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Argentinian Temporada Series


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#51 fines

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 20:31

Tremendous, Tony! Where do you have all this data from?

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#52 TonyKaye

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Posted 20 October 2000 - 00:06

Fines,
You asked where I obtained my South American sources. Many years ago I had a job which entailed considerable travel in Latin America. During my wanderings I found several second-hand magazine shops. My luggage was always considerably heavier on the return journey.
It paid off, as I wrote a short history of racing in Brazil from 1908 to 1950 and just recently I put together the story of Formula Super Vee for a guy in England. Now it's proving useful for Formule Libre racing in the early post-war years.
Not that all the sources are in Spanish or Portuguese. In the early days, the English magazine Autosport used to include an annual seasonal survey of FL racing, including the Temporada series. Auto Italiana has also proved useful because Italian cars and drivers played such an important part in the events, but unfortunately I don't have a complete set of Auto Italiana.
Unless I suddenly discover a whole new source, which isn't entirely out of the question, I should have the whole document 'completed' by the middle of next week. Not that these things are ever truly finished. It seems to take as long to format the data as to find it in the first place.

#53 Barry Lake

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Posted 20 October 2000 - 15:07

This is the sort of thing that makes this forum such good value. It is enabling many of us to access information that otherwise would be next to impossible for us to find.
Surely, between the lot of us, we can some day accumulate information that will make the Grand Prix & Voiturette series look light-on for information.
Tony, thank you for your efforts.

#54 Don Capps

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Posted 23 October 2000 - 00:50

This past week I happened across a copy of Motor Sport from November 1938. Since it had Nuvolari on the cover and covered the Donington race, naturally I had to read it. However, one of the best parts of it was a three page article by an "eye witness" to the Rio de Janeiro races from 1933 to 1938. Great stuff, albeit not that detailed. It was the account of the 1934 race that I loved:

First man home was a Brazilian who was driving a considerably "hotted up" Ford V8. His time was 3 hrs. 56 mins. 22 secs., a speed of 70.82 k.p.h


Unfortunately, the "Brazilian" was not identified!



#55 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 October 2000 - 03:56

Fangio was racing 'hotted up' Fords and Chevs back then...

#56 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 23 October 2000 - 06:17

Fangio did not race before 1938.

#57 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 October 2000 - 06:55

I'm surprised that you say that, Hans, for I had a book with a picture of a Ford Special he was racing for a garage proprietor or something. I was sure it was mid or even early thirties.

#58 TonyKaye

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Posted 23 October 2000 - 13:36

The winner of the 1934 race was Irineu Correa. His name is not too familiar with race fans because his career was cut short by a fatal accident in the following year's race.
Fangio started racing in 1934, but not in the exalted sphere of Grands Prix and certainly not in a race so far from home as Rio.

#59 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 October 2000 - 19:36

That's more in keeping with my recollection of the book I mention, Tony, and it was close to home all right... probably no further than the limits of his home town.

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#60 TonyKaye

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Posted 26 October 2000 - 18:31

While researching the early post-war Formule Libre races in South America, I came across a reference in the Hull/Slater Alfa Romeo book to Jean Pierre Wimille winning the 1948 "Sao Paolo Grand Prix" (presumably at Interlagos) in an Alfa 308. According to their version Landi was second driving a similar Alfa.
OK, Wimille did drive a 308 in South America at this time, but did he actually win this race or was it Landi? I've read various potted biographies of Wimille, but none of them mention this race.
Can anyone cast further light on this?



#61 Barry Boor

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Posted 26 October 2000 - 19:49

Co-incidence time. On page one of this string the Gavea circuit is mentioned. Yesterday, Darren Galpin obtained a circuit map of that very place.
For those who are not aware, as Darren correctly says it is a district of Rio, and the circuit ran around Sugar Loaf Mountain. The lap speed was VERY slow; only 51 mph in 1954.
It should be available to view on Darren's circuit site any day now.

#62 Darren Galpin

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Posted 27 October 2000 - 06:59

Barry - thanks for the map. I put it into my working area last night, and I have the reply in my outbox....

