147 replies to this topic

[Talryyn]

I love the floor on the Lola, the rest is meh. Take the Swift 23 with the floor/diffuser on the Lola!

[raiseyourfistfor]

Yellow Dallara..... doesn't look like many agree with it though.

I just think that aesthetics are important for race cars and I definitely wouldn't ever watch some of the other monstrosity designs(looking at you DeltaWing, Swift 32/33)

If the racing is entertaining and the cars are pleasing to the eye the fans are sure to follow.

[Locai]

Kane,

I saw the Delta Wing report on Wind Tunnel, too.

I don't know if the design will work or not, but I like the whole concept that the Delta Wing represents.

It's a whole rethink of what an Indy Car can be. I remember reading before that the original concept was actually a 3 wheel vehicle, but the FIA said that a 3 wheeler had to be categorized as a motorcycle. It changes the complete paradigm of what a race car should be.

The problem with all of the other designs is that, at first glance, you can't tell which series the car is from. You can't tell whether it's an F1, IndyCar, or junior formula car. At least with the Delta Wing, you will KNOW that it's an IndyCar whenever you see it.

I really like that the Delta Wing concept is driving costs down by half. It's not just a 10% discount. I like that it's meant to be built in the US. I find it a bit disingenuous that the other manufacturers (especially Dallara!!!) have said that they will build their new cars in the US and at greatly reduced costs. They never would have said either one if it weren't for the teams forcing their hands.

I really like that, for once, an entire paddock was able to come together and agree on, well, anything! It just shows how bad of shape IndyCar is in right now that every team owner has joined in and is supporting the Delta Wing concept.

The big fear is that the teams will break away if IndyCar doesn't go along with them. However, I think that the teams have all of the power at this point...much more than when TG started up the IRL. TG is out of power/money. He's actually supporting the Delta Wing concept. There is no backlog of teams waiting to enter IndyCar if the current 18-22 cars leave. The series is done if they piss off any of the owners...especially Penske, Ganassi, and Andretti. Every indication is that the George family has no interest in kicking out the current car owners for any reason and starting over again.

The biggest hurdle to the owners plan seems to be Brian Barnhart. However, he doesn't own the series, he doesn't run the series, and he isn't part of the family. The new CEO was actually at the unveiling of the Delta Wing, so I hope that's a good sign that he's very interested in completely revamping the series. If he's smart (maybe a stretch for anybody willing to take over running IndyCar) he'll want to leave his mark on the sport. What better way than to completely revolutionize how motor sports are run and the vehicles are spec'd.

If the series takes the gutless approach of sticking with spec Dallaras and spec Honda engines then it's done. Nobody has interest in a top tier spec racing. Even the NASCAR monster has lost a lot of fans (attendance and TV ratings) since it's gone with the COT. Even the Delta Wing group has said that they don't want 33 identical cars running around Indy.

I'm looking forward to seeing the prototype on the track in August. It will make or break the whole concept.

[screamingV16]

Ignoring the fact I think it pig ugly, ungainly, old fashioned and doesn't look like a racing car , I still can't see how the Deltawing is meant to negotiate corners on street circuits or road courses other than very slowly. Surely the laws of physics will dictate it's narrow, close together front wheels have very little grip or turn in. Is IRL abandoning everything but ovals? I haven't read any techinical details yet just PR about the 'concept' which is all it appears at the moment, sure will intersting to see it on track in 7 months time.

[roadie]

I don't watch any Indycar, apart from some of the crazy crashes that happen, but the Swift and Lola cars look the best to me. Could the DW run well on road course?

[potmotr]

Lola is the best to my mind.

The others are awful.

[Marbles]

Nice post, Locai.

[Chezrome]

Nice post, Locai.

+1. So nice if posters offer some information and insight instead of just: this is my opinion and everyone else who thinks differently is a tosser.

[Marbles]

I don't watch any Indycar, apart from some of the crazy crashes that happen, but the Swift and Lola cars look the best to me. Could the DW run well on road course?

I've raised that question previously in this thread, and it would seem that nobody knows the answer. It's a critcal question because it will define the future of IndyCar as either NASCAR with open wheels or, once more, a true rival to F1. I would prefer the later option.

However much I appreciate the DW entery for its frugality and common sense approach to automobile racing, at the end of the day it is a pusillanimous, inward-looking last bastion of the Indy 500.

