147 replies to this topic

[Nustang70]

I can't find any images of Lola's entry, and since they already presented to the IRL board, I'm not sure we will see any images of their concepts. So, of the concepts we have seen, which do you prefer?

Follow these links to view the concepts:


Dallara entries

Swift entries

Delta Wing entry


I think that a radical design is the IRL's best bet for stimulating new interest in the sport. I'd prefer either the Red Dallara, the Swift #33, or the Delta Wing.

Edited by Nustang70, 11 February 2010 - 01:46.

[Rob G]

I saw someone "elsewhere" say that the Lola renderings will be revealed on Friday. I'll wait until the weekend to vote. As of right now I'd pick the #23 Swift.

[Marbles]

I went with the Swift 23 as I'd like to see their "mushroom buster" doo-hickey at work on a fairly standard open wheeler. If it works, it could be useful in another open wheeled series.

[Nustang70]

I saw someone "elsewhere" say that the Lola renderings will be revealed on Friday. I'll wait until the weekend to vote. As of right now I'd pick the #23 Swift.

darn. if it does turn up, i'll redo the poll...

[Talryyn]

darn. if it does turn up, i'll redo the poll...

I want the Swift #23 in F1 tomorrow actually, so I will take in IRL as well I guess. If the cars looked that good I might watch it, but the Land Speed Record looking car, ummm...really? How will that handle road courses? Now if they can modernize the glorious cars from the 50's/60's then I would be all over that. Modern safety, no wings, and some sexy cars.

[V8 Fireworks]

Swift 32 is the winner for mine. Closes in the wheels a bit, without looking too outlandish.

[Risil]

Delta Wing. It's the smartest idea out there.

[Docc]

I have to say..

It's weird..
I don't like the looks of it
I don't know if it will work..

I think perhaps..

This is just the car to make Indy cars interesting..

Seeing a few of these mixed in a group of Dallaras and Swifts and Lola's...would be like seeing the 2F racing or the Turbine STP cars..or Clark in the 1st rear engined car among the roadsters.

Controversy..interest..imagination..INDY ???

Sure..do it..

[teejay]

Why does it have to be a one make series?

Open your eyes Indycar - how good was CART in the mid 90's due to there being penske's, reynards, lola's, swifts, eagles mixing it up.

Radical isnt the way to go - they have to rebuild the sport, then worry about being outlandish.

[Marbles]

Why does it have to be a one make series?

Open your eyes Indycar - how good was CART in the mid 90's due to there being penske's, reynards, lola's, swifts, eagles mixing it up.

Radical isnt the way to go - they have to rebuild the sport, then worry about being outlandish.

Well said.

[cheapracer]

Hello? Wheres the 'none of the above' option? Please add Dave Marek Concept to the poll.

The Deltawing is a joke, I don't care what names designed/have been put to it, no one wants to see those POS racing.

Indycar will not be successful as long as they are running Honda engines, they need to immediately switch over to NASCAR engines and bring back the Chev Vs Ford Vs Chrysler All American image - no need to look further than Australia for that proof.

Heres your winner, The Dave Marek concept for the reasons given at the website
http://www.autoracin...cle.asp?id=1248

It is futuristic looking (very much so)
It offers increased driver protection (note the sidepod design)
It reduces the chances of wheel-to-wheel interlocking (note sidepod design)
It generates most of its downforce from the undertray, which is less affected by turbulence from the car in front (Note the huge diffuser exit tunnels and recall the article I wrote with Dr. Mark Handford on this very topic many years ago.)
The wings are small so they generate less turbulence for the cars following, which increases the chance for passing.
The sidepods offer a huge amount of real estate for sponsor logos

Formula 1 take note of the above!! (Yes Bernie, I know you seek out my posts!)

Edited by cheapracer, 11 February 2010 - 03:25.

[teejay]

Arnt we in the middle of F1 racing being ruined because so much downforce comes from the diffuser and resulting dirty air?