The Gavea track didn't actually go around Sugar Loaf mountain, but was located a bit to the south west. Sugar Load mountain is in Guanabara Bay, and if you go down Copacabana, Ipanema and Leblon beaches, you arive at Gavea. The track the winds along the coast road from there and up into the hills of the Tijuca forest and back down again. Sugar Loaf mountain just isn't big enough for a race track - for those who remember, it was used in the James Bond film Moonraker, and all it has is a few small access roads.

Hopefully I'll work on my webpage over the weekend, and the new maps from Barry (and Hans if I get my act together) will be posted sometime next week.

Cheers! :)



#63 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 05 November 2000 - 21:11

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I'm surprised that you say that, Hans, for I had a book with a picture of a Ford Special he was racing for a garage proprietor or something. I was sure it was mid or even early thirties.

Yes you were right. Fangio started racing in 1934. The statistical records I have on Fangio all begin in 1938, 39 or 40 and that's where I looked and scewed up. :o

#64 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 November 2000 - 21:43

Someone finding movie of that would be on a real prize, wouldn't they? Unlikely, I guess, but there must have been people like our Clive Gibson around in the Argentine as well...

#65 Michael M

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Posted 13 November 2000 - 09:29

The first list issued by Felix on October 16, IV Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires on 18 Dec 1949, shows under “other entries” Giovanni Bracco with Ferrari 166C # 08C. Anybody knowing more about this potential entry? Frankly spoken, for me it is doubtful, as Bracco only sporadically entered minor circuit races with his Spyder Corsa, be was more specialized in sports car events and hill climbs. # 08C was one of the 1949 works cars, substituted later in season by the new type GP49, it is unlikely that Bracco bought this car, as in 1950 there are no other appearances, he changed his SC against a 166 MM which he entered again in sports car events and hill climbs. It is also unlikely that the SF brought # 08C as 4th car to South America, as it did not appear – also with another driver – in the remaining races of the 1949/50 temporada. So again, anybody having details about this “other entry”?

#66 fines

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Posted 01 December 2000 - 03:23

I have now included all the data from Tony and the rest of you in my latest update of GPChart, the Racing Driver Ranking. Two things stand out as a result of this:

1 - In the final ranking for the year 1947 Luigi Villoresi narrowly tops Jean-Pierre Wimille for first. In another thread it has been argued that Wimille was the outstanding driver of the year, but when you see that these South American races were really "Mini-GPs" in their own right, Villoresi's claim for the top cannot be disregarded too lightly. However, it's a very close run thing and any revelation of hitherto unknown details could still change the outcome.

2 - What I find really amazing is the fact that the races of the 1949/50 Temporada rank amongst the very best of the immediate post-war years. To explain this, in GPChart every race is given a coefficient according to the racing success of the participating drivers over the last twelve months preceding that race, so as to quantify the quality of the entry. The more successful the contestants, the more points are at stake - easy! Usually, the European Grandes Épreuves get the lion's share of the points, but in 1949 the December race in Buenos Aires easily outscored even the Italian GP! Moreover, the first three races of that Temporada (and it would have been four had it not been for some drivers leaving to attend the Rallye MC) ranked second through fourth for all races since WW2 up to that point, only beaten by the Italian GP of 1948!

To sum this up, these races were a lot more important than most people in Europe dare to remember. And the fact that they have been so poorly documented so far is a cause for real pity - Hopefully this joint effort here is a step in the right direction, to reserve a place in history for those races, lest they are forgotten.

Complete GPChart rankings for the years 1945-53 can now be found at http://grand-prix-ra...nnual/index.htm.


#67 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 December 2000 - 03:44

This helps explain the number of drivers... Marimon and Gonzales as well as Fangio... who got to Europe immediately afterwards. But I wonder what part the available money polayed in determining their interest?

#68 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 02 December 2000 - 07:29

Originally posted by TonyKaye
1948 "Sao Paolo Grand Prix" (presumably at Interlagos)....
Wimille did drive a 308 in South America at this time, but did he actually win this race or was it Landi? I've read various potted biographies of Wimille, but none of them mention this race.
Can anyone cast further light on this?


Monkhouse and King-Farlow have Landi the winner from G.Raph also in an Alfa-Romeo. Parra (no car listed) was third.

