38 replies to this topic

[mariner]

I think this is one for the North American members but here goes.

Having just finished one home made car I do not think I really have the energy straight away for another and I certainly do not have the money. However the house needs cleaning and one can also do mental design studies ( aka daydreaming) cheaply.

IF I did another home built car I think I would go rear(mid) engined for a number of reasons. The problem with high power , non turbo4 , engine in the back is a suitable transmission set up. You can use a Porsche box and flip it but I was attracted to the now defunct Cadillac STS-V supercharged engine. I appreciate there cannot be too many around but it is pretty powerful at 469 bhp and has clear exhausts as it is supercharged,not turbochrged. I beleive that the same basic Northstar engine was used in several GM fornt wheel drive cars. My source is Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia....r_engine_series

So my thought was to bolt a STS-V 469 bhp engine to one of the auto transmissions that matched the Northstar std. engine and hey presto a 470bhp transverse powerpack complete right to the drive shafts. All you need is a set of fabricated exhausts and cats and off you go. Even better there would be room behind the transverse engine for a luggage boot/trunk as well!

I know autos are boring but I do not see them as a big issue with a high power engine in a light car, so trans. life apart would the combo work?

[McGuire]

A number of mid/rear engine specials have been built with Northstar engines and a GM transverse transaxle. Boyd (RIP) did a street roadster, the Roadstar, in that config while Joe Ida built a replica Tucker with a Northstar out back. Warren Mosler built an Eldorado coupe with engines front and rear -- like a giant twin mini. I'm sure there are more.

I don't know if it would be easier to adapt an STS-V engine (LC3) from its exclusively North/South disposition to East/West or to upgrade a transverse Northstar engine to STS-V tune. I don't know this (though I should) but the blocks might be different to accommodate different mounting systems. But there are people who would know and I can ask them. GM Performance Parts sells the LC3 as a complete crate engine for around USD $11K, which is a bargain if you have a use for one.

[cheapracer]

Oh you gotta hook up with Dan the man, one cool and funny dude!

This Guy is a shoe in for Indycar's next racer!! (skip to page 4 and you'll know what I mean )

http://www.locostusa.......f=18&t=6280

[Greg Locock]

I vaguely remember that Northstar was a bit of a package monster, although nothing like as absurd as the Modular V8.

[cheapracer]

. GM Performance Parts sells the LC3 as a complete crate engine for around USD $11K, which is a bargain if you have a use for one.

Whats your overall score for the NorthStar Mac and could you point me to more pricing info on Chev crate motors please as Mariner isn't the only dreamer round here!

[mariner]

Thanks for the info - now my appetite is bigger than my wallet!

£11K sounds a really good price for a 490 bhp quad cam supercharged engine, I assume the GM ECU to match is extra?

I had not realised how many people had used this powerpack and I had sort of forgotten the Fiero as the base for a strong car.

Now my day dreaming is in gear I think that you could take a Toyota MR2 remove the floorpan and all the stuff behind the engine bulkhead and build a combined roll cage/space frame to hold the Northstar power pack. That way you keep all the body and interior from the B pillar forward and sills upward which probably lets you meet 90% of the safety rules without too much work. You also get a full harness and legal rear lights.

In terms of the Northstar power pack I guess the key questions are sump compatibility to the 4T80 transverse transmission, gear ratios and drive shaft adaptation. As I understand it the supercharged STS-V engine has a block with smaller bores so I think you would buy the crate engine. A possible problem is that the sump seems to hold the main bearings so dry sumping could be hard. Also the STS-V sump ( longtitudinal set-up) might not match the transverse transmission.

In terms of gearing the shortest final drive is 3.71 ( DTS) so with 285/35*17 tires ( about the smallest likely) peak power gives 188 mph so it a bit high geared. What would be very nice is if the trans driveshafts were basically compatible with Corvette C6 hubs. then you get a double wishbone rear suspension and good brake potential all with stock GM parts across the whole drivetrain. The track/car width would probably work out within the flexibilty of custom wheel offset.

So easy peasy (!!!) stock Toyota body electrics and stock GM powertrain and electrics, all it needs is a good spaceframe design,some fibreglass work for the fenders/wings and the rear end plus lots of time/money!!

