144 replies to this topic

[rallen]

Reading the rather interesting thread on over-rated drivers and being shocked at seeing Damon's name on there - in my eyes and not just because I was a fan in my younger days, he is one of the most under-rated drivers. So I thought it would be interesting to start a parallel thread for people to debate who the under-rated drivers are. Should Damon Hill be on it? Alan Jones is almost like the missing champion in history and people only ever talk about James Hunt for his off track antics - was he under-rated?

thoughts, opinions and bun fighting welcome.

[Giraffe]

Reading the rather interesting thread on over-rated drivers and being shocked at seeing Damon's name on there - in my eyes and not just because I was a fan in my younger days, he is one of the most under-rated drivers. So I thought it would be interesting to start a parallel thread for people to debate who the under-rated drivers are. Should Damon Hill be on it? Alan Jones is almost like the missing champion in history and people only ever talk about James Hunt for his off track antics - was he under-rated?

thoughts, opinions and bun fighting welcome.

If this hasn't been done before on TNF, I'll eat my "cotten pickin'" titfer!

[rallen]

If this hasn't been done before on TNF, I'll eat my "cotten pickin'" titfer!

I did a search and only one very old thread came up! but it was about who was the MOST under-rated! I didn't want the thread/debate to be that narrow! surely no one can be ticked off that there was a similer-ish thread 8 years ago? it's not like it's another Senna fanboy thread!

We can always get it merged if someone takes umbridge - but anyway don't wriggle out of giving an answer young man, tell me yours!

[mrut29]

I would put a vote in for Jacques Lafitte. I don't remember exactly but I know he finished 2nd in the WDC at least once and it seems to me he brought the Ligier team from somewhat obscurity to one of the top teams on the grid.

[RStock]

Two I can think of would be Rene' Arnoux and Tony Brooks .

[kayemod]

Going by what's just been posted on the 'over-rated drivers' thread, I feel I should put in a word here for Damon Hill and Keke Rosberg, but you'd have to be tragically lacking in knowledge of fairly recent motor racing history to consider either of those two very worthy champions (with 27 WDC wins between them) to be 'over-rated'.

[rallen]

Going by what's just been posted on the 'over-rated drivers' thread, I feel I should put in a word here for Damon Hill and Keke Rosberg, but you'd have to be tragically lacking in knowledge of fairly recent motor racing history to consider either of those two very worthy champions (with 27 WDC wins between them) to be 'over-rated'.

Yes I was shocked by that on the thread - though Keke was a bit before my time so I only defended Hill. Have you any others?

[rallen]

Two I can think of would be Rene' Arnoux and Tony Brooks .

Ahh yes Tony Brooks! was he under-rated though? my impression is that he was rated very very highly. As for Rene, should he have achieved more? how did he performe against his Ferrari team mates?

[RStock]

Ahh yes Tony Brooks! was he under-rated though? my impression is that he was rated very very highly.

I would only consider Brooks under-rated simply because his name isn't one that pops up right away in conversations about great drivers . He wasn't around very long and was only a Harry Schell shenanigan away from being champion . He just sort of faded away into a bit of obscurity to the average fan today . I believe if he had stuck it out for a long time , he could/would have been mentioned with the all-time greats . I know Enzo Ferrari was sad to see him leave , and Stirling rated him as one of the best . That says a lot to me about his ability .

As for Rene, should he have achieved more? how did he performe against his Ferrari team mates?

An under-performing career , but very fast . Many like to point to the fight Rene' and Gilles had at Dijon as one of the greatest moments in F1 history , but Gilles seems to get all the credit . It takes two to Tango , and Rene' was giving as good as he got in that instance . I wouldn't rate him as one of the all-time greats , but certainly a good driver who is often over-looked .

[kayemod]

Ahh yes Tony Brooks! was he under-rated though? my impression is that he was rated very very highly.

By his peers most certainly, but I think that Tony Brooks suffered by being fairly quiet and undemonstrative, his performances on the track were of the very highest standard, but he never attracted media attention in the way that lesser talents like Mike Hawthorn did. I'm not in any way questioning Mike's qualities here of course, but I always felt that his media profile was just a bit disproportionate to his achievements, after all 3 WDC wins isn't a lot considering that it's the same as say, Johnny Herbert or Thierry Boutsen. In a similar way, I've sometimes felt that Mika Häkkinen doesn't get quite get the recognition he deserves. Like Tony Brooks never any headlines or on-track controversy, but two WDCs, 20 wins and very much the on-track equal of Michael Schumacher in spite of countless Mercedes engine failures.

