29 replies to this topic

[Marticelli]

I note that entries are being sought for this year's London to Brighton Veteran Car Run, accompanied by a claim about this being the 'longest running motoring event', which I find difficult to believe. I think the Motor Cycling Club has been running competitive events for both cars and motorcycles since 1901 which is surely longer than the L2B if you discount the original emancipation run of 1896 which started the idea off but wasn't run as an annual event until considerably later. No doubt TNF'rs will have all the data at their fingertips... Martin Shelley

[D-Type]

The first La Turbie hillclimb was held in 1897. is it still run?

The first Shelsley Walsh hillclimb was 1905. And it is still run having had a more or less continuous history

The Indianapolis 500 dates to 1911

On reflection, if you say"Motoring Event" means a non-competitive event, I suppose the field narrows to motor shows and the Goodwood Festival. On that basis they could be right.

[Allan Lupton]

The first Shelsley Walsh hillclimb was 1905. And it is still run having had a more or less continuous history

Motoring Event must surely include competitions and Shelsley at 1905 shows that they can't even claim to be the longest-running in Britain.
Shelsley as a venue only came into use after MAC had difficulties with Sunrising and there is a good case for claiming that the event started in 1902 and changed venue in '05.
Either way the London to Brighton at 1927 was a pretty late entrant - I agree with Martin that the Emancipation Run has nothing to do with the later event which was run to commemorate the 1896 job.

Oh, and edited to ask if the claim is for the longest-running motorsport event as in the title or longest running motoring event as in the first posting? If it's the former I contend that it is not a motorsport event as there is no element of competition.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 28 February 2010 - 22:07.

[Marticelli]

By motorsport event, I mean any competition or test or the like where petrol heads gather on an annual basis for some motorsport purpose. The London to Brighton run is claimed to be the oldest established such event, and I am challenging TNF'rs to find longer running ones. Although the emancipation of the Red Flag Act was celebrated with the first run in 1896, I agree with Allan it only became an annual event much later, although there was pre First War activity sponsoired by the Daily Sketch ran its first Old Crocks' Run which celebrated that first run in 1896. So as an annual event, it really only dates back to 1927 not to Victorian times.

Of course most such events haven't been held during wars or foot and mouth disease outbreaks and other 'force majeur' circumstances, but that shouldn't prevent them being considered eligible.

[fbarrett]

Yes, the distinction between "motoring" and "motorsport" event is important.

Meanwhile, here in Ye Olde Colonyes, the Milwaukee Mile claims to have held an auto race every year since 1903, though I wonder how they managed that during WWII. Sadly, the track's future appears dim at best.

Frank

[Stephen W]

The first Shelsley Walsh hillclimb was 1905. And it is still run having had a more or less continuous history

Yes, the distinction between "motoring" and "motorsport" event is important.

Meanwhile, here in Ye Olde Colonyes, the Milwaukee Mile claims to have held an auto race every year since 1903, though I wonder how they managed that during WWII.

Not only Milwaukee as Shelsley Walsh was 'mothballed' during the two World Wars as hinted at by D-Type.

As for trying the previous hill climbs run by the MAC (Midland Automobile Club) at Sunrising Hill I suppose that you could claim that the club ran their hillclimb events at different venues and therefore the two venues comprise the event! Rather tenuous but so is the premise of the thread.

[D-Type]

I note that entries are being sought for this year's London to Brighton Veteran Car Run, accompanied by a claim about this being the 'longest running motoring event', which I find difficult to believe. I think the Motor Cycling Club has been running competitive events for both cars and motorcycles since 1901 which is surely longer than the L2B if you discount the original emancipation run of 1896 which started the idea off but wasn't run as an annual event until considerably later. No doubt TNF'rs will have all the data at their fingertips... Martin Shelley

Come to think of it, back when WB still edited Motor Sport, he used to have occasional items titled "The things they say..." and this fits the bill precisely.

[HDonaldCapps]

Given that The Great War of 1914-18 and the World War of 1939-45 most likely put an end to any claims for an event to be held continuously since the dawn of motoring, perhaps the question is which event is still being held with the least interruptions since that time; otherwise, the clock begins with 1946.