[cheapracer]

Just use the whole subframe and suspension as Dan did above.

No point in dry sumping it because the sump is one piece integral main caps so your not going to lower it - just use a much much cheap oil accumulater.

[ralt12]

It's worth considering the LS-series GM engines. They're plentiful, have lots of power potential, and are CHEAP compared to virtually any other powerplant. Check eBay under Complete Engines to get an idea of what they go for, then search for "Crate Engines" under Google and you'll have an idea of what the new ones can be had for. The Northstar is a decent engine, but the ability to tailor exactly what you want isn't as good as the LS-series by a long shot.

( http://motors.shop.e...d=p4506.c0.m282 )

The list of aftermarket parts for the series is impressive, and the engine's light weight--under 400 lbs.--make it a great candidate for engine swaps and bespoke construction. While I'm not a big fan of GM (the company), the engine does deliver the goods.

[cheapracer]

and the engine's light weight--under 400 lbs.--

Prefer the ones with cylinder heads and manifolds thanks

[ralt12]

Prefer the ones with cylinder heads and manifolds thanks ;)

Here's 385 lbs, without accessories or flywheel (Note: the oil pan itself is a Canton product, a good deal lighter than factory)--


replacing an iron block/heads combo that weighed in at 665 lbs....

Edited by ralt12, 28 February 2010 - 16:47.

[mariner]

I agree that the small block chevy is the outstanding choice for a high power engine, if you can fit a 24 inch cube box in the engine bay the SB will fit, up to 7 litres and 700bhp off road plus emissions legal world wide for on road - a real classic.

So perfect BUT if you want a mid engine layout I think the Northstar engine/trans is potentially attractive as it is very hard ( as far as I can see) to find near 500 bhp in an emissions legal engine/trans/final drive package. Cheapracers point on an oil accumulator sounds a good high G solution.

I would not use the Northstar subframe and suspension simply because the geometry is very limited by the pre-fixed lower link lengths and camber limitations on moving the strut top point. Also getting high quality dampers onto the stock suspension would be hard I suspect. So I think that any hub designed for a five link or double wishbone linkage is likely to be better in terms of geometry. It does not have to be from a Corvette it is just that a 'vette hub does have double wishbone fitments and is designed around about the required brake size and wheel/tire height. There are probably suitable BMW or MB ones as well.

[McGuire]

I like the LS SBC as much as the next person, but how boring things would be if it were used in every single application to which it were suited.

[Terry Walker]

Dumb question of the year: why is it called Northstar?

[ralt12]

I like the LS SBC as much as the next person, but how boring things would be if it were used in every single application to which it were suited.

I couldn't agree with you more completely. While my particular LS-powered build has been in the works for quite a while, the search for an interesting powerplant for my next project is ongoing. Thinking that electronic fuel injection is highly desirable, and a complete engine management system would be even better, but then that might knock out engines like Ford's 427 SOHC and the 429 Hemi. Would like a V-12, but the limitation becomes the dearth of off-the-shelf aftermarket items (and expertise) for interesting engines. A big fan of naturally aspirated styles, so that limits some areas of power potential.

[imaginesix]

Dumb question of the year: why is it called Northstar?

Because the marketing guys thought it sounded nice.

[ray b]

Northstar bolts to most GM FWD trans inc the getrag 5 speed sticks from a V6
and the new 6 speed sticks too with a custom flywheel and they live if driven sainly
esp if rebuilt/new and/or extreme cold treated
GM dumped a bunch of older brand new stock 6 speeds cheap they are all over E-bay ect
also the q4 getrags 5 speeds [they need a bellhouseing swap] but are priced about scrap for a new trans also on E-bay in mass

auto are ok but not the t80 stock caddy unit
the t80 auto trans used in the stock caddys is very heavy lump at about 300lbs
if you want a auto trans the t65 or t60 is a better pick as there are after market bits made for high power and shift points control
and the t65-t60 are much lighter at about 200 lbs
and is actively raced by the 3800sc guys some overdriven 3800sc make big power esp with NOX added tooo
and there is almost NOTHING for the t80 in the after markets as who drag races a caddy?????????
personally I like a stick but for higher HP use the auto is the way to go