Also found a reference to the Gavea circuit in a biography of de Graffenried. He won the 1953 Rio de Janeiro GP on the sinuous "Devil's Springboard" mountain circuit at Gavea. He also won the 1953 Sao Paulo GP at Interlagos. Both wins were in his 2-litre sports Maserati.

#69 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 10:12

I’ve just found a report on the 1952 South American races in The Autocar. The results in this thread have been given in a piecemeal fashion so I’m not sure if the info in the magazine is already known or not.

During the month of March the automobile clubs of Argentina and Uruguay staged a series of four formule libre Grand Prix races, of which two were run on the new autodrome at Buenos Aires and two on a 1.5-mile circuit at Piriapolis, near Montevideo. It had been hoped that a considerable contingent of European drivers and cars would cross the Atlantic to take part, but in actual fact the response was poor; two works-entered Simca Gordinis ran in the Argentine races while in Uruguay they were joined by Rosier and Trintignant (Ferrari and Talbot) and Bira with an Osca. The whole series demonstrated the obvious superiority of Fangio, who won every race, driving the Argentine-owned supercharged 2-litre 12-cylinder Ferrari, and established new lap records for each course.

In the Buenos Aires Grand Prix the following cars lined up:
A. Simon and R. Manzon (Simca 1490cc s)
F. Landi (Ferrari 2000cc s, short-chassis)
Pinheiro Piris (Talbot 4500cc, single ignition)
Ruben Abrunhosa (Ferrari 1500cc short-chassis, single-blower)
Nello Pagani (Maserati 2000cc)
Eitel Cantoni (Maserati 4CLT)
J.M. Fangio (Ferrari 2000cc s, long-chassis)
J.F. Gonzalez (Ferrari 2000cc s, short-chassis)
Clemar Bucci (ex-Varzi Alfa Romeo 4600cc s)
Hector Niemitz (Alfa Romeo 3200)
J. Daponte, F. Marques, C. Menditeguy, A. Fontes and A. Pian (Maserati 4CLT)
A.J. Schwelm (Alfa Romeo 2300 sports)

The fastest practice lap had been realized in 2min 1 sec, by Fangio with the long-chassis Ferrari, equivalent to 72.54 mph.

At the start, Gonzalez shot off into the lead, with Fangio behind, while Manzon’s Simca drove slowly into the pits and retired without having completed a lap. Bucci used the tremendous acceleration of his monstrous Alfa to good purpose, and nicked ahead of Landi’s Ferrari. Round the first lap the order was Gonzalez, Fangio, Bucci, Landi, Simon; but Simon dropped out on the third lap, and left Pian (Maserati) in fifth place. Fangio passed Gonzalez on lap 3, and was repassed on lap 7. Then on the tenth circuit, Bucci’s challenge faded out and the leaders had nothing to worry about. They made a play of passing and repassing to excite public interest, and eventually Fangio cantered home, a mere two-tenths of a second ahead of Gonzalez, while Landi appeared quite unable to do anything about it. Schwelm put up a very good show with the sports 2300cc Alfa, but unfortunately cracked up the differential on the fifth lap, and retired when ahead of a number of Grand Prix cars.
Menditeguy drove a fine race, but unfortunately an error by his pit staff resulted in him doing a lap too few, so he lost his certain fourth place and retrograded to sixth. Pagani’s 2-litre Maserati was disappointing, and Abrunhosa’s 1500 cc Ferrari was very noisy but too slow. Pian drove with terrific verve, but his Maserati blew up on the 19th lap; so fourth place went to fast, consistent Jorge Daponte (Maserati 4CLT), while fifth berth was occupied by Eitel Cantoni (Maserati 4CLT).
RESULTS
Race distance: 30 laps (87.72 miles)
1. J.M. Fangio – Ferrari 2000 s, 1h 17m 19.2s, 68.20 mph
2. J.F. Gonzalez – Ferrari 2000 s, 1h 17m 19.4s
3. F. Landi – Ferrari 2000 s, 1h 19m 16.5s
4. J.Daponte – Maserati 1500 s, 29 laps
5. E. Cantoni – Maserati 1500 s, 29 laps
6. C. Menditeguy – Maserati 1500 s, 28 laps
7. A. Fontes – Maserati 1500 s, 28 laps
8. H. Niemitz – Alfa Romeo 3200, 27 laps
9. R. Abrunhosa – Ferrari 1500 s, 27 laps