The term "motorsport event" needs to be operationally defined as to exactly what sort of "contest" counts as a "motorsport" event. A hill climb or a race seems to be what is being sought, rather than a reliability or endurance contest or a "run" which seems to be what the L2B actually seems to be.

[Marticelli]

By motorsport event, I mean any competition or test or the like where petrol heads gather on an annual basis for some motorsport purpose. ...... ......

Of course most such events haven't been held during wars or foot and mouth disease outbreaks and other 'force majeur' circumstances, but that shouldn't prevent them being considered eligible.

I think I covered the eventuality of interruptions due to wars etc in my earlier post, Don...

Likewise I think the broadest definition of a motorsport event is what I meant. Of course the L2B is marginal as its strictly not a competitve event, although not all drivers on the run seem to be aware of this, given the almost indecent haste with which some of them conduct themselves in the 'race' to be first into Madeira Drive!!

Edited by Marticelli, 03 March 2010 - 08:49.

[Barry Boor]

Not in the truest sense of this thread but not wanting to start another 'longest' thread, way in the future people will look at the 2010 South Korean Grand Prix and see that the winner took 2 hours and 48 minutes.

I can just imagine the discussion on TNF in 2050 about this incredibly long race.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
.....in the future people will look at the 2010 South Korean Grand Prix and see that the winner took 2 hours and 48 minutes.

I can just imagine the discussion on TNF in 2050 about this incredibly long race.

That would surely be in a thread where the Indy 500 was noted to have started, been crashed and rained out, then finished two or three days later?

[Tim Murray]

2 hours 48 min 20.810 sec. This makes it the 51st-longest World Championship race ever (41st-longest if we ignore the Indy 500 events):

http://www.statsf1.c...mps/leplus.aspx

but it is the longest for over 50 years.

[Kevan]

I think I covered the eventuality of interruptions due to wars etc in my earlier post, Don...

Likewise I think the broadest definition of a motorsport event is what I meant. Of course the L2B is marginal as its strictly not a competitve event, although not all drivers on the run seem to be aware of this, given the almost indecent haste with which some of them conduct themselves in the 'race' to be first into Madeira Drive!!

I think it does come down very much to how we define 'motorsport event' and 'longest running'- the first thought to cross my mind was the RAC Tourist Trophy (1905-), but can we actually count this as a single event with a continuous history, given that it's been held at several different circuits over the years, and has been interrupted a number of times apart from the inevitable wartime disruptions?
http://en.wikipedia...._Tourist_Trophy

Edited by Kevan, 24 October 2010 - 10:21.

[Geoff E]

Motoring Event must surely include competitions and Shelsley at 1905 shows that they can't even claim to be the longest-running in Britain.
Shelsley as a venue only came into use after MAC had difficulties with Sunrising and there is a good case for claiming that the event started in 1902 and changed venue in '05.

Before Shelsley, the MAC's events were held at

Gorcott Hill (1901, 1902)
Weatheroak Hill (1902)
Sunrising Hill (1903 (2), 1904)
Middle Hill (1905)

[arttidesco]

Yes, the distinction between "motoring" and "motorsport" event is important.

Meanwhile, here in Ye Olde Colonyes, the Milwaukee Mile claims to have held an auto race every year since 1903, though I wonder how they managed that during WWII. Sadly, the track's future appears dim at best.

Frank

IIR my history correctly the WW1 lasted 1916 - 18 and WW2 42 - 45 for the US, I suspect the US could keep racing through WW2 because a) there was no real threat of invasion on the mainland and b) races were probably seen as a great recruiting stations.

[Bloggsworth]

The daily Traffic Light Grand Prix.....

[HistoryFan]

2 hours 48 min 20.810 sec. This makes it the 51st-longest World Championship race ever (41st-longest if we ignore the Indy 500 events):

http://www.statsf1.c...mps/leplus.aspx

but it is the longest for over 50 years.

Thank you very much!

Since when dis the 2-hours-rule existing?

[Tim Murray]

Since when dis the 2-hours-rule existing?

It was introduced in 1973, I think. The 1973 FIA Year Book said this:

The duration of F1 Championship events shall be 200 miles or two hours, whichever is the shorter.

In the 1971 book the minimum distance for single-heat Championship F1 races was specified as 250 miles and the maximum 325 miles. I don't have the 1972 book, but Beltoise's win at Monaco in that year took 2 hours 26 min, so the earlier rules must still have been in force.