many inc me have swapped the northstar in to Fiero's
getting the motor in place is fairly simple even with a stick
rigging the el-tricks is a far bigger problem
as caddy's CPU wants to see anti-spin anti-lock and a lot of other data steams in real time
inc data from climate control and the anti-theft radio
also the t80 trans is el-trick controlled by the same CPU too
some claim to have hacks for the caddy CPU but to date every one has major flaws
that go into the limp home mode low power far too often

solutions to fuel and spark control vary but many use a older hacked GM CPU esp with a stick with some success
other ideas tryed are holly commander, a older limited aftermarket CPU
mega-squirt+spark home built units
sheby's olds 4.0 control used in the S-1 same motor basicly just 4.0 vs 4.6
even a good old teck 4 barrel carb and custom manifold from CHR

but all the above is for the stock un-supercharged 4.6 northstars
and most swaps use the early pre99 motors as they are cheap and common in junkyards
before the coil on plug and throttle body changes
your getting into unexplored areas with a supercharged unit
I would go with a early northstar and add turbo's or NOX or both

for a rear set up cradle made for GM trans mounts a 88 Fiero is a good and light weight starting point + less bump steer
the getrag bolt right in and the 6 speeds or the auto's bolt in with minor changes to the mounts
only the 88 cars cradle uses a 3 bar non-A-arm links unlike the 84 thru 87's lower a-arm + strut [chapman] design
a 88 cradle does requre some cutting to clear the ext pipes by moving a cross bar
but should be way better then any FWD cradle swap into a rear position and weight is way less then the caddy's stock cradle
I have 13'' vet brakes with adapter plates on my car


btw the northstar has a weak link in the head bolts pulling out of the alloy block
but a heli coil like stronger fix is called time-certs will fix that [solid sleeve insert
my northstar has the time-certs on the head bolts and the main cap bolts too

Edited by ray b, 02 March 2010 - 05:10.

[mariner]

Thank you Ray B very cool info. Are there many Fiero's still for sale in the US or have they all been turned into hot rodded cars?

[ray b]

Thank you Ray B very cool info. Are there many Fiero's still for sale in the US or have they all been turned into hot rodded cars?

there were 300k made over the 84 to 88 run
while getting rarer there are still many stock fiero's running
saddly the best year the last year 88 are the lowest produced [ best brakes and handling of the lot]
but a 88 can be found from semi-junk for 500 or so
with most daily drive types in the 1500-4000 range
up to low mile garage queens in the near new price 10-15000 range
and completed swaps with northstars running for 10 to 20k to way less for 1/2 done project cars

other common swaps inc chevy V8's with a adpter kit in all flavors from stock iron to ls alloy motors
3800sc V6's are very common best cheap HP vs cost swap
4.9 caddy V8 the alloy block pre-northstar pushrod [maybe the best street swap torq monster and CHEAP !!!!
and many other GM V6's of 3100 to 3900 in pushrod motors [the eazyest swaps]
and 3.4 and 3.5 DOHC V6 motors
and 4 bangers from the SD race motor to quad 4 and the newer ecotec 4's

other odd ball swaps inc big blocks rear/mid mounted with older 325/425 auto trans [much cutting and tooo heavy]

and a few pro-street drag only cars with front mounted big blocks

to a ford SHO V8 swap

[mariner]

Thanks, I do remember that some part of GM produced a full space frame racer based on the Fiero with a well tuned Pontiac 4 ( called I think the "iron duke" or something rather similar. I remember that a magazine published a very detailed analysis which practically allowed you to copy the spaceframe tube for tube.