[AndreasF1]

Tom Pryce
Theo Fabi
Hans Stuck

[ensign14]

If Stuck is underrated, surely John Watson HAS to be included, after all Stuck was scarcely anywhere near Wattie. And who was the better McLaren driver in 1983? Clue: Niki Lauda scored fewer wins and half as many points as Watson. Yet Watson never makes Top 50 or whatever lists. Had Lauda gone to play airplanes in 1984, perhaps Watson would have used the softly-softly approach to pip Prost to that year's title...

[Formula Once]

Riccardo Patrese

[Gabrci]

Going by what's just been posted on the 'over-rated drivers' thread, I feel I should put in a word here for Damon Hill and Keke Rosberg, but you'd have to be tragically lacking in knowledge of fairly recent motor racing history to consider either of those two very worthy champions (with 27 WDC wins between them) to be 'over-rated'.

Talking only about Hill, one just can't help noticing how many bad driving errors he made and how much he lacked raw speed compared to Schumacher.

[kayemod]

Talking only about Hill, one just can't help noticing how many bad driving errors he made and how much he lacked raw speed compared to Schumacher.

If you'd read Williams by Maurice Hamilton, you'd know that many of what the media reported at the time as 'driving errors' were actually problems with cars.

'Raw speed' is a silly term much loved in Racing Comments and by certain Autosport writers. It isn't used much on TNF.

[Michael Ferner]

Tom Pryce
Theo Fabi
Hans Stuck

Probably Stuck senior, no? Otherwise, it's Hans-Joachim Stuck, and he's hardly underrated. And Gabrci's post illustrates perfectly what an "underrated driver" is: Hill may not have had the "class" of Schumacher, but talking of "bad mistakes" and "raw speed", how about Monaco and Brazil in '96, for starters? Conveniently forgotten by Schumacher fans...

[kayemod]

... how about Monaco and Brazil in '96, for starters? Conveniently forgotten by Schumacher fans...

And Suzuka '96 of course, Schumacher fanboys would love to be able to forget that one.

[Gabrci]

If you'd read Williams by Maurice Hamilton, you'd know that many of what the media reported at the time as 'driving errors' were actually problems with cars.

'Raw speed' is a silly term much loved in Racing Comments and by certain Autosport writers. It isn't used much on TNF.

Yeah, I'm sure team bosses don't think about insignificant things like raw speed when they choose a driver.

[rallen]

If Stuck is underrated, surely John Watson HAS to be included, after all Stuck was scarcely anywhere near Wattie. And who was the better McLaren driver in 1983? Clue: Niki Lauda scored fewer wins and half as many points as Watson. Yet Watson never makes Top 50 or whatever lists. Had Lauda gone to play airplanes in 1984, perhaps Watson would have used the softly-softly approach to pip Prost to that year's title...

Thats a very interesting comment Ensign - brilliantly put! yes Watson should be in here. Just how good was he?

[rallen]

Riccardo Patrese

I always liked Riccardo, in what why do you think he was under-rated though?

[AndreasF1]

Probably Stuck senior, no? Otherwise, it's Hans-Joachim Stuck, and he's hardly underrated. And Gabrci's post illustrates perfectly what an "underrated driver" is: Hill may not have had the "class" of Schumacher, but talking of "bad mistakes" and "raw speed", how about Monaco and Brazil in '96, for starters? Conveniently forgotten by Schumacher fans...

Let's keep things in perspective with respect to Hill please. I don't rate him because in my book he wasn't any good. Maybe his biggest problem is that he will always be compared with MS and I admit that this is a challange only Hakkinen and Alonso could overcome.
Schumacher is human and human make mistakes. I forgive him Monaco because all the greats have had their fair share of race ending errors at Monaco. Lauda 84, Senna 88, Piquet 83, Mansell 84, Alonso 2004 (?).. the list goes on.

[kayemod]

Let's keep things in perspective with respect to Hill please. I don't rate him because in my book he wasn't any good.

Oh dear, where do we start?

[longhorn]

Oh dear, where do we start?

After some great performances 1994 -1996, try his final season in the Jordan.

[frp]

I forgive him Monaco because all the greats have had their fair share of race ending errors at Monaco.

Oh dear, where do we start?

[Jeroen Brink]

Jan Lammers

[Phil Rainford]

Can I throw Derek Warwick's hat into the ring please ?

An equal of Piquet in F3, a World Champion in Sportscars and if his potential seats at Williams and Lotus had materialised plus Renault keeping their eye on the ball..... I am sure he would have made the top step of the podium on a number of occasions.

PAR

[Giraffe]

Yeah, I'm sure team bosses don't think about insignificant things like raw speed when they choose a driver.

Correct; they're a lot more sophisticated than that these days. There are a whole raft of requirements that a team manager would look for. I doubt a driver like Gilles V. would get a seat today as he presented himself in period.
As underrated drivers, I nominate Tony Trimmer, Geoff Lees and Jim Crawford.