Fastest Lap: Fangio 2m 29.5s, 70.41 mph


One week later, the second Grand Prix race was held. The same cars took part, except that Menditeguy borrowed Abrunhosa’s 1500cc Ferrari, and Alberto Crespo was driving Peinetti’s unsupercharged Talbot. Also, Pagani abandoned his unblown Maserati in favour of a tremendously vocal Tipo Milano 1500cc supercharged version, and Schwelm drove a 3800cc Alfa Romeo.
The start saw the same thing as the previous time; Gonzalez jumped into the lead and was passed by Fangio, but this time there was no passing and repassing. Fangio went into first place and held it. Bucci again took third position, but only lasted ten laps, while Simon, who had been running fourth, developed a misfire and dropped right down. Manzon tore past Landi on the second lap, and drove a consistent race, while Menditeguy, with the 1500cc Ferrari, worked his way up from the back. At 20 laps Fangio led Gonzalez, who in turn was ahead of Manzon, driving his Simca very well, Landi – with either the car or the driver off-colour – and Menditeguy, who had elbowed his way up into that position. Much-fancied Teddy Schwelm, driving a 3.8-litre Alfa, had had a most irregular race, and was in and out of the pits, retiring on the 15th lap. On lap 24 Gonzalez retired, to everybody’s surpris, when a rear wheel started to loosen; so Simon sailed into second palce, only to run out of road at the same time. So Menditeguy concluded a wonderful drive by collecting a fine second place , while Landi was third, a lap behind. Crespo drove the Talbot intoa very quiet and consistent fourth, followed by Cantoni with the Maserati. Pagani’s blaring Milano never ran properly, while Fontes, in spite of continual trouble with plugs, drove doggedly to finish in sixth place, six laps behind.

RESULTS
Race Distance: 30 laps 87.72 miles

1. J.M. Fangio – Ferrari 2000 s, 1h 15m 23.9s, 69.82 mph
2. C. Menditeguy – Ferrari 1500 s, 1h 17m 39.1s
3. F. Landi – Ferrari 2000 s, 29 laps
4. A. Crespo – Talbot 4482cc, 29 laps
5. E. Cantoni – Maserati 1500 s, 29 laps
6. A. Fontes – Maserati 1500 s, 24 laps

Fastest lap: Fangio 2m 28.8s, 70.76 mph

In the following two weeks, two events were held at Piriapolis, on the 1.468-mile circuit near Montevideo. Both races were scheduled for 65 laps (95.42 miles), but the second event had to be cut down because of rain and poor visibility. All the South American “circus” was agin present, reinforced by Manzon and Simon (Simcas), Trintignant (Talbot) and Rosier (Ferrari 4500). Interest was also added by Landi with his brand new Ferrari 4500, bought for him by the Brazilian Government.
The first race was run on Sunday, March 23; 100,000 spectators saw Fangio tear into the lead from the start, never to be headed during the whole race. In spite of the 380hp of his Ferrari 4500, Landi was unable to do anything about it, Fangio drawing away two seconds or so per lap. Bira, driving his Maserati-Osca, was unlucky, and dropped out on the sixth lap, while Fangio simultaneously made what was to be fastest lap of the day – 1m 17.7s, an average of 67.78 mph. That remarkable driver Menditeguy was third all the way in the ex-Galvez 3800cc Alfa, until lap 52, when he was forced to stop for a tyre change, and Manzon (Simca 1500) passed him. Trintignant drove his Talbot very well indeed to take sixth place, but Marques, who came in seventh with Landi’s 2-litre Ferrari, appeared to have a bit more power than he could handle comfortably. Nello Pagani’s 2-litre Maserati was rather sick, but not as sick as Rosier’s big Ferrari, which could hardly go at all. Another car which refused to go properly was the much-fancied Froilan Gonzalez’ 2000cc supercharged Ferrari; he staggered along among the tail-enders until he gave up on lap 19.