Let's be aggressive, gentlemen! It's no secret that CART was once a serious rival to F1. Nor is it a secret that Bernie's rush to the East has fallen far short of any rational mind's measure of success.

Rather than playing make believe with cars, let's do something substantial and consider a FOTA/IndyCar merger, preferably devoid of FIA sanction. And let's snap up the tracks that Bernie is all too willing to forego in his rush for Eastern dollars.

A new sanctioning body would have to be established, and it might be helpful to have that body comprised by inverse representation. That is to say the lowest third of the finishing order would have a dispreportionate say in the following year's regulations.

Edited by Marbles, 16 February 2010 - 11:37.

[potmotr]

I really don't see why IndyCar feels it has to reinvent the wheel.

Open wheel race cars have evolved into broadly the same shape for a reason.

[Mansell4PM]

+1. So nice if posters offer some information and insight instead of just: this is my opinion and everyone else who thinks differently is a tosser.

+2

[screamingV16]

Open wheel race cars have evolved into broadly the same shape for a reason.

This is the point I don't get and that is not being addressed, open wheel cars have a wide front track for a reason - to help turn-in and grip. The narrow track might be OK on Ovals, but what about on non-oval tracks? Is IRL abandoning non-ovals and will the Deltawing be considered an open wheeler anyway and what's it with all the need for wheel protection anyway? Have I missed loads of IRL cars flipping over each other in the last year?

From the press it appears the Deltawing has been designed to 'look cool' and be cheap, there is no mention of designing a fast, high performance race car. In fact all I've read refers to a concept not a design, are they going figure out how to make work afterwards, that sounds crazy and expensive . The fact (as mentioned in Locai post) they considered a 3 wheel concept and had to be told that would constitute a motorbike not a car gives an idea of how out to the lunch the whole thing is.

[potmotr]

This is the point I don't get and that is not being addressed, open wheel cars have a wide front track for a reason - to help turn-in and grip.

Yep, that's why I feel this whole thing smacks of a bit of a publicity stunt.

Raise the profile of IndyCar as they choose a new direction.

I mean, hell, there's surely a whole warehouse of the new CART chassis which was only used for one season.

Why not dust them off.

Problem solved, a new attractive car.

[Buttoneer]

One or two of these designs don't look like they are intended to be gotten in and out of. The #32 swift, for example. There's going to be a lot of clambering over bodywork to get to that cockpit.

I like the Lola concept (the different interchangeable parts) but still think the Delta is so different it's got to be the winner. "Into infinity...any beyond!"

[screamingV16]

I like the Lola concept (the different interchangeable parts) but still think the Delta is so different it's got to be the winner. "Into infinity...any beyond!"

What about the practical considerations, such as corners? I've been trying to find a definition of what consitututes an open wheel car. I haven't found anything official, but most definitions on places such as wikipedia refer to wheels being outside the main body, which the Deltawing does not appear to have, so is the Deltawing going to save or actually make obsolete top level open wheel racing in the US?

Edited by screamingV16, 16 February 2010 - 12:20.

[wewantourdarbyback]

I really don't see why IndyCar feels it has to reinvent the wheel.

They have to do something to get the spectators back.

[juicy sushi]

I really don't see why IndyCar feels it has to reinvent the wheel.

Open wheel race cars have evolved into broadly the same shape for a reason.

Yes, the rules banned any alternative approaches. Similar regulatory windows produced similar cars.

The cars look like they do because the rules say they have to look that way. There is no other reason. The Delta Wing is an aesthetic disaster, but the ideas behind it are correct. Radical is necessary because no one is watching. IndyCar really does need to reinvent the wheel to get some attention.

Do I agree with all of the decisions made about that car? No. The front track is too narrow, and it looks far too retro. But the concepts behind it are correct.

Only Swift managed to be anywhere near as original in their thinking. The new Lola sketches show a complete lack of thinking (they present the same concept, with the only difference being that one version has a bunch of pointless winglets stuck on to make it look "different"). Dallara shows similar lack of imagination.

The general public isn't going to tune in for a bunch of generic looking cars racing in much the same way as they have for the last decade. Hard-core fans may find that those comforting images resonate well with their cherished nostalgia, but hard-core fans aren't paying the bills, and unless casual fans and the general public can be attracted through getting their attention, nothing is going to save IndyCar.

[screamingV16]

The cars were pretty generic in the 90's, but they had proper powerful single seaters, good racing and the series was much more popular until Tony George destroyed it and single seater racing in the US...