[Phil Rainford]

As underrated drivers, I nominate Tony Trimmer, Geoff Lees and Jim Crawford.

Like your thinking...........bet they were not under-rated by anyone who watched British Club Racing in the 1970s


PAR

[Giraffe]

Like your thinking...........bet they were not under-rated by anyone who watched British Club Racing in the 1970s


PAR

They were by some, as they didn't get the seats in F1 that their talent deserved.

[kayemod]

After some great performances 1994 -1996, try his final season in the Jordan.

Well yes, can't disagree there, but weren't we all discussing Damon's Williams period, where apparently "He wasn't any good" ?

[Gabrci]

Correct; they're a lot more sophisticated than that these days. There are a whole raft of requirements that a team manager would look for. I doubt a driver like Gilles V. would get a seat today as he presented himself in period.
As underrated drivers, I nominate Tony Trimmer, Geoff Lees and Jim Crawford.

Of course, and I really like that the job gets more and more complex. But let's not try to mystify very simple things. If a driver doesn't have sheer, raw speed then there is not much to talk about.

[Michael Ferner]

I presume that's why we talk about Damon Hill that much in a thread about underrated drivers, innit?

[David McKinney]

I doubt a driver like Gilles V. would get a seat today as he presented himself in period.

I know one top team turned him down in 1977 for that very reason

[Rob]

I don't know what the opinion was of Paul Frere at the time, but he achieved more than he gets credit for.

[William Hunt]

When they talk about underrated drivers I always have to think of Mike Thackwell. He didn't get a fair chance in F1; was thrown in too young for his debut and had so much talent but after a couple of failed tries with mediocre teams he never got a shot at a full season.

Edited by William Hunt, 12 February 2010 - 00:33.

[frp]

Can I throw Derek Warwick's hat into the ring please ?

An equal of Piquet in F3, a World Champion in Sportscars and if his potential seats at Williams and Lotus had materialised plus Renault keeping their eye on the ball..... I am sure he would have made the top step of the podium on a number of occasions.

PAR

I had the impression at the time, rightly or wrongly, that Delboy was the driver of choice both for Lotus in '84 and Williams in '85. He felt that Renault was a better option, as most would have, given their form from '81 to '83. Consequently, he missed out on the Williams-Honda success that, quite frankly, looked unlikely at the end of '84. How different the next few years could have been, with Warwick potentially 1986 World Champion, and Mansell perhaps missing out on a top drive.

I always felt that circumstances conspired against Brundle's potential being fully recognised. It seems to matter less now, given the triumph that his new career has become, but he could have been luckier with the drivers he had to stand comparison with. In F3, he wasn't quite the best and then, when he had a competitive F1 drive, he was outqualified by a rookie teammate. But in retrospect, being slightly slower over a single lap than either Senna or Schumacher doesn't look so shabby. He also matched Bellof during their time at Tyrrell; if he hadn't shunted in final qualifying at Monaco 1984 and his had been the only Tyrrell in the race, then that could have been another piece of Grand Prix history rewritten. How easily whole careers could seemingly be determined by a single incident or decision.

[maximilian]

Can I throw Derek Warwick's hat into the ring please ?

An equal of Piquet in F3, a World Champion in Sportscars and if his potential seats at Williams and Lotus had materialised plus Renault keeping their eye on the ball..... I am sure he would have made the top step of the podium on a number of occasions.

PAR

With you 100% there. Warwick's heroic drive in the Toleman-Hart all the way into 2nd place at Brands Hatch 1982 before he had to park it essentially started my fascination with F1. I was soooooo happy when they finally scored their first points next year, and so full of anticipation when he joined Renault (with Tambay still probably my all-time favorite driver lineups in a team).

[maximilian]

Karl Wendlinger was arguably faster than Schumacher, and had it not been for his accident, who knows how far he would have gone... I am sure he would have had a better career than his peer HH Frentzen, and possibly much more.

[milestone 11]

One that never had the chance to be rated, under or otherwise, Stephen South.

One under rated, Stefano Modena.

[ensign14]

Keke Rosberg dismissed Modena following his first Grand Prix when he gave up because he was a bit tired. "He'll never make it. When you're making your debut, you drag the thing home." Modena was never as good as Brundle at Brabham, although that may say more for Brundle.

Another underrated: Jody Scheckter, like Emmo tainted by his final season. As fast as the McLaren drivers when he made his debut, nearly a full-time rookie world champion with Tyrrell, got more out of the six wheeler than Depailler, won first time out for a Wolf team that had been at the back throughout 1976 and beat Villeneuve to the title (forget the whole Gilles staying behind at Monza, Jody had done the hard work in the first half of the season and there were still a couple of races remaining).

