happy to judge his year on the last race unfortunately...

Troll

[DILLIGAF]

Anyway for me, at the end of the season, coming up to the end of this thread, and the end of a decade of watching Mark in F1, it would be it would be really nice if the Webber supporters could just put the excuses away and admit that he has no one else to blame this year for not being Champion.

I agree slideways. But it would also be nice to hear Webber fans like yourself complimenting Mark for his best season in F1. You've followed him for a decade through all his ups & downs so i'm just amazed that even though he's won 6 races & had 20 podiums in two seasons you still make posts pointing out his weaknesses & nothing about his strengths. Just read your last post mate. Not one positive mention about Mark. Not one positive & you're a massive fan? Or just a fence sitter like you said?

I have no problem with saying Seb had Mark's measure this year & i've stated it many times if you check my post history. But i find it difficult to sit back & watch so called supporters criticising all the time. We all know that Mark is not as naturally gifted as some drivers but he always has a crack & that is the sign of a fierce competitor. That's called Aussie grit & determination. I'm a proud member of the Fanatics & have followed Aussies in many sports in my travels around the world. We support them no matter what, even if they're **** or have no hope of winning. We urge them on & cheer any success not sit back & criticize or apologise for their failings. Especially when we have no idea of what pressures & difficulties they face at the pinnacle of their chosen sport.

So maybe next year it would be really nice for some supporters to actually show support!!

Edited by DILLIGAF, 18 November 2010 - 09:56.

[Black Widow]

I don't give a shite what any of you think!!!

O.K. Now I have your attention

Just want to say this, to me, Seb has had a phenomenal season and thoroughly deserves the WDC (and I really mean that)

.... BUT and I say BUT ....

the driver/pilot (depending your ethnicity, persuasion, sexuality - take your choice) that has impressed me the most during the season, through sheer dominance on a particular day, has been Webber not Vettel.

Purists may say that the WDC is the best driver over the season and so it is (the points affirm this), but to me the best driver/pilot is the driver/pilot that is "untouchable" at some stage during the season and to me in a number of races this season the only driver that achieved that status was Webber, not Vettel, not Hamilton, not Alonso, not whomever. Webber on his days was sheer brilliant, I can not think of any other races/driver/pilot during the season that came even close to matching that brilliance.

You may say it was the car, you may say it was the circumstances, you may say whatever (and it is your right and privileged to do so) but I look at F1 as being the premier motorsport and look for the premier performance during the season. In my opinion, this performance belonged to Webber and nobody else came even close.

Now before you accuse me of being a biased Webber fan, I am not. I believe he a good driver along with Hamilton, Kubica, Alonso, Vettel, Button, et al, but I do believe Webber is the driver/pilot that this season has been the only one to attain that "untouchable" status during a race.

My opinion and my opinion only, and I understand your opinion will/may differ, I respect that!

[Callahan]

I don't give a shite what any of you think!!!

O.K. Now I have your attention

Just want to say this, to me, Seb has had a phenomenal season and thoroughly deserves the WDC (and I really mean that)

.... BUT and I say BUT ....

the driver/pilot (depending your ethnicity, persuasion, sexuality - take your choice) that has impressed me the most during the season, through sheer dominance on a particular day, has been Webber not Vettel.

Purists may say that the WDC is the best driver over the season and so it is (the points affirm this), but to me the best driver/pilot is the driver/pilot that is "untouchable" at some stage during the season and to me in a number of races this season the only driver that achieved that status was Webber, not Vettel, not Hamilton, not Alonso, not whomever. Webber on his days was sheer brilliant, I can not think of any other races/driver/pilot during the season that came even close to matching that brilliance.

You may say it was the car, you may say it was the circumstances, you may say whatever (and it is your right and privileged to do so) but I look at F1 as being the premier motorsport and look for the premier performance during the season. In my opinion, this performance belonged to Webber and nobody else came even close.

Now before you accuse me of being a biased Webber fan, I am not. I believe he a good driver along with Hamilton, Kubica, Alonso, Vettel, Button, et al, but I do believe Webber is the driver/pilot that this season has been the only one to attain that "untouchable" status during a race.

My opinion and my opinion only, and I understand your opinion will/may differ, I respect that!

Monaco is a good example I reckon.At a track were pumpkin sized gonads are needed Mark destroyed the field. If there were no safety cars, He would have won by half a lap.

[slideways]

I'll still be supporting him 100% in 2011 though!