This is a favourite of mine from 94, what a circuit!

http://www.youtube.c.....es villeneuve

[Rob]

I mean, hell, there's surely a whole warehouse of the new CART chassis which was only used for one season.

Why not dust them off.

I believe they were sold off to the Formula Green initiative.

[potmotr]

I believe they were sold off to the Formula Green initiative.

What that?

[Marbles]

What that?

I'm not entirely sure, but I'd wager that Don Panoz has a keen appreciation for it.

[juicy sushi]

The cars were pretty generic in the 90's, but they had proper powerful single seaters, good racing and the series was much more popular until Tony George destroyed it and single seater racing in the US...

As great as it was, the reality is that we can't go back. The past is not going to return, and a new way forward is necessary.

I don't know if the front track on the Delta Wing will work, and I think it should be wider myself, but I do feel that neither Lola, nor Dallara offer anything substantive with their proposals. Their stuff looks like it could be from any generic open wheel series of the last decade (A1 GP, Superleague, GP2, etc). That isn't anything different from the current series, and is quite plainly not resonating with fans. The cars need to look radical if they want attention, in particular from the general public. Hard-core fans aren't enough to sustain the series.

As far as being open-wheel, yes, a lot of cars haven't been flipping, but they have been crashing after touching wheels and the repair/replacement bills are exorbitant. Some sort of fenders are necessary for the economic sustainability of the series. The team owners can't afford the cost involved in open-wheel racing on ovals anymore. That's just something we'll have to live with.

[Nustang70]

I don't watch any Indycar, apart from some of the crazy crashes that happen, but the Swift and Lola cars look the best to me. Could the DW run well on road course?

Delta Wing believes it will run well on road courses. They released a simulation of the car on a road course (Atlanta, I think).

[Dispenser89]

^They released one at Mid Ohio and now have a simulation of the car at Long Beach.

After seeing the Lola designs and not really interesting me, voted for the Swift 23.

Edited by Dispenser89, 16 February 2010 - 23:37.

[cmgoodman]

Regarding the Swift designs - there are some idiotic features on the car - such Swift lights to indicate fuel capacity, throttle status, etc. These pictures look enticing when the car is standing still, but for anyone, who watched any auto racing, these lights will be useless, when the car is travelling at speed. The lights are not as accurate as the telemetry available as on camara telemetry. A simple iphone application, would allow a person to monitor a driver's telemetry far easier, and would allow a separate revenue stream.

I am doubtful about the other designs, Lola & Dallara, since they are much more complicated designs to fabricate. No one is talking about costs here. $600,000 per car including engiine is 50% cheaper than the current Dallara/Honda cars currently used in IndyCar. Remember that the current USA open wheel situation is tenuous financially. There is more money going into ALMS and GrandAm racing. The three alternative designs from Swift, Lola, & Dallara are limited variations from current regulations, but are relatively inefficient financially.

Let's let the prototype designs from DeltaWing have some test sessions at oval and road tracks, and check out stability and passing ability. I think people will be pleasantly surprised.

[Mauseri]

32 swift

[crowjr]

This makes me feel icky.

[Calorus]

Genuine question here: do none of you find this whole process a bit embarrassing? I mean - as an F1 fan this is the most incessantly obsessed I get, sort of checking for updates about every 35 minutes whilst the testing and all of the launches are going on, and new parts are being tested and the teams try to prove that they can build the best car for the upcoming season.

But every time I come to the site I'm greeted with pictures of frankly embarrassing caricatures of formula cars. I just watched the Deltawing Racing YouTube video and I feel soiled, as though someone had just tried to pass Wacky Races off as the 24 Heures du Mans.

Right now I wish Indycar and Champcars had died. This farce is nothing to do with Motorsport.

Usually I would say "Live and Let Live", but this travesty is farcical in the extreme - and, yet worse, it's going to drag the whole sport into the shitter with it.

[Bob Riebe]

it's going to drag the whole sport into the shitter with it.

.

Going to???

It has been there since the turn of the century; some one should call the Roto-rooter boys to flush it

[screamingV16]

This makes me feel icky.

I know what you mean . I know I keep banging on about it and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't see how the front end of these cars is going to grip the corners like in the r-factor mock up. Watch how they magically turn in to tight corners like an F1 car! Unless they have found a way to defy the laws of pyhsics that narrow, no grip front end would just go sliding straight into the walls of half those corners at the speed shown in the vid in the vid.