[ray b]

the iron duke aka duck aka the teck4 was the stock old 4 banger made from 1/2 a Pontiac V8 used in the fiero

the race version was called a SUPER DUTY never sold in the cars but as a parts counter add on from the dealers
while the SD was a very good motor it shared no bits with the street iron duke and was very expense as pure race motor tend to be
GM sold the tooling to make the motors and they were used in many class race cars and race boats too
they sold the basic blocks drilled for other CORPs heads too ford and chevys and cosworth made a rare twin cam head too

there are a few of the old IMSA tube frame cars still around and a few people have built new ones too

[McGuire]

the iron duke aka duck aka the teck4 was the stock old 4 banger made from 1/2 a Pontiac V8 used in the fiero

the race version was called a SUPER DUTY never sold in the cars but as a parts counter add on from the dealers
while the SD was a very good motor it shared no bits with the street iron duke and was very expense as pure race motor tend to be
GM sold the tooling to make the motors and they were used in many class race cars and race boats too
they sold the basic blocks drilled for other CORPs heads too ford and chevys and cosworth made a rare twin cam head too

there are a few of the old IMSA tube frame cars still around and a few people have built new ones too

Two different engines: The original Pontiac four was indeed half a Pontiac V8, used in the Tempest 1961-1963 and then discontinued. The Iron Duke/Tech 4 engine was based on the 153 ci Chevy II engine, which was 2/3 of a Chevy inline six. When the Vega 2300 linerless engine laid a giant egg, the old Chevy II engine (very popular in marine, BTW) was dusted off and became the base engine for the Vega and its corporate variants. When the fwd X body came along (79-80) the four-banger was converted to transverse orientation with a cross-flow head... with that very odd-looking valve cover that was nearly impossible to seal.

The Super Duty pieces for the 2.5L were very nice... there was even a DOHC 16-valve version that was used in IMSA Camel Lights. The IMSA GTU Fiero was a well-done deal as well. Elaborate space frame, Huffaker did the chassis if I recall. I had small parts in both those deals but oddly I remember almost nothing about them. In those years GM had a dozen full-blown race programs going at any one time. It was expensive then but today the cost would be astronomical.

[cheapracer]

Here's 385 lbs, without accessories or flywheel (Note: the oil pan itself is a Canton product, a good deal lighter than factory)--


replacing an iron block/heads combo that weighed in at 665 lbs....

Cool, whats the Harley? racebike in the background?

[desmo]

The bit of pie tin primary cover showing looks very XR-750. I'd kind of expect an alloy cover a la Rayborn XRTT on a road racer though.

[ralt12]

I didn't expect to unveil a Bonneville project here, but ok. It's a '75 XR-750TT, with a new AirTech fairing (just in case the salt is....ah... slicker than I imagine.). This particular motor is a '75 built by a fellow named Bill Weibler, out of Gardner Brothers HD in Peoria, Illinois, and he was the wrench for Ronnie Jones (post-Ronnie's Honda years), and I believe had a year with Ricky Graham as well. This particular motor isn't something we expect big things from, as it is an early motor, and we've got a late one in the early building stage that has more grunt. Alloy primary covers for both, but you need to mock up with something, and this is it. The current record for the intended class (APS/PG) is 132+ mph, held by a BMW, and I would think we have a shot at that. Finding the right gears alone has taken the better part of 6 months, as things like a 34-tooth motor sprocket and a 24-tooth primary sprocket weren't popular items when the bike was current, much less now.

[McGuire]

I like the car. What is the chassis going under?

[ralt12]

I like the car. What is the chassis going under?

It's an Art Morrison chassis with 6-pot Wilwoods on the front, 4-pot in the back, four-link suspension in the rear with Strange Bros. NASCAR rear end and axles. It's got a 120.5" wheelbase, so I really don't know what to expect from a handling perspective, though it is certainly going to be different than stock. The only part of the original that carries over is the sheet metal and trim. Seats are from a 70's 2-door Mercedes, steering is an IDIDIT tilt column, gauges are Classic Instruments adapted to the stock pods. Powertrain is a Lingenfelter ASA motor that dyno'd at 440 with LS1 heads and intake; we swapped them out for LS6 bits, so I'd guess we're looking at the neighborhood of 480-510 hp. Trans is a built 4L60E. The car weighs in, without carpet, paint, headliner, or audio at 2694 lbs.
Full build story is here: http://nelson-motors.../studebaker.htm .
It's taken a while to get to this point, just because you continue to refine the concept. Adding or taking away means you have to adjust accordingly. Right now the body is on a rotisserie cleaning up any final bits on the underside, and then it's off to the painter. VERY lucky to find one of these that spent its life in the desert, so it is rust-free.