[Marbles]

So if you're getting the bulk of your downforce from the undertray do you have two chasis designs, one for ovals and one for road courses? Maybe a third for short ovals?

[Talryyn]

Why does it have to be a one make series?

Open your eyes Indycar - how good was CART in the mid 90's due to there being penske's, reynards, lola's, swifts, eagles mixing it up.

Radical isnt the way to go - they have to rebuild the sport, then worry about being outlandish.

Agree - some of the best racing, you had CART, IMSA, F1 (still on ESPN though), SCCA racing was everywhere on TV, the Audi's were dominating, etc. Well I am mixing in some of the 80's here, but I see your point and raise it!

[Talryyn]

So if you're getting the bulk of your downforce from the undertray do you have two chasis designs, one for ovals and one for road courses? Maybe a third for short ovals?

How about active under trays! Let's us see how that cuts costs... Like DTM a few years back.

Well if your downforce is pretty much fixed by the diffuser, and you can only balance the car a bit with the wings - you put more effort into suspension setup. As long as the diffusers do not cause the draft issue it would make for some great racing actually. Comes down to best drivers and best race engineers.

[Marbles]

That seems reasonable, Talryyn.

[pingu666]

the delta is my favourite, because its such a shift from the standard, and it has clever idea's....

I think the IRL cars have got to be interesting for anyone to care about them. its also the first serious look Ive seen from any major series about being for efficientness...

whats the compelling reason for open wheel, to have open wheels? only two i can think of is history, and its more tense/dramatic when they go side by side

[pingu666]

So if you're getting the bulk of your downforce from the undertray do you have two chasis designs, one for ovals and one for road courses? Maybe a third for short ovals?

probably just different undertrays would be fine, much like CART had 2-3 areo packages back in the day

[teejay]

CART ran the same under tray, different wing setups.

[whitewaterMkII]

whats the compelling reason for open wheel, to have open wheels? only two i can think of is history, and its more tense/dramatic when they go side by side

Indy has always been an open wheel race, frankly I'll take history at that track over an aerodynamacists wet dream of a closed wheel, narrow track missle.
No doubt that the irl needs a MAJOR revamp, as it is, it's got a fingertip grip on the edge of oblivion as of today.
I like this thread, it's a good start.
I'll be interested in how it plays out, but my gut says the Delta is just...wrong.
I think I'll wait and see all the concepts before I chose one.
I do like the engine formula that is shaping up to be common amongst all the concepts, a 4L turbo at this point.

[teejay]

Cosworth XF turbo V8 = made tons of power, sounded great, no idea why they are piddling around with 4 cylinder turbo crap.

I am a japanese performance car fan, love them in street cars, but in hi-po race cars of this nature? Pass

[pingu666]

well its either that, or you run heavy restrictors, which drop the power way down, the delta project seems to think they need way less power than current cars for better/similer performance, and inline 4 turbo is what tempts manufactor's most at the moment. I think they would also want to distance themselves from nascar...

[Risil]

It's all about the power-weight-grip tradeoff. It's like Bowlby says: inline-fours are quite popular down Yamaha way in MotoGP, and despite the low horsepower compared to, say, the Cosworth XB, there's nothing quite as spectacular. When was the last time a figure in American motor sports had the imagination to look to a European bike racing series for inspiration?

[whitewaterMkII]

When was the last time a figure in American motor sports had the imagination to look to a European bike racing series for inspiration?

or when was the last time European bike racing was inspired by American motorsports?
Offenhauser was doing in line blown 4 cylinders in the fifties.
It's not an entirely 'new' concept.
The blown V-8's were waaaay restricted towards the end of their life cycle, nonetheless it was my favorite era. The Ilmor/Mercedes Indy 209 was big time impressive, even though it was a _loophole_ engine.

[Slyder]

Honestly, some of these designs are so outrageous that is as if these guys are trying to reinvent the wheel...