Me too Geoff, although as I said in the other thread I don't know how it will go for me as an F1 fan next year. From the top drivers I already liked Webber and Alonso, and now I have taken a shining to Vettel and dare I say it ... Lewis Hamilton (can't believe I would say that last year, but great performances in 2010 and he has grown up a bit). I also think Rosberg and Schumi could both surprise. Let's hope the cars are as close but I am not so sure with KERS and new tyres.

Malaysia for example...

webber screwed up his season. Korea and Valencia of course major stuff-ups.

However MANY times he was faster, and did not attempt to overtake, instead following that the driver at first corner pits "better" and there are no overtakes after pitstop. i.e. the driver who wins the first corner, wins the race. So Vettel should have followed this too, and asked Webber to go off fuel management, so that Vettel had more room to fend off Alonso... instead he used his extra revs to try to pass Mark - clearly unfair team orders and a dumb move.

@Malaysia It was only in the first stint when Webber purpled on lap 10 that he got close. Vettel instantly went a tenth quicker on 11 and from then on had him covered. I'm doubtful Webber would have pulled much of a gap if he was leading but who knows.

Red Bull have said from the start the drivers are free to race. I agree that by their own words, as pole sitter and race leader Webber should have had priority from the team at Turkey if they had to choose between the drivers. Their claim that they had to protect Vettel (from Hamilton btw not Alonso) was utterly ridiculous. But again if we want to be fair, how about pointing out that Vettel hunted down Webber and was on his ass even before Webber turned engine down? After that we really don't know what actually happened between Horner/Newey/Marko/Rocky/Pillbeam on the pitwall. To me the suggestion that Vettel was fully aware of Mark's engine situation and had the power in the team to influence them to give away his team mate's lead seems extreme. That's Alonso territory, but maybe next year.

Talking about Webber being on Vettel's tail, to me it is just down to **** aero, and Vettel learning not to outbrake himself and throw it off like he's done before when being attacked. But again to be fair, Vettel was able to build and hold a gap at just as many races as we saw Webber glued to his tail.

Since you brought up team orders, I think there is a question mark over Monza still as to Vettel's engine problems. It seems way too convenient to me that it would happen just as Webber needed to get past, and they would suddenly vanish and he'd be allowed to go for fastest lap at the end (not that I have any problem with them doing this, as they were on different strategies and it was for lower positions anyway).

Anyway, with all the talk of Turkey and Vettel's racecraft (to which I subscribed if you read post #1 of this thread), people have not mentioned that Vettel did pass Webber under race conditions in Shanghai, and Webber did not pass Vettel all year.

I agree slideways. But it would also be nice to hear Webber fans like yourself complimenting Mark for his best season in F1. You've followed him for a decade through all his ups & downs so i'm just amazed that even though he's won 6 races & had 20 podiums in two seasons you still make posts pointing out his weaknesses & nothing about his strengths. Just read your last post mate. Not one positive mention about Mark. Not one positive & you're a massive fan? Or just a fence sitter like you said?

I have no problem with saying Seb had Mark's measure this year & i've stated it many times if you check my post history. But i find it difficult to sit back & watch so called supporters criticising all the time. We all know that Mark is not as naturally gifted as some drivers but he always has a crack & that is the sign of a fierce competitor. That's called Aussie grit & determination. I'm a proud member of the Fanatics & have followed Aussies in many sports in my travels around the world. We support them no matter what, even if they're **** or have no hope of winning. We urge them on & cheer any success not sit back & criticize or apologise for their failings. Especially when we have no idea of what pressures & difficulties they face at the pinnacle of their chosen sport.

So maybe next year it would be really nice for some supporters to actually show support!!

I was a big fan in the early years but right now I am more towards a fence sitter! For many years here I have been pro-Webber and defending him, but it's difficult for me to be positive after what's happened.

Being Australian only made me interested in Webber, not a supporter. I supported him because to me he was the stand out driver in the midfield for 3 or 4 years. I guess that's the difference between me and most Webber supporters and why we conflict on opinion here of late.

[jez33]

Mark's results this year have been his best, obviously, but the season itself has been far from "his best". Its about maximising your potential and the car's potential, and Mark has done very poorly in the second half - relative to what the car was able to do and relative to what his team mate was able to do. Yes sure no driver had a perfect season but Mark suffered disproportionately compared to the other 4 contenders from Silverstone onwards. Mediocre races mixed up with some absolute disasters.