[OfficeLinebacker]

LOL@ the barefoot kid and the woman with her face in her hands. I can only assume that's his mom.

[ralt12]

Ya gotta start somewhere, eh?

[McGuire]

Wow, nice sheetmetal. You seldom see Studebakers that clean and dry.

[cheapracer]

I didn't expect to unveil a Bonneville project here, but ok. It's a '75 XR-750TT, with a new AirTech fairing (just in case the salt is....ah... slicker than I imagine.). This particular motor is a '75 built by a fellow named Bill Weibler, out of Gardner Brothers HD in Peoria, Illinois, and he was the wrench for Ronnie Jones (post-Ronnie's Honda years), and I believe had a year with Ricky Graham as well. This particular motor isn't something we expect big things from, as it is an early motor, and we've got a late one in the early building stage that has more grunt. Alloy primary covers for both, but you need to mock up with something, and this is it. The current record for the intended class (APS/PG) is 132+ mph, held by a BMW, and I would think we have a shot at that. Finding the right gears alone has taken the better part of 6 months, as things like a 34-tooth motor sprocket and a 24-tooth primary sprocket weren't popular items when the bike was current, much less now.

And for your viewing pleasure..... The Worlds Fastest Indian.

http://stagevu.com/video/pxxizdylljpo

A little gem

Edited by cheapracer, 07 March 2010 - 01:52.

[Canuck]

Amusing - Powered by DivX. DivX is a registered trademark etc etc yet they're streaming someone's movie...

[mariner]

Just to go back for a minute to the original question about the STS-V engine I have found a STS-V with about 4K on it as a damaged repairable in a Brooklyn wrecking yard. I have no connection with them at all BTW!

http://cgi.ebay.com/...=item439dc2943e


I dont live in the US but if I did I think I might be tempted to buy it and extract the 480bhp driveline, the Brembo brakes and hubs and all the electronics to buld a nice kit car. I would imagine you could sell off many of the panels/dash/air con/wheels etc. etc so maybe for $15K you could have all the key bits on your garage floor.

Just a thought!!

[J. Edlund]

Amusing - Powered by DivX. DivX is a registered trademark etc etc yet they're streaming someone's movie...

DivX are just two codecs from DivX, Inc, one MPEG-4 based and the other H.264/MPEG-4 AVC based, used to compress and decompress picture in a video. The codec doesn't care who is owning the video it compresses or decompresses, just like JPEG compression doesn't care about who owns the picture it is used to compress.

Spell DivX backwards and you get XviD, which is the name on another similar MPEG-4 based codec. But unlike DivX XviD is freeware.

[Canuck]

You miss the irony in that.

[venator]

I vaguely remember that Northstar was a bit of a package monster, although nothing like as absurd as the Modular V8.

The Modular V8, if you mean the Ford one, was not nearly as absurd an installation as the Northstar, at least as far as North American production vehicles are concerned.

[Greg Locock]

For many years we have sold a full size car with a V8 in it, usually the Windsor. So the first Modular V8 arrives, the guys in the proto shop drop it in, the ridiculous rocker covers jam on the spring towers. Oh how we laughed.

[gruntguru]

For many years we have sold a full size car with a V8 in it, usually the Windsor. So the first Modular V8 arrives, the guys in the proto shop drop it in, the ridiculous rocker covers jam on the spring towers. Oh how we laughed.

Oxy plus ball pein hammer in four places?

EDIT. Make that two places - the rocker covers were ally no doubt?

Edited by gruntguru, 29 March 2010 - 03:34.

[ralt12]

For many years we have sold a full size car with a V8 in it, usually the Windsor. So the first Modular V8 arrives, the guys in the proto shop drop it in, the ridiculous rocker covers jam on the spring towers. Oh how we laughed.

Doesn't it just figure....that is a wide one..

[Greg Locock]

Oxy plus ball pein hammer in four places?

EDIT. Make that two places - the rocker covers were ally no doubt?

I'm sure they were alloy. I don't know what happened from then on, to be honest, but the project obviously never made it into production.