8165 replies to this topic

[Ricardo F1]

Which ones ?

I have not seen ANY posted in this thread (although I have not read every post)
I would not call the more debated elements of 2010 "conspiracy theories"

MW didnt get Q3 final runs when he expected too?
Turkey was an attempt at team orders without getting fined ?
RBR have been designing the cars around SV and his personal preference since 2009 ?
RBR refused to allow MW to use the break pads he had been using since day one in F1 and made him switch to SVs preferred brand ?
RBR have asked MW to hold station behind SV when he could have passed him easily ?

I would hardly consider these things "conspiracy theories"
The exact details could be debated endlessly.
The impact on the WDC or points or drivers mental state are also intangible.
However they and many other things did occur and there is extensive evidence to back them up

No there isn't. None whatsoever with the possible exception of the Q3 bit once.

[DarthRonzo]

Mate there are no plans to abandon Webbo now after all these years..... his true supporters will be still be cheering him on next season. I still BELIEVE he can win the drivers championship.... Mark will be stronger next year Im sure of it

Yes, Webber as been learning plenty from Vettel.
If you just compare his 2009 performance with 2010, MW got much closer.
Let's see if he can sustain this pace towards 2011.

[pazza]

Yes, Webber as been learning plenty from Vettel.
If you just compare his 2009 performance with 2010, MW got much closer.
Let's see if he can sustain this pace towards 2011.

No doubt that Mark may have picked up few tricks from Seb along the way but I cant help but feel that Marks 2009 performance was more affected by his accident and lack of fitness.

Now with a season under his belt where he was in a genuine fight for the championship, I believe he will be better for it.... better able to deal with the pressure that comes with that situation. Remember this year out of the five contenders, Mark was the only one who had not actually been in that position before, all totally new despite his experience in F1.

I got my fingers crossed that Pirelli will produce a good racey tyre with alot of degradation which I think will suit Marks smoother driving style, and next year we will see Mark take it right up to Seb again in 2011 and with a little luck the drivers championship. I can only dream

Edited by pazza, 28 November 2010 - 00:51.

[DarthRonzo]

No doubt that Mark may have picked up few tricks from Seb along the way but I cant help but feel that Marks 2009 performance was more affected by his accident and lack of fitness.

Now with a season under his belt where he was in a genuine fight for the championship, I believe he will be better for it.... better able to deal with the pressure that comes with that situation. Remember this year out of the five contenders, Mark was the only one who had not actually been in that position before, all totally new despite his experience in F1.

I got my fingers crossed that Pirelli will produce a good racey tyre with alot of degradation which I think will suit Marks smoother driving style, and next year we will see Mark take it right up to Seb again in 2011 and with a little luck the drivers championship. I can only dream

It's amazing.

The more his fans try to defend Webber, the more they turn him in.

Even though Webber lied to his employee about his injuries, Mate_schitz decided to stand by him... just to be betrayed by him the next year.

Being inexperienced in WDC shodows is not a favourable handicap to him.
Remember Alonso has a similar career to Webber's and now, more than a 2xWDC, is The Master Manipulator of championships.
OK, I understand Vettel is faster than Webber and also a Stone Cold Killer after that four race spree at the end of the year.
But how about losing to Alonso with a lesser car ?

Good luck on your hopes and dreams in 2011, Pazza
Cause Webber had a lot of luck in 2010 and it's unlikely to have it all again.

[DarthRonzo]

Mate there are no plans to abandon Webbo now after all these years..... his true supporters will be still be cheering him on next season. I still BELIEVE he can win the drivers championship.... Mark will be stronger next year Im sure of it

I'm not so sure mate.

Melboune Park is down.

[Black Widow]

YAWN....

[pazza]

It's amazing.

The more his fans try to defend Webber, the more they turn him in.

Even though Webber lied to his employee about his injuries, Mate_schitz decided to stand by him... just to be betrayed by him the next year.

Being inexperienced in WDC shodows is not a favourable handicap to him.
Remember Alonso has a similar career to Webber's and now, more than a 2xWDC, is The Master Manipulator of championships.
OK, I understand Vettel is faster than Webber and also a Stone Cold Killer after that four race spree at the end of the year.
But how about losing to Alonso with a lesser car ?

Good luck on your hopes and dreams in 2011, Pazza
Cause Webber had a lot of luck in 2010 and it's unlikely to have it all again.

Ok now your just being antagonistic. Firstly although Mark and Freds careers have been similar in timespan and the fact that they both started in a Minardi thats about where all the similarities end. By my count Alonso has driven three or four championship contending cars .... Mark just one... you cannot count RB5 cos I can say as an avid Webber fan that I felt he was never really in that championship for well documented reasons.

Im sure if Mark had have taken that drive alongside Alonso at Renault in 05 rather than taking the Williams drive his career may have panned out very differently. Of course I'm not saying he would have beaten Alonso, I dont think he would have.... but would he have gotten spanked like Fisi? No fukn way.