RESULTS

Race Distance: 65 laps of 1.468-mile circuit (95.42 miles)

1. J.M. Fangio – Ferrari 2000 s, 1h 28m 15.2s
2. F. Landi – Ferrari 4500, 1h 29m 0.3s
3. R. Manzon – Simca 1500 s, 1h 29m 38.1s, 64 laps
4. C. Menditeguy – Alfa Romeo 3800 s, 63 laps
5. A. Simon – Simca 1500 s, 63 laps
6. M. Trintignant – Talbot 4500, 63 laps
7. F. Marques – Ferrari 2000 s, 62 laps
8. J. Daponte – Maserati 1500 s, 60 laps
9. N. Pagani – Maserati 2000, 59 laps
10. L.Rosier – Ferrari 4500, 57 laps
11. A. Fontes – Maserati 1500 s, 56 laps

Fastest Lap: Fangio 1m 17.7s 67 98 mph

The last race was run on Sunday, March 30, which was a very rainy day, so much more so that the start was held back more and more until finally visibility started dropping noticeably. In the end, the race was cut down to 20 laps, or only 30 miles. This time Gonzalez took the early lead, and was first on lap 1, but then Fangio passed and that was that.
Landi sat behind the two Argentinians until lap 14, when he had a brief pit-stop, which let Rosier, with the 4500 Ferrari now going well, and Manzon, who was putting up a wonderful show as usual, pass him. Otherwise, there was not much incident in the race. Alberto Crespo, champion of Argentina in the local mechanics division for racing cars with stock engines, showed his skill by taking eighth place with the battered 3800 Alfa. However, he needs a bit more experience, as it is quite a leap from his 2300 Alfa-engined special to the Grand Prix type of car.

RESULTS

Race Distance: shortened to 20 laps because of rain (29.37 miles)

1. J.M. Fangio – Ferrari 2000 s, 27m 35.7s, 63.78 mph
2. J.F. Gonzalez – Ferrari 2000 s, 27m 54.6s
3. L. Rosier – Ferrari 4500, 28m 38.5s
4. R. Manzon – Simca 1500 s, 28m 58.0s
5. F. Landi – Ferrari 4500, 29m 1.8s
6. O. Marimon – Ferrari 1500 s, 19 laps
7. F. Marques – Ferrari 2000 s, 19 laps
8. A. Crespo – Alfa Romeo 3800 s, 19 laps
9. M. Trintignant – Talbot 4500, 19 laps
10. A. Fontes – Maserati 1500 s, 19 laps
11. A. Simon – Simca 1500 s, 19 laps
12. D. Bazet – Maserati 1500 s, 18 laps
13. E. Cantoni – Maserati 1500 s, 18 laps
14. J.F. Lopes – Maserati 1500 s, 18 laps



The two Beunos Aires GP races were each preceded by a sports car race, in which a variety of cars competed, from 2.3-litre Alfa Romeo and 38-250 Mercedes-Benz to ultra-modern creations by Simca and Ferrari. Notable performances were those of Schwelm’s old Monza Alfa Romeo, winner of the first race, and the fleet Simca driven by Jose Caamano, frequently handled by Fangio in past years.

RESULTS

First Buenos Aires Sports Car Race: 15 laps

1. A.J. Schwelm – Alfa Romeo 2300 s, 43 47.3s, 59.92 mph
2. Jorge Caamano – Simca 1430, 44m 8s
3. Carlos Stabile - Healey 2443, 44m 44.4s
4. Roberto Mieres – Mercedes-Benz 39-250, 45m 0.5s
5. Thomas Mayol – Alfa Romeo 2300 s, 45m 47.4s

Second Beunos Aires Sports Car Race: 15 laps

1. R. Bonomi – Ferrari 2562, 41m 58.5s, 62.71 mph
2. A. Schwelm – Alfa Romeo 2300 s, 42m 11.5s
3. J. Caamano – Simca 1430, 43m 51.5s
4. S. Stabile – Healey 2443, 44m 27.4s
5. J. Collazo – Healey 2443, 44m 35.9s
6. J. Millet – Jaguar 3442, 14 laps
7. H. Prado – Mercedes-Benz 7000, 14 laps
8. J. Fernandez Dellepiane – Jaguar 3442, 14 laps
9. “Emart” – Cisitalia 1089, 13 laps