[Marbles]

well its either that, or you run heavy restrictors, which drop the power way down, the delta project seems to think they need way less power than current cars for better/similer performance, and inline 4 turbo is what tempts manufactor's most at the moment. I think they would also want to distance themselves from nascar...

I don't know, that sounds like the Star Mazda series to me. It's a great series with some of the best open wheel racing around, but I'm having problems transposing their too much aero/too little power formula to Indy.

[Docc]

At first I thought this is a joke...

But..I know if I saw that these were running..I'd watch.
IF..they did as we are told..close racing..improved acceleration..better passing..AND brought several makes as engines..

The look would bring people in..and the racing might keep them.

I think maybe start them as a feeder series..Indy Lights..a little smaller/less power. Run them on Saturdays before Indy cars run on Sunday, and you'll find out quick what brings the crowds..

[cheapracer]

Arnt we in the middle of F1 racing being ruined because so much downforce comes from the diffuser and resulting dirty air?

As long as the diffusers do not cause the draft issue it would make for some great racing actually.

Yes but the car I pictured above doesn't have diffusers as per say F1, it has tunnels - HUGE difference.

Note in aero terms the ground effect tunnels are diffusers but in F1 terms we tend to think of diffusers as the rear part that you see with all those strakes - it is that strake lined diffuser type that cause all the problems. If you watch some tunneled early 1980 F1 races you will see they had mega downforce but slipstreaming, even in long fast corners, was no problem unlike today.

Edited by cheapracer, 11 February 2010 - 05:32.

[pingu666]

slyder they sort of are, any design has to be a substancial improvement over the current car, and I guess not look like the old cart cars, they also need to inspire people to care about indycars again

[cheapracer]

I think they would also want to distance themselves from nascar...

yeah well.... NASCAR and V8 Supercars in Australia, the 2 most successful race series on the planet only behind F1 and the reason is very simple and plain to see.

Australian touring car racing went severely downhill in popularity when they went to first Group A and then to 2 litre Tourers - cars from all over the world, then went HUGE as soon as they went back to Chev Vs Ford dinosaur V8's.

People are patriotic and want to see cars they can relate with to their respective countries even though they may actually drive a Toyota or Honda.

[Risil]

People are patriotic and want to see cars they can relate with to their respective countries even though they may actually drive a Toyota or Honda.

So what's the answer? Formula 5000? That didn't last very long in America. Certainly CART was extremely popular in the '90s running various exotic English- and Japanese-constructed turbos. Even if it didn't pull in the crowds that NASCAR did -- Indianapolis aside -- the interest from television, manufacturers and sponsors was huge.

Indy can't beat NASCAR at the fake-stock, patriot game, but history has shown that the American public will accept something different alongside.

Edited by Risil, 11 February 2010 - 05:38.

[Rob G]

Delta Wing. It's the smartest idea out there.

There are some smart ideas in the Delta Wing proposal, but the inability to judge how far you are from walls, the grass, and the car next to you without looking in your mirrors is ludicrously stupid. Cost savings will go out the window because drivers are going to be knocking rear corners off all the time. They're sacrificing driveability and raceability and common sense for aerodynamic wizardry.

[teejay]

So what's the answer? Formula 5000? That didn't last very long in America. Certainly CART was extremely popular in the '90s running various exotic English- and Japanese-constructed turbos. Even if it didn't pull in the crowds that NASCAR did -- Indianapolis aside -- the interest from television, manufacturers and sponsors was huge.

Indy can't beat NASCAR at the fake-stock, patriot game, but history has shown that the American public will accept something different alongside.

Well said

[Marbles]

There are some smart ideas in the Delta Wing proposal, but the inability to judge how far you are from walls, the grass, and the car next to you without looking in your mirrors is ludicrously stupid. Cost savings will go out the window because drivers are going to be knocking rear corners off all the time. They're sacrificing driveability and raceability and common sense for aerodynamic wizardry.