Interestingly I feel very similar to slideways in that I became a fan seeing Mark outperform all those midfield junks throughout his career, but left extremely disappointed now he has a tier one seat. Maybe a part of that is because he now has a tier one team mate, but then again maybe a part of me was secretly wanting to believe Mark himself could become a tier one driver. This season has proved that is simply not the case.

[slideways]

Yeah to be fair, if he had a Buemi for a teammate this year and took the title I would probably be happy fan #537,261.

[DILLIGAF]

I was a big fan in the early years but right now I am more towards a fence sitter! For many years here I have been pro-Webber and defending him, but it's difficult for me to be positive after what's happened.Being Australian only made me interested in Webber, not a supporter. I supported him because to me he was the stand out driver in the midfield for 3 or 4 years. I guess that's the difference between me and most Webber supporters and why we conflict on opinion here of late.

Fair enough. So you aren't a big fan of his. At least you're honest enough to admit it mate. Just out of interest what happened with Webber that has made it difficult for you to be positive?

Edited by DILLIGAF, 18 November 2010 - 11:53.

[harrows]

+1 Many Webber fans purposely omit, or conveniently forget Webber finished behind Hamilton in the WDC by 10 points. Considering the Mclaren was nowhere until the German GP.(where Hammy scored no points) Quite frankly this should be an embarrassment to Webber. The Red Bull was the second best car until midway, where upon it then became the best. So in reality Webber had a whole f**king season to gather good points,(against basically 4 other drivers) where Hamilton had half a season plus liegate points deducted and failed miserably to do so. But yet I'm told to look at other factors. Like what I ask? Like his Q2 speed. A convoluted explanation of his speed when it doesn't matter. Minus his team mate, all Webber had to worry about in 2009 was Button, Rubens and Hamilton, and he was incapable of delivering the goods consistently. This year will be even worse, because the Ferrari's are back! Any mistake or non finish will result in Alonso and Massa extracting the maximum points their cars are capable of. Bahrain 2010 was a perfect example. Webber will not be in the championship hunt by the 7th race, if he is expecting Hamilton, Massa and Alonso to have Button type results/finishes like Button had in the 2nd half of 2009.

Theres a simple way to solve this. I'll lay a bet with any Webber fan, that Webber finishes the 2010 season outside of the top 4 in the WDC. IE; 5th place or lower. I'll even go as far as starting the season from the Australian GP 2010 and not include the Bahrain points in the final tally. This is how much I rate Webber. This is despite him driver a car, that on its performance in Bahrain, looks like the fastest car on the grid. Any takers? Believe me when I say "this is a bet with my head" and not the heart. Webber is sh1te. He's just another loud mouth Aussie, who talks a good fight but in reality is out of his depth. There is no way minus injury that he is capable of beating Vettal, Alonso, Massa or Hamilton over a season. He just doesn't have it in him.

Hmmmmm...what do we have here...an outlandish prediction, much? How on earth did a 'sh1te loudmouth Aussie' finish in front of your beloved Lewie (who wasn't even in the top 3)?

[Zava]

Hmmmmm...what do we have here...an outlandish prediction, much? How on earth did a 'sh1te loudmouth Aussie' finish in front of your beloved Lewie (who wasn't even in the top 3)?

it's only because of the new points system!

with last years scoring:
1. Vettel 104
2. Alonso 101
3. Hamilton 100
4. Webber 97

Webbo still in the top4, though.

[DILLIGAF]

Hmmmmm...what do we have here...an outlandish prediction, much? How on earth did a 'sh1te loudmouth Aussie' finish in front of your beloved Lewie (who wasn't even in the top 3)?

Great pick up harrows!! A shite loudmouth Aussie who grabbed 5 poles, 4 wins, 10 podiums!!

[jato]

I have to agree in many instances with slideways and especially jez33. As I said after the race in Korea and agreeing with Sir Jack, Webber lost the championship right there and then. All he had to do is keep the car on the tarmac and bring home a good load of points and the championship was almost in the bag.