In the end, the fact of the matter is Mark is a top draw driver whether most of the haters on this board like it or not and if it wasnt for the bad luck of being partnered with the quali monster that is Seb Vettel and his illusive tenth Webber would have wrapped the 2010 championship up many many races before yabi dabbi, he is/was more than capable of it.

Lets wait and see what happens next year ey ;)

[DarthRonzo]

Ok now your just being antagonistic. Firstly although Mark and Freds careers have been similar in timespan and the fact that they both started in a Minardi thats about where all the similarities end. By my count Alonso has driven three or four championship contending cars .... Mark just one... you cannot count RB5 cos I can say as an avid Webber fan that I felt he was never really in that championship for well documented reasons.

Im sure if Mark had have taken that drive alongside Alonso at Renault in 05 rather than taking the Williams drive his career may have panned out very differently. Of course I'm not saying he would have beaten Alonso, I dont think he would have.... but would he have gotten spanked like Fisi? No fukn way.

In the end, the fact of the matter is Mark is a top draw driver whether most of the haters on this board like it or not and if it wasnt for the bad luck of being partnered with the quali monster that is Seb Vettel and his illusive tenth Webber would have wrapped the 2010 championship up many many races before yabi dabbi, he is/was more than capable of it.

Lets wait and see what happens next year ey ;)

Nice post.

Webber evolved a lot in the last two years and will carry on his lessons wherever he will go.

What really bores me is the lame excuses from the Webber camp regarding to his faillures, like the "Webber is taller, so he has a handicap that explains the 0.1 sec gap in qualy".
Well, Justin Wilson was much more than Webber, back in his Minardi times, but nobody no said such things to defend little Justin.

[WhiteBlue]

The final verdict!

There is no doubt in my mind that he (Sebastian Vettel) is the fastest driver in Formula One at the moment.

It would be good to close the thread now. I'm afraid potential additional posts will lack clarity compared to Sir Stirling.

Edit for typo.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 28 November 2010 - 15:13.

[Black Widow]

What really bores me is the lame excuses from the Webber camp regarding to his faillures, like the "Webber is taller, so he has a handicap that explains the 0.1 sec gap in qualy".

The final verdict!
It would be god to close the thread now. I'm afraid potential additional posts will lack clarity compared to Sir Stirling.

YAWN....

[slideways]

It is terribly late but here are my notes on their races. Let me know if I missed anything or made any errors.

Bahrain
Webber: Q. 6th, R. 8th, Engine issue at first corner and bad pit stop.
Vettel: Q. 1st, R. 4th, Spark plug failure while leading.

Australia
Webber: Q. 2nd, R. 9th - Bad pit strategy, crashed with Hamilton.
Vettel: Q. 1st, R. DNF - Wheel nut failure while leading.

Malaysia
Webber: Q. 1st, R. 2nd - Passed by Vettel at start.
Vettel: Q. 2nd, R. 1st - Won the race.

China
Webber: Q. 2nd, R. 8th - Went wide at SC restart after contact with Hamilton.
Vettel: Q. 1st, R. 6th - Scrappy race but passed Webber on track.

Spain
Webber: Q. 1st, R. 1st - Pole and win.
Vettel: Q. 2nd, R. 3rd - Brake failure during race. Made podium after Hamilton's DNF.

Monaco
Webber: Q. 1st, R. 1st - Pole and win.
Vettel: Q. 3rd, R. 2nd - Finished second. The team claimed a chassis defect for the last two races (front suspension mount).

Turkey
Webber: Q. 1st, R. 3rd - Led from pole. Contact with Vettel, finished 3rd.
Vettel: Q. 3rd, R. DNF - Broken roll bar in Q3. Crashed with Webber, parked car with rear puncture (may have made it back to pits).

Canada
Webber: Q. 7th, R. 5th. Qualified 2nd with 5 place grid penalty due to gearbox change.
Vettel: Q. 2nd, R. 4th. Poor strategy, gearbox issues during race.

Valencia
Webber: Q. 2nd, R. DNF - Dropped many positions at the start and then crashed into Kovalainen.
Vettel: Q. 1st. R. 1st - Pole and win.

Great Britain
Webber: Q. 2nd, R. 1st - Passed Vettel at the start and won race.
Vettel: Q. 1st, R. 7th - Right Rear puncture by Hamilton at first corner.

Germany
Webber: Q. 4th, R. 6th - Oil issues during race.
Vettel: Q. 1st, R. 3rd - Passed by Alonso and Massa at the start.

Hungary
Webber: Q. 2nd, R. 1st - Passed by Alonso at start. Used strategy to regain position then took lead after Vettel penalty.
Vettel: Q. 1st, R. 3rd - Drive through penalty dropped him to 3rd.