That's not a bad argument. The obvious riposte is that the drivers will quickly become used to the cars and develop a feel for the wide back end. And there's no denying that the Delta Wing group has made a strong argument for the long nose.

But that doesn't change the fact that you're right. The first season will be a fiasco and subsequent seasons will be parsed by both routine and rookie fiascos. Think about it: what happens when one of these things gets sideways at Indy? Or sideways at a hair pin on a street circuit?

Can this wheelbase make all of the hairpins on the current circuit?

Another idea that just occurred to me, are current gravel traps effective with this design?

[TecnoRacing]

Swift 32 all the way (the other swifts are alright too)

[anbeck]

Radical isnt the way to go - they have to rebuild the sport, then worry about being outlandish.

Looking at some of the designs, I think they're aiming at the 3-to-8 year-old boys, trying to get them before they get socialized by NASCAR

But I agree, get some series running first! Otherwise, there won't be any teams that will need an IndyCar chassis in 2012....

[Henri Greuter]

Why does it have to be a one make series?

Open your eyes Indycar - how good was CART in the mid 90's due to there being penske's, reynards, lola's, swifts, eagles mixing it up.

Radical isnt the way to go - they have to rebuild the sport, then worry about being outlandish.

I support that opinion.
Though I think that for the majority of American Race fans, (the patriotic and traditional ones in particular) there was way too less American input by then.

Henri

[PayasYouRace]

Swift no.23 for me. It's the one that looks like what I'd think of if someone said "Indycar". The Similar looking Dallara could also get my vote.

[mtknot]

i reckon they should go for something like the swift 32, or 23,

23 has the benefit of looking like the cheapest (and most probable) design, with the focus on underbody aero, while 32 would probably be a costly solution (looks like a lemans prototype...), but that car would have significantly better driver safety and structural strength IMO.

Its unfortunate that F1 is so restricted these days... wish cars like these were allowed (reminds me of one of the lotuses that were outlawed LOL). Really dislike the current low nose car...

It'd be much better if there were more manufacturers though...

Imho that delta wing concept, while it sounds good, on the fronts of safety and performance i'd really question it. Designing a car like that will mean that the car will be oversteer prone obviously due to the mechanical advantage that the wider rear causes, though that might be the point of the design anyway; a twitchier car for more maneuvers? Maybe. The most concerning aspect of it is the lack of side on impact protection, usually on a normal "open wheel" car the wheels are in the way, along with the suspension but here....I dont want another Zanardi.

Wonder how it generates downforce? Itd be win if it used fans

Edited by mtknot, 11 February 2010 - 11:19.

[Jimisgod]

First Dallara.

[Bouncing Pink Ball]

The Deltawing is a crazy, retro-looking, bulky, phallic monster but it would attract more attention to the series than anything else that's happened in the past decade. I say put it on the track in some capacity.

To me, the Swift 32 and 33 look somewhat pointlessly Batmobile-ish too, but in a more cowardly, less adventurous way. If you want to go that direction, go the full distance, I say. The popular Swift 23 is the least radical, most familiar of the lot, and I guess that might be why folks like it? The first Dallara pictured looked like a toy version of a current F1 car, little shark fin and all, while the others veered off into timid Batmobile territory again.

If it were up to me, I'd allow for some teams to purchase Deltawings so that there are a few in the field for the next Indy 500. So long as they pass safety checks, are drivable and manage to qualify, having those insane cars there would get the race noticed and shots of those things circling the track would probably even make the conventional news, as well as popping up all over the internet. If the Deltawing teams fail, write it off as no big loss. If they succeed, or even win (! ), well then, there's something to build on as the future of IRL. Sorry, but it's so bad now that drastic measures are needed to save American OW.

[rmac923]

Mix of Swifts, Dallaras and (hopefully) Lola's.


Seriously, Indy desperately needs multiple constructors again.