[teejay]

That long beach sim makes me weep... and not tears of joy

[Buttoneer]

What about the practical considerations, such as corners?

Corners...er...schmorners.

[Engineguy]

Anyone notice, that while DickWing is talking about a "budget" $600,000 car, six Courage-Oreca LMPC cars are entered for Sebring?

Carbon tub, carbon body, carbon brakes, Xtrac sequential 6-speed, 430 HP 'merican engine. Cost? $400,000.

Maybe someone should ask Courage-Oreca if they'd like to set up shop in Indy?

And on engines: Two weeks ago, after visiting Ganassi's shop right after they returned from the Rolex 24, I looked into the Daytona prototype engine rules. They have a half dozen or so different 500 HP engines homologated. They're all truely production-based, and seem to all be competitive and reasonable cost. BMW, Chevrolet, Ford, Infinity, Lexus, Honda, Porsche 6, and Porsche 8. All the interest of multiple manufacturers without any ongoing development cost for the manufacturers. In fact the Rolex 24 was won this year by the independently-homologated Porsche (Cayenne) V8 that Porsche refused to have anything to do with. Wouldn't this scheme, adopted intact perhaps, add a lot of interest to IRL by having brands competing against each other. Or do they naively believe they're gonna hook a manufacturer or two to dump money on the teams like the Cart glory days?

http://www.ultimatec...-Chevrolet.html

Edited by Engineguy, 17 February 2010 - 16:56.

[Brian O Flaherty]

That simulation just confirms that those cars look preposterous.

[John B]

To quote Sterling Moss when that abnormally long Ligier debuted in the 1980s, "those bloody things will have to be articulated just to get around the hairpin."

[juicy sushi]

Anyone notice, that while DickWing is talking about a "budget" $600,000 car, six Courage-Oreca LMPC cars are entered for Sebring?

Carbon tub, carbon body, carbon brakes, Xtrac sequential 6-speed, 430 HP 'merican engine. Cost? $400,000.

Maybe someone should ask Courage-Oreca if they'd like to set up shop in Indy?

And on engines: Two weeks ago, after visiting Ganassi's shop right after they returned from the Rolex 24, I looked into the Daytona prototype engine rules. They have a half dozen or so different 500 HP engines homologated. They're all truely production-based, and seem to all be competitive and reasonable cost. BMW, Chevrolet, Ford, Infinity, Lexus, Honda, Porsche 6, and Porsche 8. All the interest of multiple manufacturers without any ongoing development cost for the manufacturers. In fact the Rolex 24 was won this year by the independently-homologated Porsche (Cayenne) V8 that Porsche refused to have anything to do with. Wouldn't this scheme, adopted intact perhaps, add a lot of interest to IRL by having brands competing against each other. Or do they naively believe they're gonna hook a manufacturer or two to dump money on the teams like the Cart glory days?

The car is actually more expensive thank $400k. Advertised price and the actual cost of getting one on the track are not the same thing apparently. The Grand-Am engines aren't exactly as you describe though. The Porsche 6 was uncompetitive due to a chronic torque deficit, and Porsche yanked all support from the series as a result. The BMW engine is from the Dinan tuning company, and has nothing to do with BMW, the Infiniti has never been used in more than 2 cars that I can recall, and was never competitive. Toyota just pulled all support from the series and their main competitive team is now a BMW team (Ganassi). It's not as diverse as you make it out to be.

You can mock DeltaWing, but their ideas are sound and actually based on the experience of the paddock. The aesthetics are a problem, but the concepts underlying the car are not. Also, Grand-Am motors are not really ideal, as over-sized V8s in the back of the car tend to be too much mass, leading to worse crashes. The entire point is to use smaller motors because they're more efficient, and with less mass, mean that things are safer when you hit the wall.

[screamingV16]

Anyone know of any progress with the future Indycar choice and when are they going to decide on a project? Didn't the Deltawrong guys say they'd be testing a development on track by August? Their website doesn't mention anything much in the way of deadlines etc.