[rallen]

Karl Wendlinger was arguably faster than Schumacher, and had it not been for his accident, who knows how far he would have gone... I am sure he would have had a better career than his peer HH Frentzen, and possibly much more.

Yes I remember all the hype at the time and the commentators in 1993 and early 1994 saying he was better than Schumacher in their days together. A fascinating 'What if'

[JeffrieNL]

Jos ''The Boss'' Verstappen with a lot of bad luck with Simtek and the Honda Project in 1999

Edited by JeffrieNL, 13 February 2010 - 11:45.

[kayemod]

Jos ''The Boss'' Verstappen with a lot of bad luck with Simtek and the Honda Project in 1999

Really? He didn't look that great when he lucked himself into a Benetton drive.

[angst]

Some interesting ones here. I agree with many, including 'Wattie' - terribly unlucky in '77 to be lumbered with that Alfa F12, and at the end of '83 when Prost got himself sacked at Renault.....

Scheckter (like Rosberg and Damon Hill) are World Champions who aren't given the credit they deserve. Damon Hill especially... there's just so much, well...., crap written about him particularly in reference to Schumacher. All part of the Schumacher mythology, I'm afraid.

I'll put forward, as an underrated F1 driver... Marc Surer. I don't think he ever got the chance he deserved. That drive in Brazil in '81. he reminded me, in many ways, of Lauda - but without the political nouse, perhaps. A tough racer, an intelligent racer. In fact, I rather think that, in some ways, Niki Lauda is underrated.

And, as with the Schumacher mythology undermining Damon Hill, I believe the Senna mythology undermined Prost.

[angst]

And, one that just came to mind... Peter Revson.

[MegaManson]

Pierluigi Martini

Some great exploits at Minardi but never really got the F1 breaks and was brilliant in sportscars

[sonar]

I've always thought Ivan Capelli was under-rated.

Most under-rated drivers seem to have had the misfortune to be in the wrong car at the wrong time.

Jos Verstappen, of course, could never be under-rated.

[RA Historian]

Really? He didn't look that great when he lucked himself into a Benetton drive.

I have always felt that being put into the Benetton seat when Lehto was injured was the worst thing that could have happened to Verstappen's career. Simply put, I think that he was not quite ready for F-1 at that time. Another year of seasoning before moving into the "big time" could have done wonders for his long term advancement. As it was, suddenly driving for a winning team alongside that year's World Champion must have been a daunting proposition. I have always felt that it had a negative effect on his career.

Jos was never in a car as good as that Benetton from that time forward. Stewart, Tyrrell, Arrows, Minardi --not on the level of the B-195. I think this is truly a case of too much too soon.

I find him neither overrated nor underrated. True, he never achieved a decent level of accomplishment in F-1, save that first year when he had a couple thirds IIRC, but he is certainly not as bad as a couple posters here have said.
Tom

[angst]

I have always felt that being put into the Benetton seat when Lehto was injured was the worst thing that could have happened to Verstappen's career. Simply put, I think that he was not quite ready for F-1 at that time. Another year of seasoning before moving into the "big time" could have done wonders for his long term advancement. As it was, suddenly driving for a winning team alongside that year's World Champion must have been a daunting proposition. I have always felt that it had a negative effect on his career.

Jos was never in a car as good as that Benetton from that time forward. Stewart, Tyrrell, Arrows, Minardi --not on the level of the B-195. I think this is truly a case of too much too soon.

I find him neither overrated nor underrated. True, he never achieved a decent level of accomplishment in F-1, save that first year when he had a couple thirds IIRC, but he is certainly not as bad as a couple posters here have said.
Tom

An interesting point, and a similar one to my view on de Cesaris. I think his first year in F1 came too early and that he never really got a chance again - his reputation ruined (though he had a brief resurgence with the ever-improving Jordan in '91). And... I think that Massa was lucky in that, even though he also came to F1 too early he was given a second chance by Ferrari - and look where he is now.

[ensign14]

Let's bung another name in: Karl Kling.

Won the Carrera Panamericana in 1952. Led the 1953 Mille Miglia for a while. Also at the sharp end of Le Mans that year - a race that featured every Grand Prix winner from 1950 to 1958 barring the late Fagioli and the early Musso. Kept company with Fangio at Reims in 1954 (OK, JMF may have been sandbagging, but Herrmann was nowhere). In the unsuitable streamliner, finished 4th at the Ring. Won a Grand Prix at AVUS (JMF sandbagging again?).

All this done when he was older than Fangio.

Ten years younger or older, surely he would have been a genuine Grand Prix winner?