The original Marek prototype is cool, but the most recent Deltawing just looks goofy. If it floated like F-Zero, it'd be awesome, but with wheels?

[Sausage]

They can't just make a few for some teams, that would cost a fortune. The attention it would attract is moot, after all a trainwreck attracts attention too. The first race people would be like "what is that? lol I watch this kekeke..." The 2nd race would be "not this ridiculous sh*t again! I wish Nascar was on they have real cars"

The problem with the decision is that the Indycar Series dies when they don't choose the Delta Wang
So go ahead put your faith in Chip and Roger, they must have a small male organ so they decided to build a bigger one to show off, just remember they have betrayed plenty of people before and they are about to again

[juicy sushi]

The designer of the Delta Wing claims that he narrowed the track at the front to make the car not look like a sports car. Which to me means the changes is more aesthetic than aerodynamic. I don't think some sort of fenders can be avoided, just because of the number of expensive crashes caused through wheel on wheel contact (not just interlocking, but front to back as well, which the Marak concept doesn't address). Team owners can't afford massive repair bills, so I think the fenders may be necessary. The narrow track I think doesn't really make sense, and appears to be a major turn off for most, so I think it would be wise to abandon it.

I think that the Delta Wing is overly retro, and while the design goals are correct, the design used to achieve them is not, I feel. It just looks a bit too old-fashioned. I think that those goals should be converted into hard rules, and then Swift, Lola and Dallara should be left to achieve them (particularly the cost goals).

I don't think the Swift designs were timid, just that they reflected design concepts which they have already built, and track-tested. Dallara really only offered concept sketches which clearly would never be what was produced, and the Delta Wing is one man's day dreaming.

I think too much was promised by certain figures in the media on the Delta Wing, and I think it reflects the age of the people involved in the sport. They grew up in the 1950s and 1960s, and as a result, the car looks like its from that era. Which works well for some, but clearly isn't going to resonate with those who don't relate to that era (and even some who do).

[Buttoneer]

They should save the Delta Wing for a new generation of hover-speeders with missile pickups, mines and loop-the-loop circuits.

[917k]

The DW looks like a fifties rocket show car, which is to say, dated and ludicrous.

[Hairpin]

I like the Swift's, maybe I'm pervert
The DW Batman looks childish.

[Brian O Flaherty]

Swift #33 for me. Obviously not a popular choice. I think the Delta looks, ehh 'interesting' but it's surely a total non-starter. It's like a land-speed record car i.e. very little downforce.

Having said all that, I think the orange Dallara is the more feasible one so I think that's the one they may go with - obviously without knowing what Lola have submitted.

[Bouncing Pink Ball]

I'm trying to look at the situation from the perspective of what can be done to get people to notice Indy again. I don't particularly love the idea of strange cars just for the sake of being different, but when I looked at the various designs, I couldn't get away from the feeling that there was an attempt being made to somehow meld traditional OW car concepts with something that feels a bit too much like trying to grab the attention of teenage boys. I'd love to have seen something really innovative and visually appealing, but I don't feel I did. At least the Deltawing is honestly something new, even if it's an old-fashioned, retro new. If a one-make series is all that's sustainable, yeah, I'd rather have the style of cars the public has come to expect. The problem is, the public isn't paying much attention anymore.

So what to do? I don't know, but me, I'd rather the series go out with a bang – even an Are they insane? WTF is THAT? *cue laughter* bang – rather than continue to slowly fade into irrelevance. Indycars aren't what they once were, probably won't be again any time soon (if ever). Maybe it's time for change. Hey, it might even work out if given a chance.

[PayasYouRace]

Given the large area under the delta portion of the Delta Wing design, you could create quite a considerable downforce using ground effects. In fact it would be a rather efficient way of doing it, which fits into the idea of the car. It's the mechanical aspects that I question.

Anyone else think that there's actually not much difference between the Delta Wing bodywork and that of the Brabham BT52 (but for the lack of wings and the wheels being enclosed)?