Cheers

[Risil]

And on engines: Two weeks ago, after visiting Ganassi's shop right after they returned from the Rolex 24, I looked into the Daytona prototype engine rules. They have a half dozen or so different 500 HP engines homologated. They're all truely production-based, and seem to all be competitive and reasonable cost. BMW, Chevrolet, Ford, Infinity, Lexus, Honda, Porsche 6, and Porsche 8. All the interest of multiple manufacturers without any ongoing development cost for the manufacturers. In fact the Rolex 24 was won this year by the independently-homologated Porsche (Cayenne) V8 that Porsche refused to have anything to do with. Wouldn't this scheme, adopted intact perhaps, add a lot of interest to IRL by having brands competing against each other. Or do they naively believe they're gonna hook a manufacturer or two to dump money on the teams like the Cart glory days?

As someone on the Nostalgia forum said, it's miraculous how 6 or 7 different engine types, with varying configurations, philosophies and what-have-you, are all dynoed to exactly 500hp. It's the NASCAR school of 'performance equalisation', whose real effect (and goal) is to make sure that no one can actually do a better job than the big hitters. Don't forget that it's a Ganassi engineer who's leading the Delta Wing project. If he thought Grand-Am was the way forward, he'd have said so already.

And screamingV16: Robin Miller says that Delta Wing is further along than the others in getting a track-ready prototype, but things are a bit on hold since IRL are dragging their arses over the new rules. If things aren't sorted out soonish we're looking at a real possibility of the teams doing their own thing regardless of the Speedway. Although with the current total lack of leadership from Indy, I suspect that any 'war' will look a lot more like the way FOTA essentially decide many technical rules amongst themselves away from the FIA, rather than another Split.

[TURU]

This makes me feel icky.

Ah, America

However, I would happily watch this series if they really managed to make this ..... cars (??) working. Unfortunatelly, I just can't see it working. And this "simulation" ...
Most probably they will end up similarily to USF1 - the Great American Formula 1 Team

[King Six]

The one that looks most like an F1 car pre-2008 seems to be winning the poll then, no surprise there. I hope they won't, but I know they will go for the most dullest least visually striking/changed car out of all the entries. The car that is as close as possible to the norm and current indycars. All this is just publicity stunts the way I see it

[mtknot]

Swift 32/23 are the best designs in terms of their sophistication, and safety measures. They're pretty much prototype racers though.

I'd very much prefer mixed chassis racing though. Heck even let the delta wing race.

Edited by mtknot, 06 May 2010 - 13:29.

[snafu]

None of them THEY ALL HAVE FENDERS AND BUMPERS

[cheapracer]

A 3 wheel car or the DW with it's tripod layout has faster yaw gain than a 4 wheeler so technically it will turn in faster than an F1 all other things being equal.

Under steady state and acceleration the tripod car will again out perform an F1

The problem with the layout comes when you transfer weight forward when the car is turning ie; braking and the weight is allowed to shift forward diagonally (no wheel on that corner to support the weight thats why reliant Robins with a high CG fall over so easy).

[Jimisgod]

This makes me feel icky.

Oh, oh I feel sick.

[Lights]

This makes me feel icky.

Out of all the engine sounds they could pick, they went for the washing machine.

[Boing 2]

A 3 wheel car or the DW with it's tripod layout has faster yaw gain than a 4 wheeler so technically it will turn in faster than an F1 all other things being equal.

Under steady state and acceleration the tripod car will again out perform an F1

The problem with the layout comes when you transfer weight forward when the car is turning ie; braking and the weight is allowed to shift forward diagonally (no wheel on that corner to support the weight thats why reliant Robins with a high CG fall over so easy).

A narrow track has virtually no resistance to roll compared to a wider track, even if you made the front end totally rigid you still have a centre of gravity that's as high as the track is wide, which isn't good.

That means the rear end will have to resist all roll, making it very stiff, it also means that to put your roll loads through the rear you'll have to keep all the mass at the rear. You also need to keep the mass well back to keep the centre of gravity well away from the diagonals joining the corners to avoid falling over. (also, any racing car that needs a measure to stop it fallng over!..........well, enoiugh said eh?)

All this means the weight distribution will have to be heavily biased to the rear, the aero centre of pressure will have to match this rear biased centre of gravity which means the front end will have no roll resistance, no mechanical grip and no aero loading. I can't see how that will work.

[Dispenser89]

Delta Wing at Texas

http://www.youtube.c...amp;feature=sub

[whitewaterMkII]

Delta Wing at Texas

http://www.youtube.c...amp;feature=sub

ewww
Now I feel icky...
next up from deltawing inc.
muppets in a sim doing indy.