Belgium
Webber: Q. 1st, R. 2nd - Dropped to 6th at start. Finished 2nd after those ahead had problems.
Vettel: Q. 4th, R. 15th - Crashed into Button and was given a drive-through penalty.

Italy
Webber: Q. 4th, R. 6th - Fell to 9th on first lap.
Vettel: Q. 6th, R. 4th - Engine issues during race.

Singapore
Webber: Q. 5th, R. 3rd - Jumped the McLarens via strategy and crashed with Hamilton.
Vettel: Q. 2nd, R. 2nd - Unable to pass Alonso and followed him home.

Japan
Webber: Q. 2nd, R. 2nd - Followed Vettel to flag.
Vettel: Q. 1st, R. 1st - Pole and win.

Korea
Webber: Q. 2nd, R. DNF - Crashed from P2 early in the race.
Vettel: Q. 1st, R. DNF - Engine failure while leading.

Brazil
Webber: Q. 2nd, R. 2nd - Followed Vettel to flag.
Vettel: Q. 1st, R. 1st - Pole and win.

Abu Dhabi
Webber: Q. 5th, R. 8th - Bad strategy, unable to pass Alonso.
Vettel: Q. 1st, R. 1st - Pole and win.

[goingthedistance]

"World champion Sebastian Vettel revealed that during the showdown race in Abu Dhabi he asked his engineer not to tell him what position his rivals were in, clearly not wanting to have his hopes built up and then potentially shattered as Felipe Massa’s were in Brazil in 2008. "

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/

Question, if Vettel was running in 1st, Webber in 2nd and Alonso in 3rd but Vettel had instructed his engineer to not tell him what position his rivals were in, how could he ever have known that he may have had to give way to Webber for Red Bull to win the WDC had things panned out that way?

Red Bull made a point of saying it would have to be Sebastian's decision, yet Sebastian has made it clear he was deliberately "flying blind" so to speak and could never have been in a place to make that decision. Willful ignorance? It furthers my belief that Sebastian would never had given up that win (and I'm not sure I believe he should have, but the point still stands).

The supposed "radio problems" in the last third of the race just add to the intrigue.

[apoka]

Question, if Vettel was running in 1st, Webber in 2nd and Alonso in 3rd but Vettel had instructed his engineer to not tell him what position his rivals were in, how could he ever have known that he may have had to give way to Webber for Red Bull to win the WDC had things panned out that way?

By using his mirrors.

Btw. he already mentioned that he would move over for Webber for the WDC if he can't win it himself.

[DarthRonzo]

By using his mirrors.

Uhmmm... maybe binoculars.

[SK99]

"World champion Sebastian Vettel revealed that during the showdown race in Abu Dhabi he asked his engineer not to tell him what position his rivals were in, clearly not wanting to have his hopes built up and then potentially shattered as Felipe Massa’s were in Brazil in 2008. "

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/

Question, if Vettel was running in 1st, Webber in 2nd and Alonso in 3rd but Vettel had instructed his engineer to not tell him what position his rivals were in, how could he ever have known that he may have had to give way to Webber for Red Bull to win the WDC had things panned out that way?

Red Bull made a point of saying it would have to be Sebastian's decision, yet Sebastian has made it clear he was deliberately "flying blind" so to speak and could never have been in a place to make that decision. Willful ignorance? It furthers my belief that Sebastian would never had given up that win (and I'm not sure I believe he should have, but the point still stands).

The supposed "radio problems" in the last third of the race just add to the intrigue.

IIRC in one of Vettel's radio communications he said put the info on the pitboard, and also he said he was watching the race on the screens at points, so he knew where everyone was that was concerning his position in the lead and a potential change without his engineer babbling away at him I would think.

It was always his intention I would imagine that if it came to it moving over on the last corner on the final lap, so if needs be he'd have opened back up communications at the start of the last sector at the earliest in the event of seeing Webber in P2 at the start of the final lap IMO.

[goingthedistance]

IIRC in one of Vettel's radio communications he said put the info on the pitboard, and also he said he was watching the race on the screens at points, so he knew where everyone was that was concerning his position in the lead and a potential change without his engineer babbling away at him I would think.

It was always his intention I would imagine that if it came to it moving over on the last corner on the final lap, so if needs be he'd have opened back up communications at the start of the last sector at the earliest in the event of seeing Webber in P2 at the start of the final lap IMO.

Yes, you're probably right. It's all a bit contradictory though. I don't get why he'd tell his engineer "please don't give me the positions of anyone else in the race" and state he didn't know he was WDC until Rocky told him, yet also state he was looking at the TV screens.

One of these mysteries I'll probably never have an answer to.

Kudos to him for the focus. He had an exceptional attitude in the last couple of races.

Edited by goingthedistance, 05 December 2010 - 17:47.