Things learned from both drivers:

- Webber has bogey tracks (Vettel does not though this year he improved his Valencia showing speed wise, race was a completely different story)
- Webber does not have the mental toughness going into the end of a championship despite what everyone says (the same reason why he did not win F3000, in Korea and Abu Dhabi he did not like he even wanted to be there)
- Webber is too cautious when in the lead causing Monza and Valencia to end up being poor races when he should have made the most of it.
- Webber has improved his consistency (but is still crash happy) but needs to improve it to the point where he is making the maximum out of the car 5 races straight etc. and not 2 littered with poor finishes the next event after
- Webber needs to improve his starts
- Webber can play the political game off track and is blunt, but sometimes it does not help his situation (Brazil, rumoured McLaren drive to replace Alonso)

- Vettel is blindingly quick (I always thought Webber was superfast in qualifying hammering his old team-mates, but after Vettel has done the same to him there is no question Vettel is quick)
- Vettel needs to improve his racecraft (something Webber is much better at despite his crashes and being marginal at times on the racetrack)
- Vettel needs to improve his mental toughness during the race
- Vettel needs to be less of car breaker to help his own chances (Barcelona comes to mind, running over kerbs both in Turkey Qly and Monza)

- Both drivers are brillant when out in front.

What I noticed and a lot of reasons why Webber finished ahead of his team-mates was he was able to qualify ahead and have car position. Except whenever Webber was crash happy and inconsistent - part of reason why Heidfield was able to outscore him during his season at Williams. Now the tables are turned, except Vettel is much quicker and able to match/go faster than Webber.

All this time, I too thought Webber would make the step up with the tier 1 guys i.e. Hamilton, Alonso and yes I'll put Vettel in that bracket once he improves his racecraft, but this hasn't happened. He is not fast enough on all tracks and that will put him at a disadvantage every time. I expect him to have another great year next year but I don't see him mounting a WDC without improving in all those areas. It will be even harder with KERs being introduced as this will play more into Vettel's hands.

It was a great season for Webber but is slowly disintegrated which is what is most disappointing. He is still a brillant driver but IMO will never be considered part of the elite tier 1 group.

Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel
Webber/Kubica/Rosberg
Button (While Button is a brillant strategic racer, he will never have the speed that those guys have above unless the car is absolutely in the sweet spot for him, otherwise he can be way off the pace)
Massa (Excellent 2008 but does not have the pace, consistency and was/isn't great in the rain. I've never considered him worthy of the Ferrari drive in the first place)
....

As DC says, you are only as good as your last race. Given Webber's last race of the season was pretty much his worst of the whole season both in qualifying and race you can see why all fans feel like he isn't as good as he was mid-season. Opinions will change again next year, that's how fickle we all are. If Newey produces another stunner next year which I bet he will, Vettel IMO will be on his way to his next championship.

Hey, at least it wasn't a drubbing like Alonso gave to Fisi once he got his hands on a top car. We know that Webber can compete at the front and dominate races. He just needs to do that more often.

[DILLIGAF]

As I said after the race in Korea and agreeing with Sir Jack, Webber lost the championship right there and then. All he had to do is keep the car on the tarmac and bring home a good load of points and the championship was almost in the bag.

Things learned from both drivers:

- Webber has bogey tracks (Vettel does not though this year he improved his Valencia showing speed wise, race was a completely different story)
- Webber does not have the mental toughness going into the end of a championship despite what everyone says (the same reason why he did not win F3000, in Korea and Abu Dhabi he did not like he even wanted to be there)
- Webber is too cautious when in the lead causing Monza and Valencia to end up being poor races when he should have made the most of it.
- Webber has improved his consistency (but is still crash happy) but needs to improve it to the point where he is making the maximum out of the car 5 races straight etc. and not 2 littered with poor finishes the next event after
- Webber needs to improve his starts
- Webber can play the political game off track and is blunt, but sometimes it does not help his situation (Brazil, rumoured McLaren drive to replace Alonso)

- Vettel is blindingly quick (I always thought Webber was superfast in qualifying hammering his old team-mates, but after Vettel has done the same to him there is no question Vettel is quick)
- Vettel needs to improve his racecraft (something Webber is much better at despite his crashes and being marginal at times on the racetrack)
- Vettel needs to improve his mental toughness during the race
- Vettel needs to be less of car breaker to help his own chances (Barcelona comes to mind, running over kerbs both in Turkey Qly and Monza)

- Both drivers are brillant when out in front.

What I noticed and a lot of reasons why Webber finished ahead of his team-mates was he was able to qualify ahead and have car position. Except whenever Webber was crash happy and inconsistent - part of reason why Heidfield was able to outscore him during his season at Williams. Now the tables are turned, except Vettel is much quicker and able to match/go faster than Webber.

All this time, I too thought Webber would make the step up with the tier 1 guys i.e. Hamilton, Alonso and yes I'll put Vettel in that bracket once he improves his racecraft, but this hasn't happened. He is not fast enough on all tracks and that will put him at a disadvantage every time. I expect him to have another great year next year but I don't see him mounting a WDC without improving in all those areas. It will be even harder with KERs being introduced as this will play more into Vettel's hands.