Edited by Tim Murray, 24 October 2010 - 17:51.

[Rob29]

IIR my history correctly the WW1 lasted 1916 - 18 and WW2 42 - 45 for the US, I suspect the US could keep racing through WW2 because a) there was no real threat of invasion on the mainland and b) races were probably seen as a great recruiting stations.

I dont think they did.Indy 500 missed 1917-18 & 1942-45 making it oldest and most often held suviving race?

[Geoff E]

2 hours 48 min 20.810 sec. This makes it the 51st-longest World Championship race ever (41st-longest if we ignore the Indy 500 events):

http://www.statsf1.c...mps/leplus.aspx

but it is the longest for over 50 years.

I suppose the fact that they were stationary for three quarters of an hour would have something to do with that. At 110.2kph, I think it may rank 11th slowest ever http://www.statsf1.c...ne/lemoins.aspx

[Ray Bell]

Originally posed by arttidesco
.....I suspect the US could keep racing through WW2 because a) there was no real threat of invasion on the mainland and b) races were probably seen as a great recruiting stations.

And undoubtedly aided by the fact that there was plenty of fuel available in their own country...

All petroleum fuels in Australia, for instance, every last drop of them, had to be imported. Petrol rationing continued quite severely right up until the eve of the 1949 Australian Grand Prix. During the war, if you owned a small car you got a ration of about 4 gallons a month.

Actually, I should put this here because it needs to be put somewhere. My father told me years ago that the Chev 4 was the ideal car to have in the war... petrol was rationed according to 'rated' horsepower (based on cylinder bore etc, otherwise known as RAC horsepower) and the Chev 4 was of such an engine size and good enough on fuel that it got a reasonable ration and took it further than other cars.

There were also rules about usage. You weren't supposed to store your petrol, save it up for a big month, or give it to others. So people who were found to be some distance from home and still driving (without gas producers) were frequently asked to explain how they got there.

As the North Sea oil had yet to be tapped, I guess pretty much all of Europe had the same dilemma, though the USSR probably had supplies.

[Vitesse2]

IIR my history correctly the WW1 lasted 1916 - 18 and WW2 42 - 45 for the US, I suspect the US could keep racing through WW2 because a) there was no real threat of invasion on the mainland and b) races were probably seen as a great recruiting stations.

During World War 2 motor racing was officially banned in the USA between August 1st 1942 and November 7th 1944.

[wenoopy]

If we are looking for the longest continuous run of an annual event, without any concession being made for war years, then my vote would be for the Indianapolis 500, which has been run every year from 1946 to date. The Italian GP has been run every year from 7 September 1947 to date, and an Australian GP every year from 6 October 1947 onward. What was the date of the 1946 Milwaukee event? Earlier than Memorial Day?

[Tim Murray]

What was the date of the 1946 Milwaukee event? Earlier than Memorial Day?

It ran on 22nd September 1946, the track having reopened in June. So the Indy 500 has it, unless someone knows better?

[arttidesco]

During World War 2 motor racing was officially banned in the USA between August 1st 1942 and November 7th 1944.

I stand corrected

[smitten]

It ran on 22nd September 1946, the track having reopened in June. So the Indy 500 has it, unless someone knows better?

The Manx GP was restarted in September 1946 so is also a contender. (but I don't have the actual date)

[Tim Murray]

That still wouldn't pre-date the Indianapolis 500, which ran on Memorial Day (30th May) 1946.

[HistoryFan]

It was introduced in 1973, I think. The 1973 FIA Year Book said this:


In the 1971 book the minimum distance for single-heat Championship F1 races was specified as 250 miles and the maximum 325 miles. I don't have the 1972 book, but Beltoise's win at Monaco in that year took 2 hours 26 min, so the earlier rules must still have been in force.

Thank you!

[milestone 11]

The Manx GP was restarted in September 1946 so is also a contender. (but I don't have the actual date)

I'd thought about that as well, but it too was cancelled in 2001 because of the foot and mouth outbreak in the U.K.

[smitten]

I'd thought about that as well, but it too was cancelled in 2001 because of the foot and mouth outbreak in the U.K.

Didn't realise that - you live and learn