It was a great season for Webber but is slowly disintegrated which is what is most disappointing. He is still a brillant driver but IMO will never be considered part of the elite tier 1 group.

Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel
Webber/Kubica/Rosberg
Button (While Button is a brillant strategic racer, he will never have the speed that those guys have above unless the car is absolutely in the sweet spot for him, otherwise he can be way off the pace)
Massa (Excellent 2008 but does not have the pace, consistency and was/isn't great in the rain. I've never considered him worthy of the Ferrari drive in the first place)
....

As DC says, you are only as good as your last race. Given Webber's last race of the season was pretty much his worst of the whole season both in qualifying and race you can see why all fans feel like he isn't as good as he was mid-season. Opinions will change again next year, that's how fickle we all are. If Newey produces another stunner next year which I bet he will, Vettel IMO will be on his way to his next championship.

Hey, at least it wasn't a drubbing like Alonso gave to Fisi once he got his hands on a top car. We know that Webber can compete at the front and dominate races. He just needs to do that more often.

Agree with all of what you say pretty much. But the best thing about your post is that it's balanced & objective imho. You acknowledge both driver's. Compliment their strengths & point out their weaknesses in your opinion. A pity some others can't look at things in the same manner that you do.

[flyer121]

I was a big fan in the early years but right now I am more towards a fence sitter! For many years here I have been pro-Webber and defending him, but it's difficult for me to be positive after what's happened.

Being Australian only made me interested in Webber, not a supporter. I supported him because to me he was the stand out driver in the midfield for 3 or 4 years. I guess that's the difference between me and most Webber supporters and why we conflict on opinion here of late.

Glad that you brought that out ...
Being a compatriot is not enough to become a fan of some one in an individual discipline like F1 as I have found with Karthikeyan and Chandhok.

But Webber has excelled in the sport enough for him to be worthy of getting fanworship (from his own country or otherwise ).
And I always respect people who can bring even a slight amount of justification into their liking a certain driver.

For instance , I have a couple of German friends who do not like Vettel so much and know plenty English people who are not fans of either Button or Hamilton but they like other drivers for their driving style or other behavioural aspects.

Edited by flyer121, 18 November 2010 - 12:30.

[flyer121]

I have to agree in many instances with slideways and especially jez33. As I said after the race in Korea and agreeing with Sir Jack, Webber lost the championship right there and then. All he had to do is keep the car on the tarmac and bring home a good load of points and the championship was almost in the bag.
~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~

Hey, at least it wasn't a drubbing like Alonso gave to Fisi once he got his hands on a top car. We know that Webber can compete at the front and dominate races. He just needs to do that more often.

Pretty good analysis this!

Although , looking at some reports and posts here , I wonder if Seb needs improvement in the car set-up department as well.

[WhiteBlue]

- Vettel needs to improve his mental toughness during the race
- Vettel needs to be less of car breaker to help his own chances (Barcelona comes to mind, running over kerbs both in Turkey Qly and Monza)

With all due respect I would point out some opposition to that view.

Sebastian has shown some impressive mental toughness in Silverstone. He had a start problem which was equally true for both Red Bull drivers this season. It looks like they had a problem with the consistency of the clutch. Then his left rear tyre was cut by Hamilton's front wing in Copse corner. If anybody could have avoided that racing accident then it was Hamilton who did not leave enough room. Seb was right on the curb and he could not have positioned his car any better through that corner. I do not blame Hamilton for the misjudgment. These things simply happen. Seb lost a massive amount of time and had to fight his way from the back of the field up to seventh. A safety car helped a little bit but he still had to pass seven or eight cars on track. He never gave up and fought to the last lap to take seventh from Sutil. It takes some determination to keep up pushing. I was also impressed by the way he kept fighting in Monza when he was hit by that brake problem mid race.

The car breaker moniker is mainly rubbish as we can easily show by the Turkey example. A fastener came loose on the anti roll bar linkage and due to this fault the lower suspension wishbone was damaged. Screws simply are not supposed to come loose during a session. It has nothing to do with the way the driver uses the car. The mechanics obviously did not secure the fastener as they should have done. In all of the cases of massive points loss which happened to Sebastian due to technical failures while leading the race he was never involved at all. Neither the spark plug in Bahrain, the wheel nut or wheel rim in Australia nor the conrod in Korea failed due to the driver doing anything wrong. Still some people keep repeating these stories without looking at the facts.